Northern Rail: The most cynical TOC out there?

[scipiiouse]

So, I posted a while back about this faredodging letter I received (no response yet), and it seems they've had a long history of being draconian to those who have committed minor offences. However, some more things arose to my attention:

- The fact their services have too few carriages (I've yet to get a seat on my daily communte)

- Their trains are never on time (Almost every day the train gets in at least 5 minutes late)

- Their carriages are old, dirty and poorly maintained (I along with several other commuters almost missed our stop because the door wouldn't open)

- They seem to be understaffed (There was a fuss because London Midland wouldn't travel without guards, but I VERY rarely see them at all on Northern Rail)

Anyway.

I was buying a ticket earlier from Mauldeth road to Manchester Piccadilly when I noticed a petition: Northern Rail have trains go from Mauldeth to Piccadilly every half hour, but they're intending to schedule the 9:30 service to arrive at 9:29 so commuters have to buy peak tickets (twice the price), though knowing Northern Rail, it'll probably still arrive at 9:35. I know they're legally allowed to do this, but really?

Although the guards can be quite pleasant, but the management seem to not give a fig about customer satisfaction. Their off-peak trains are usually overcrowded and despite paying double at 8:30, anyone getting on at Mauldeth Road can forget about getting a seat. On top of this, they have a policy of turning honest mistakes into an exploitable resource.

I'm not sure if it is the case, but I'm fairly sure offering a decent service for a price is meant to go both ways: If you pay a cinema £8.90 to see a film, you'd be outraged if they put you in a poorly maintained cinema and made you stand in the aisle. They're not upholding their end of the bargain, and it seems that they don't care at all.

I'm probably just venting, but any thoughts?

 

[Eagle]

Okay, firstly, timetabling is nothing to do with Northern Rail, so it's not their doing that the service comes one minute too soon to be usable on an off-peak ticket.

Secondly, re the overcrowding, you do know that Northern has a chronic shortage of decent stock in the peaks? Honestly, if they had any longer or better trains available they'd be using them. (And before you say why don't they order some more trains, realize that that takes years. And lots of money.) Hopefully the electrification works in the coming years will mean there's more stock available in the north.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I'm not sure if it is the case, but I'm fairly sure offering a decent service for a price is meant to go both ways: If you pay a cinema £8.90 to see a film, you'd be outraged if they put you in a poorly maintained cinema and made you stand in the aisle. They're not upholding their end of the bargain, and it seems that they don't care at all.

I'm probably just venting, but any thoughts?

I'll let someone else deal with the rest as I don't have time at the moment (UCAS will be the death of me ), however I should point out that buying a train ticket doesn't entitle you to a seat. I'm uncertain of the law overseeing cinema, but I assume there for H&S reasons it would, so I don't think it's a valid comparison.

 

[Wath Yard]

All of your points are either incorrect or predictable:

1. Whether their services have too few carriages or is subjective. They have more than they used to and the franchise was let on a no growth basis. They have invested some money but no company is going to invest heavily without a return, and the structure of the franchise meant this was never going to happen. Why do you expect a seat at peak times? I didn't expect or usually get one when I commuted into London and SWT had plenty of carriages.

2. Nonsense. No TOC's services are never on time. Northern's MAA PPM is 91.7%.

3. They're a bit grubby and that is partly Northern's fault but also partly linked to point 1 where the franchise was let on a no growth and no investment basis, therefore they haven't had overhauls like several other TOCs whose franchises were let differently.

4. As far as I'm aware all Northern services have guards. Not seeing one doesn't mean the service doesn't have one.

As for 'On top of this, they have a policy of turning honest mistakes into an exploitable resource.'

Northern have posters at most or all of their staffed stations stating that tickets must be purchased before boarding. If people decide that doesn't apply to them and they suffer the consequencies then tough.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

All of your points are either incorrect or predictable:

1. Whether their services have too few carriages or is subjective. They have more than they used to and the franchise was let on a no growth basis. They have invested some money but no company is going to invest heavily without a return, and the structure of the franchise meant this was never going to happen. Why do you expect a seat at peak times? I didn't expect or usually get one when I commuted into London and SWT had plenty of carriages.

2. Nonsense. No TOC's services are never on time. Northern's MAA PPM is 91.7%.

3. They're a bit grubby and that is partly Northern's fault but also partly linked to point 1 where the franchise was let on a no growth and no investment basis, therefore they haven't had overhauls like several other TOCs whose franchises were let differently.

