Anti-social behaviour on DOO services - what can be done?

[Butts]

You're wrong

The normal workplace smoking ban covers enclosed workplaces. A sign must be displayed, but the law still applies if one isn't. The railway byelaws say that smoking is banned on the railway where signage indicates this is so.

To be fair he's not alone with regard to ignorance of the Law with regard to this - all the propaganda emanating from ASH's "Berlin Headquarters"and other such bodies only covers one side of the story.

Smoking is quite legal in a number of places such as:

Hotel Bedrooms

Most Sports Stadiums (that are not totally enclosed including Football Grounds)

Prisons

Mental Hospitals

Old Peoples Homes

Royal Palaces and the House of Commons

And of course Station Platforms
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If you travel, as I do regularly from Keighley you'll generally find half a dozen people spread out along the platform smoking, making the smoke very difficult to avoid. I'm unfortunate in seeming to be very sensitive to cigarette smoke. Most smokers are unaware just how big an area their smoke covers if it's not windy. At least if you're not waiting for a train you have some chance of moving away from smokers outside.

As to how I managed before in smoky areas - with difficulty. The nightclub I used to visit most regularly had an outside area - I'd spend most of the night there - until the smoking ban came in and all the smokers moved out there and I moved inside.

According to the information I have just checked the Station has a Waiting Room and a BTP presence.

Perhaps if one end of the platform had a smoking section you could avoid the "puffers". From what you say it must be diffilcult to linger to long on a high street where you may be exposed to all manner of fumes such as exhaust emmissions.

If the Station has no barriers I would probably pop out for a smoke if it were me.

 

[90019]

I don't agree with people smoking on platforms and LOADS of people do at Hatfield, in full view of others (including staff and the people in the coffee shop), but it's not quite the same problem if they're away from me and in the open air.

One thing I really dislike about Waverley, particularly nowadays, is how all the smokers congregate about halfway up the ramp on the vehicle exit, at the point where the roof ends. If you want to use that exit, you end up having to walk right through the nicotine corridor, as I've started referring to it, and it's absolutely disgusting.
I find myself holding my breath when I pass through it because the smell is so revolting.

Of course you can still smell it, but you're not breathing in the smoke. It's perhaps worse that they just dump their cigarette butt on the floor or flick it onto the track - which is rude.

This is my main bugbear with smokers, it seems that the large majority just chuck away the butt when they're finished, so they're everywhere on the roads and pavements.
Particularly at the bus terminus points, it horrible having to walk through hundreds of discarded butts littering the ground - especially when there's a bin nearby.

I'd actually quite like to see smokers caught littering in this way made to clear it all up. Though the same goes for anyone who deliberately litters.

 

[Ediswan]

Smoking is quite legal in a number of places such as: .... Station Platforms

The government guidance was explicit that the 2007 ban did not apply to open railway station platforms. Yet, there are often signs saying "Smoking is against the law anywhere in this station.", or similar. What law, or laws, would that be ?

Railway byelaws, from here http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/railway-byelaws/railway-byelaws.pdf say

3. Smoking
No person shall smoke or carry a lighted pipe, cigar, cigarette, match, lighter or other lighted item on any part of the railway on or near which there is a notice indicating that smoking is not allowed.


Which seems to leave the railway free to ban smoking anywhere on its property which it chooses to, provided the notices are in place. Prior to the 2007 ban they could choose to allow it anywhere. Today they could choose to allow it open platforms, but have chosen not to (not round here anyway).

(Questions over correct signage are a whole different issue !!!)

Personally, I don't have any problem with smokers at the end of an open platform, especially if they think to go downwind.

 

[Butts]

One thing I really dislike about Waverley, particularly nowadays, is how all the smokers congregate about halfway up the ramp on the vehicle exit, at the point where the roof ends. If you want to use that exit, you end up having to walk right through the nicotine corridor, as I've started referring to it, and it's absolutely disgusting.
I find myself holding my breath when I pass through it because the smell is so revolting.

This is my main bugbear with smokers, it seems that the large majority just chuck away the butt when they're finished, so they're everywhere on the roads and pavements.
Particularly at the bus terminus points, it horrible having to walk through hundreds of discarded butts littering the ground - especially when there's a bin nearby.

I'd actually quite like to see smokers caught littering in this way made to clear it all up. Though the same goes for anyone who deliberately litters.

With regard to Edinburgh Waverley you have forced everyone out of the Station so where do you think they should go now ? - Arthurs Seat !!

Was this less of a problem when people could smoke within the Station and it was dispersed rather than concentraed.

There are no Ash Trays positioned at the entrance to the Station hence the litter problem. I do agree where provided bins should be used.

Provide the facilities and smokers will mainly use them - if a place is tidy anyone is less likely to discard litter of any kind.
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The government guidance was explicit that the 2007 ban did not apply to open railway station platforms. Yet, there are often signs saying "Smoking is against the law anywhere in this station.", or similar. What law, or laws, would that be ?

