Anti-social behaviour on DOO services - what can be done?

[Butts]

Are you an actually an RPI? If you are, I'm surprised you've said what you have.

Firstly, do you honestly not believe there's a reason why most Guard don't do tickets on Friday and Saturday nights beyond 'not giving a ****'? What happens when the lone Guard inevitably comes across the first drunk or 'Gangsta', or group of the aforementioned, who won't pay? They'll either just take the verbal/physical abuse while they wait for the Police, or have to go to the back cab and let the network ground to a halt while they wait for the police, who won't turn up (either BTP or Local) because current resources can't even cope with the current situation. If your 'Guard at all hours' system came about, no suburban trains would move on a Friday or Saturday night.

As Flamingo has pointed out, there is little incentive to do tickets at the best of times in most TOCs nowadays, let alone on Friday or Saturday nights. Those who delay trains are spoken too by management, not those who don't do loads of tickets. Those who get in conflict are given little sympathy at best and blamed for the trouble at worst, whether guilty or not. Fare evaders can't be touched, let alone thrown off the using the reasonable force the byelaws allow. Those who take it upon themselves to deal with fare evaders in such a way face the sack, even if the Guard's actions are commended by the BTP.

I also take issue with your "a lot of guards are simply button pushers who don't patrol the train" comment. If the recent jailing of the Guard in Liverpool has proven anything it is that the role certainly isn't just 'button pushing', even when the Guard is just working from the back cab doing their core job, the only job that TOC managers really seem to care about (rightly IMO), ensuring the safe and punctual running of the train.

So in conclusion, though you might be disgruntled by suburban Guards not getting themselves knocked out in the 2 or 3 minutes between stations on Friday or Saturday nights, most TOCs seemingly don't agree that they're doing much wrong. Also, if TOCs were more bothered about revenue, maybe they'd employ some RPIs &/or security to patrol trains beyond the early evening, or even just man ticket barriers at major stations...

EDIT: Just a tip for any Guards (or even brave members of the public ), a good way to deal with on train smokers without conflict is to inform the idiot/scroat, in a slightly alarmed/concerned fashion, that they need to put it out as if the smoke gets into the smoke detectors the train breaks will come on and we'll be stuck until an engineer (fitter doesn't work, too railway dictionary) comes out to reset it. This has always worked for me, though I do fancy my own acting skills. :P

I think you are a better "sniper" - that hit the target

Forget the acting - the bull about the smoke detector wouldn't fool a four year old
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I guess you haven't visited Newcastle Central recently and stood in the portico...

If you mean that area outside that the taxis run from I have seen people smoking there.

Believe it or not I go "outside"
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Erm, cos they were busy maybe?


Im not attacking smokers here as I am one myself but I have manners in as much that should someone be coughing when im smoking ill move away or put it out.

You have chosen the "dark side" Clip

Seriously a lot of these "coughings" are a put on. Try a cruise ship where they deliberately walk through a smoking area in order to be able to do it.

Five years ago the same people would have sat in a smokey pub and not said a dickie bird

 

[transmanche]

If you mean that area outside that the taxis run from I have seen people smoking there.

Yes, despite the many no smoking signs, they still smoke there. And it's part of the station...

 

[BrownE]

If the guard stays in the cab, they won't have complaints from people who they charge tickets to, they won't get involved in anything that causes them to have to do incident forms, and they won't be called in for a "little chat" about their attitude.

So you would advocate a South Eastern approach? If you are not aware, staff are expected to be visible on the train (dispatching from one of the rear(ish) passenger doors [not the cab]). This expectation is maintained even on the busiest of services, the only exception being when you fear for your personal safety (at which point, I'm told you have to write a report).

(SE are really pushing "Safety is our number one priority" (for passengers).)

 

[Clip]

You have chosen the "dark side" Clip

Seriously a lot of these "coughings" are a put on. Try a cruise ship where they deliberately walk through a smoking area in order to be able to do it.

Five years ago the same people would have sat in a smokey pub and not said a dickie bird

Oh I love smoking me - its great.

and whilst a lot of the coughings are probably put on I do just generally move. What makes me laugh though is when Im stood in a designated smoking area and people still moan!! Still thats another rant on another thread

 

[Butts]

Yes, despite the many no smoking signs, they still smoke there. And it's part of the station...