4. As far as I'm aware all Northern services have guards. Not seeing one doesn't mean the service doesn't have one.

As for 'On top of this, they have a policy of turning honest mistakes into an exploitable resource.'

Northern have posters at most or all of their staffed stations stating that tickets must be purchased before boarding. If people decide that doesn't apply to them and they suffer the consequencies then tough.

Excellent post Wath

 

[YorkshireBear]

Just to add, the carriages are often dirty because they dont have time to clean them because they think having longer trains is more important!
Ill tell you what, they will cancel your train to make sure its clean.

Northern was let on no growth and growth has been around the 25% mark i believe over the last 8 Years so do the maths.

 

[PR1Berske]

They're not cynical, they're just incompetent. Worst TOC I have ever experienced, and from my friends on Facebook and Twitter, worst TOC by miles (which is ironic, because their shaky carriages rarely make it miles)

I've been silenced and censored for criticising them on this forum so I'll just leave it there.

 

[Yew]

Its ashame that some money cant be made available to give a good refurbish to Northerns better stock though.

I've not noticed off peak trains being too crowded, alright if there is an event on at a nearby city, it can be a bit. Unless you are thinking about the 'shoulder peak' services? Thats something that is common with virgin too?

 

[eastdyke]

...

I'm probably just venting, but any thoughts?

At the highest level, railway investment and organisation is in the hands of politicians.

Clearly TOC's have some latitude for the day to day operations and administration within their Franchise and are monitored on a range of performance indicators from Safety to Punctuality to Customer Satisfaction. Whilst at the same time a Board of Directors will be expected by Parent Companies or Shareholders to deliver a profit. Crowding Statistics are also reported (although how accurate they are may be subject to some debate.)

Passengers are invited in the first instance to raise issues with Customer Relations at Northern.

You could also discuss your issues, and any response from Northern, with the Elected Member on your Local County (or Metropolitan) Council and/or your Member of Parliament.

 

[Goatboy]

Okay, firstly, timetabling is nothing to do with Northern Rail

The timetable has nothing to do with the operator? Really? Whilst I'm sure it has more to do with Network Rail than anyone else it quite obviously doesn't have nothing to do with the operator that runs the service.

 

[scipiiouse]

At the highest level, railway investment and organisation is in the hands of politicians.

Clearly TOC's have some latitude for the day to day operations and administration within their Franchise and are monitored on a range of performance indicators from Safety to Punctuality to Customer Satisfaction. Whilst at the same time a Board of Directors will be expected by Parent Companies or Shareholders to deliver a profit. Crowding Statistics are also reported (although how accurate they are may be subject to some debate.)

Passengers are invited in the first instance to raise issues with Customer Relations at Northern.

You could also discuss your issues, and any response from Northern, with the Elected Member on your Local County (or Metropolitan) Council and/or your Member of Parliament.

I've sent a list of complaints to the Rail Watchdog, though idk what they can really do.

I don't know about that timing thing... the only train time they are changing is the 9:30 one. The rest are to remain the same.

Is it actually true that they don't have an obligation to keep the trains clean?

 

[LexyBoy]

Agree with eastdyke- although it doesn't excuse everything, the biggest issues aren't within Northern's power to control.

I don't have much cause to travel with them due to my location, but when I have it's been a decent experience. Guards present and available, which is more than can be said for much of the south, and at Leeds the train I was on had the windows washed, which I've certainly not witnessed down here!

My main gripe with Northern - and again not from personal experience - is the way they have suddenly changed to a much tougher policy on ticketless travel, after years of cultivating acceptance of buying on board.

 

[cuccir]

My main gripe with Northern - and again not from personal experience - is the way they have suddenly changed to a much tougher policy on ticketless travel, after years of cultivating acceptance of buying on board.

I thought the topic was going to be on this theme - I think that their actions, particularly in the Greater Manchester, are very dodgy. If they want to cut down on ticket-less travel then that's clearly fine, but they've not put the effort into providing purchasing facilities, or informing passengers who have long bought tickets on-board, including from staffed stations.

As for their services - with the exception of stock quality, which is partly out of their control, I've nothing but praise.

 

[scipiiouse]

They get people done for not having a ticket on the train? Whenever I've travelled there's been Northern Rail Guards selling tickets at Piccadilly.

In fact, If I hadn't bought a picket I wouldn't have got a letter through the post about Faredodging.

 

[RJ]

So, I posted a while back about this faredodging letter I received (no response yet), and it seems they've had a long history of being draconian to those who have committed minor offences. However, some more things arose to my attention:

- The fact their services have too few carriages (I've yet to get a seat on my daily communte)

- Their trains are never on time (Almost every day the train gets in at least 5 minutes late)

- Their carriages are old, dirty and poorly maintained (I along with several other commuters almost missed our stop because the door wouldn't open)

- They seem to be understaffed (There was a fuss because London Midland wouldn't travel without guards, but I VERY rarely see them at all on Northern Rail)

.....

I'm probably just venting, but any thoughts?

Yes - if they're that bad, don't use their services!

 

[Deerfold]

Northern do seem to vary vastly across their area.

I travel every week on the line between Skipton and Leeds. My train is usually clean (though in a morning it's one of the first of the day so there's less chance for people to dirty them up) and on time. We're also lucky enough to have some of the newest electric trains in the north (10 years old). They're usually a decent length though on occasion I don't get a seat - usually that only happens in the peak or on one of the last 2 trains in an evening (the last is always very busy and the second to last is usuallly an ancient 2-carriage diesel that struggles to keep to the timetable - that one is annoying as I have a 2 minute connection off it to my last bus that usually fails).

And a high proportion of travellers pay on the train towards Leeds (helped by the fact that the ticket office hasn't opened at Keighley by the time it leaves). It's unusual for me not to see a guard but common for it not to be until the long stretch between Shipley and Leeds as they have so many tickets to sell.

 

[Goatboy]

Yes - if they're that bad, don't use their services!

Exactly, the great thing about privatisation is that you can simply use another operator for any journey you wish to make

 

[snail]

worst TOC by miles (which is ironic, because their shaky carriages rarely make it miles)

How do they get 91% of their trains to arrive on time then? If you think Northern are bad I'm guessing that you didn't experience the glory days of First North Western.

 

[northwichcat]

Okay, firstly, timetabling is nothing to do with Northern Rail, so it's not their doing that the service comes one minute too soon to be usable on an off-peak ticket.

That's not a good argument.

1. Northern may be restricted to what times they can operate by other operators but they can quite often move train times by 1 minute where there is a need to do so. A couple of years back they re-timetabled the first Mid-Cheshire service to be 1 minute earlier to officially connect with a London train at Stockport following feedback they'd received.

2. The off-peak period usually starts at 09:30 but Northern can tweak that. Buxton passengers benefit from being able to use off-peak tickets on a pre-09:30 departure.

 

[tbtc]

Given that Northern run over 90% of their services on time and that over 70% of peak arrivals in Manchester (the city that the OP is complaining about) have spare seats on board, I'm not sure how much more can be done (realistically).

If the OP wants to complain about something then I'd complain about the daft situation which sees their local line electrified but the majority of services are diesel trains that avoid the local stations between Manchester and its Airport (because we are more focussed on giving everywhere in northern England a direct Airport train than to actually serve suburban lines). That's not Northern's fault though, and has been the case for many years.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That's not a good argument.

1. Northern may be restricted to what times they can operate by other operators but they can quite often move train times by 1 minute where there is a need to do so.

The line that the OP is talking about has something like eight trains an hour (most of which are "fast" and don't stop at his station), so there's not a lot of scope for Northern to tweak the times).

Somewhere has to have a service just before the cut off I guess.

 

[Roverman]

Exactly, the great thing about privatisation is that you can simply use another operator for any journey you wish to make

Within reason. I imagine there are parts of the country where there may only be one TOC operating the vast majority of services especially if one was only travelling a short distance, say from one side of a county to another.

 

[northwichcat]

over 70% of peak arrivals in Manchester (the city that the OP is complaining about) have spare seats on board

Is that just for Northern services or including other operator's services like the Virgin Pendolinos, which have plenty of spare capacity on northbound services in the morning peak?

It's also quite common for official passenger counts to be done based on the loading on arrival in Manchester in the morning peak. That gets the highest number on services which have come from Buxton or Bolton but is an ineffective method of counting on the Manchester-Warrington-Liverpool line and the Manchester-Altrincham-Chester line.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The line that the OP is talking about has something like eight trains an hour (most of which are "fast" and don't stop at his station), so there's not a lot of scope for Northern to tweak the times).