Because it's a stupid rule - Newcastle has wide open areas that are uncovered inside - allow people to smoke there and you remove the problem.

Next you'll be telling me you never break the speed limit despite seeing the sign advertising it

 

[WestCoast]

I think the visible or perhaps audible presence of a guard may deter lower level anti-social behaviour, but that's only true to a certain extent. We must all agree that the vast majority of guards don't want to be bouncers and certain people will cause trouble no matter who is onboard.

An example of good practice I've seen abroad is when security teams accompany guards and/or inspectors on higher risk services - although the networks I am referring to don't spend vast sums on gatelines (which are often left open at higher risk times here despite a strong link between fare evasion and ASB!). I know TOCs such as Merseyrail have a number of "bylaw enforcement officers" or suchlike, but it's just a token gesture really.

 

[transmanche]

Because it's a stupid rule - Newcastle has wide open areas that are uncovered inside - allow people to smoke there and you remove the problem.

Really? You think people alighting from trains will walk to an open area at the end of a platform to smoke a tab before leaving the station? Or will they just continue to smoke in the portico - an enclosed work place where smoking is prohibited by general legislation, not railway bye law.

Next you'll be telling me you never break the speed limit despite seeing the sign advertising it

Only once that I'm aware of. Getting to 31mph on a cycle isn't easy. (And before you ask; yes, I do observe traffic lights, one-way streets and banned turns... it's really not that hard to do.)

 

[Butts]

Really? You think people alighting from trains will walk to an open area at the end of a platform to smoke a tab before leaving the station? Or will they just continue to smoke in the portico - an enclosed work place where smoking is prohibited by general legislation, not railway bye law.

Only once that I'm aware of. Getting to 31mph on a cycle isn't easy. (And before you ask; yes, I do observe traffic lights, one-way streets and banned turns... it's really not that hard to do.)

Touche.....

How did you manage before 2007 ?

 

[transmanche]

How did you manage before 2007 ?

TBH, people smoking in the portico wouldn't bother me too much... except when they get in the way and I have to walk through a cloud of smoke - which is sadly most of the time. The fact is, it's not allowed and it's only a few metres walk to a place where you can smoke - outside in the street, like you do. It's a simple rule and it's really not hard to obey - so it should be a no-brainer.

It's like when you're a kid and your mum tells you not to do something: it doesn't matter why, or if you don't agree with it... you just don't do it!

 

[the sniper]

Forget the acting - the bull about the smoke detector wouldn't fool a four year old

Maybe not a 4 year old, but I have used this method twice and it worked both times, their fags went quickly out of the window (hasn't happened on windowless stock yet ). Neither of them seemed as smart as a 4 year old though, to be fair!

Take into account that most people are completely ignorant of all things railway, even things that are just common sense. For example, I know I'm not the only person at my depot who's been understood to be the driver of the train, either while stood in/next to the back or middle cab of a double set, or more surprisingly while checking tickets on a train in motion... 'Go back and drive your train' is one of my favourite things that I've had a fare evader say to me.

 

[313103]

ANTI SOCIAL BEHAVIOR ON DOO SERVICES -WHAT CAN BE DONE?

Strange how these threads manifest themselves, we started off on the DOO aspect of the railways, it has since spread, to em compose, manned and unmanned stations, non DOO trains, the law, Government legislation, Railway bye Laws, Network Rail, Companies polices on utilisation of staff.

Perhaps the thread should be renamed Anti Social Behavior.

The only issue i have about smoking on a station that is in open air is that you dont come and stand or sit near me, especially if i am working the train.your clothes and skin reek of the stuff. Trust me i know virtually all my family use to smoke, so much so that people thought that i smoked! It was a good excuse to have a shower when i got home though.

 

[GodAtum]

I best TOC I've experienced for checking tickets is funnily FGW. Although they should do more checks in the evening rather then the morning.

 

[Deerfold]

Seriously a lot of these "coughings" are a put on. Try a cruise ship where they deliberately walk through a smoking area in order to be able to do it.