On stoppers an 09:29 time can mean different things. The arrival time may be 09:28:30 meaning the departure time is 09:29:00 or it may be 09:29:00 arrival and 09:29:30 departure, so it could only be a 30 second tweak.

Northern once managed a 3 minute tweak on a peak time Crewe-Manchester stopper which they originally timetabled to be 323 operated but due to the Congleton incident they realised they wouldn't have enough 323s and switched it to a pair of 142s requiring a slightly extended journey time.

 

[beeza1]

Exactly, the great thing about privatisation is that you can simply use another operator for any journey you wish to make

Is it? exactly how does one get from Huddersfield to say Barnsley or Sheffield, or anywhere else along the Penistone Line without using Northern? that's only one example.This line is particularly bad with regards to rolling stock, first time I met my mates at Sheffield for the journey back to Hudds they thought I was taking them on a heritage line the train was so old and decrepit, mind you they are used to London Midland and Chiltern to provide their local services, oh if only Northern were like that!

 

[bb21]

Within reason. I imagine there are parts of the country where there may only be one TOC operating the vast majority of services especially if one was only travelling a short distance, say from one side of a county to another.

Is it? exactly how does one get from Huddersfield to say Barnsley or Sheffield, or anywhere else along the Penistone Line without using Northern? that's only one example.This line is particularly bad with regards to rolling stock, first time I met my mates at Sheffield for the journey back to Hudds they thought I was taking them on a heritage line the train was so old and decrepit, mind you they are used to London Midland and Chiltern to provide their local services, oh if only Northern were like that!

I sense a hint of sarcasm in his post.

 

[Eagle]

There are other operators between Mauldeth Road and Piccadilly though. Such as Stagecoach Manchester and Arriva Northwest.

 

[Fuming]

Yes - if they're that bad, don't use their services!

ridiculous statement. They have an ignorance to a basic service at my station as I've posted in a recent topic. Not going to go through it all here again, but I happen to live near a railway station that can get me into Mcr Victoria within 20 minutes. If a service could compete with Northern, offering more ticket booths at peak times, I'd literally throw my money at them because Northern are a failure at even providing a working chip and pin machine (internet searches tell me it costs £20 a month to rent one).

Northern have you by the wotsits - they have a franchise, so my only other choice is either car or bus. If the franchise didn't exist and a competitor offered a train service 5 minutes later than the Northern train, I know which one I'd be on.

 

[scipiiouse]

ridiculous statement. They have an ignorance to a basic service at my station as I've posted in a recent topic. Not going to go through it all here again, but I happen to live near a railway station that can get me into Mcr Victoria within 20 minutes. If a service could compete with Northern, offering more ticket booths at peak times, I'd literally throw my money at them because Northern are a failure at even providing a working chip and pin machine (internet searches tell me it costs £20 a month to rent one).

Northern have you by the wotsits - they have a franchise, so my only other choice is either car or bus. If the franchise didn't exist and a competitor offered a train service 5 minutes later than the Northern train, I know which one I'd be on.

Yeah. At home, 90% of the services to my nearest town are London Midland, and here the vast majority are Northern Rail. Mauldeth road is pretty much a commuter station. If I ever travel from my home station to Mauldeth, I take a Cross Country train which travels past Mauldeth to Piccadilly, at which point I have to take a Northern Rail service back in the same direction.

 

[Clip]

They're not cynical, they're just incompetent. Worst TOC I have ever experienced, and from my friends on Facebook and Twitter, worst TOC by miles (which is ironic, because their shaky carriages rarely make it miles)

I've been silenced and censored for criticising them on this forum so I'll just leave it there.

Travel on any TOC for a sustained period of time and you would be saying the same about them.

 

[scrapy]

How do they get 91% of their trains to arrive on time then? .

By adding in plenty of padding at the end of the journey. They are not the only TOC to do this though. Journey times on many routes are several minutes longer than they were under First North Western, with this added time between the last two stops. 91% of trains are not on time, they are not more than 5 minutes late.

Is this thread really anything to do with fares, tickets or routing?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In fact, If I hadn't bought a picket .....

Sounds just like the old days of "secondary action" in industrial disputes...