As, I say, I don't expect a lot of sympathy from a smoker - they do assume we're just trying to annoy them rather than stay healthy ourselves.

I've never been on a cruise ship and I don't cough deliberately. I don't always cough - the restriction of my airways varies in the exact effects.
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I read that as ATOC saying: 'Whatever makes our life simpler wins. Smokers are a minority with no specific rights. We can can be as mean to them as we like.'

As opposed to the early years of my life which could be summed up as "Non-smokers have no rights to clean air, be prepared to breathe in cigarette fumes anywhere you may want to go".

The chief difference between smokers and many other minorities is that there was an element of choice in your joining it. Although you may now be addicted and have trouble giving up, presumably you chose to start.

 

[Butts]

As, I say, I don't expect a lot of sympathy from a smoker - they do assume we're just trying to annoy them rather than stay healthy ourselves.

I've never been on a cruise ship and I don't cough deliberately. I don't always cough - the restriction of my airways varies in the exact effects.
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As opposed to the early years of my life which could be summed up as "Non-smokers have no rights to clean air, be prepared to breathe in cigarette fumes anywhere you may want to go".

The chief difference between smokers and many other minorities is that there was an element of choice in your joining it. Although you may now be addicted and have trouble giving up, presumably you chose to start.

I'm not sure how old you are but smoking was quite heavily restricted prior to the ban for at least 15-20 years.

ie No Smoking carriages in Trains

No or limited smoking on Bus

Aircraft No smoking

Restaurants No smoking or a small section

A lot of workplaces and Offices a dedicated smoking room

You may find the situation you described for non-smokers prior to the ban more accurately reflects the situation for smokers today.

It seems a medical anomaly you are so sensitive to cigarette smoke yet not exhaust emmissions or indeed smoke from "Steam Trains"

 

[Eagle]

It seems a medical anomaly you are so sensitive to cigarette smoke yet not exhaust emmissions or indeed smoke from "Steam Trains"

Being as they contain completely different chemicals, it's easily possible. In particular the aerosolized tar (which is not present in exhaust fumes) is what sets people's allergies off.

(Trust me, I'm an organic chemist.)

 

[Butts]

Being as they contain completely different chemicals, it's easily possible. In particular the aerosolized tar (which is not present in exhaust fumes) is what sets people's allergies off.

(Trust me, I'm an organic chemist.)

Is the reverse then possible to be sensitive to exhaust fumes but not cigarette smoke ?

 

[Eagle]

Is the reverse then possible to be sensitive to exhaust fumes but not cigarette smoke ?

Theoretically, although most of the matter in exhaust smoke (carbon particulates, carbon monoxide, nitrogen oxides and so on) is also in cigarette smoke.

Respiratory system sensitivities can be oddly specific. For instance I have asthma that's pretty much only aggravated by the pollen of privet hedges.

 

[Butts]

Theoretically, although most of the matter in exhaust smoke (carbon particulates, carbon monoxide, nitrogen oxides and so on) is also in cigarette smoke.

Respiratory system sensitivities can be oddly specific. For instance I have asthma that's pretty much only aggravated by the pollen of privet hedges.

I myself had a "dalliance" with the disease about 15 years ago - I switched Brand of Cigarette from B&H to Silk Cut and this resulted in a lot of wheezing and using an inhaler.

However when I switched back to B&H which are a lot stronger the symptoms disappeared and have never come back.

Could it be that the Silk Cut contained something the B&H didn't which triggered the symptoms ?

This is not a wind up however implausible it may sound !!

 

[BestWestern]

So you would advocate a South Eastern approach? If you are not aware, staff are expected to be visible on the train (dispatching from one of the rear(ish) passenger doors [not the cab]). This expectation is maintained even on the busiest of services, the only exception being when you fear for your personal safety (at which point, I'm told you have to write a report).

(SE are really pushing "Safety is our number one priority" (for passengers).)

I didn't think Southeastern bothered with a Guard on any of their services?!

 

[island]

They have a guard on their longer-distance trains. And high speed trains have an "onboard manager", which I'm given to understand is a long-winded way of having someone who does guard "things" but doesn't get commission on ticket sales.