Railway byelaws, from here http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/railway-byelaws/railway-byelaws.pdf say

3. Smoking
No person shall smoke or carry a lighted pipe, cigar, cigarette, match, lighter or other lighted item on any part of the railway on or near which there is a notice indicating that smoking is not allowed.


Which seems to leave the railway free to ban smoking anywhere on its property which it chooses to, provided the notices are in place. Prior to the 2007 ban they could choose to allow it anywhere. Today they could choose to allow it open platforms, but have chosen not to (not round here anyway).

(Questions over correct signage are a whole different issue !!!)

Personally, I don't have any problem with smokers at the end of an open platform, especially if they think to go downwind.

So are you of the opinion that Network Rail saw it as a chance to save money and grabbed it with both hands.

 

[90019]

With regard to Edinburgh Waverley you have forced everyone out of the Station so where do you think they should go now ? - Arthurs Seat !!

Personally, I'd prefer to see them build a shelter or something at one of the other entrances so people don't have to walk through the crowd of smokers. The Market Street entrance would probably be easiest.

There are no Ash Trays positioned at the entrance to the Station hence the litter problem. I do agree where provided bins should be used.

I do think there should be lots more ashtrays and bins around, but there are some places where the ones provided seem barely used, with butts discarded all over the ground while the ashtray and bin remain pretty empty.

 

[Butts]

Personally, I'd prefer to see them build a shelter or something at one of the other entrances so people don't have to walk through the crowd of smokers. The Market Street entrance would probably be easiest.

I do think there should be lots more ashtrays and bins around, but there are some places where the ones provided seem barely used, with butts discarded all over the ground while the ashtray and bin remain pretty empty.

I take it you don't frequent Haymarket that often where passengers can smoke at the ends of the platform that are not under cover and hence solves the problem for both parties. seemples

 

[O L Leigh]

Are we still talking about DOO passenger trains...?

O L Leigh

 

[Deerfold]

According to the information I have just checked the Station has a Waiting Room and a BTP presence.

Really?
In 5 years I've yet to see one

Perhaps if one end of the platform had a smoking section you could avoid the "puffers". From what you say it must be diffilcult to linger to long on a high street where you may be exposed to all manner of fumes such as exhaust emmissions.

Whilst I do not doubt exhaust emissions are bad for you, fortunately they do not cause me to immediately have trouble breathing.

If the Station has no barriers I would probably pop out for a smoke if it were me.

The station has no barriers - it has enclosed ramps which I try and be first on when leaving the train so I am not behind a smoker who couldn't possibly wait another minute before lighting up. The top of this ramp seems to be a particular favourite place to linger smoking, usually leaning against the no smoking sign.

 

[Butts]

Are we still talking about DOO passenger trains...?

O L Leigh

One of the points the OP made was in relation to illicit smoking on Trains - here we are attempting to establish if the withdrawal of aedequate facilities may enhance the chances of such behaviour.
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Really?
In 5 years I've yet to see one

What BTP or the Waiting Room ?


Whilst I do not doubt exhaust emissions are bad for you, fortunately they do not cause me to immediately have trouble breathing.

What about walking down the High Street ?



The station has no barriers - it has enclosed ramps which I try and be first on when leaving the train so I am not behind a smoker who couldn't possibly wait another minute before lighting up. The top of this ramp seems to be a particular favourite place to linger smoking, usually leaning against the no smoking sign.

If they are all by the ramp and you are at the other end of the platform how can this be a problem ?

 

[Ediswan]

So are you of the opinion that Network Rail saw it as a chance to save money and grabbed it with both hands.

I have no idea what their motives were. Just saying that smoking on an open station platform can be legal, or it can be illegal. It is at the discretion of whoever in the current system runs that station. You should check which before lighting up.

 

[Butts]

I have no idea what their motives were. Just saying that smoking on an open station platform can be legal, or it can be illegal. It is at the discretion of whoever in the current system runs that station. You should check which before lighting up.

So if you were the only passenger at Morpeth Station last night approaching 2200 with no staff present and no train information boards working .....

Would you feel lucky....

Incidentally do you ever break the speed limit when driving despite the presence of signs advising what it is

 

[Flamingo]

Maybe so, but it doesn't help the case for retaining guards in terms of McNulty. At one XC depot south of Brum the top earning guard had taken around £80k in a year with the lowest at £2k, so one had covered his wages and the other hadn't. McNulty would take one look at that and hey presto.

I know, in my depot over 50% of the revenue is taken by 20% of the guards.

However, I have heard managers say that revenue is not our function, and the guards that don't take revenue don't seem to get any hassle, whereas any sniff of a delay minute or incident form (or complaint) caused by revenue duties gets jumped on from a very great height in hobnailed boots.

Personally, I think that if the company employed ATE's and RPIs in larger numbers to concentrate on revenue on every train, and allowed the guard to be freed up for their role of safe and timely train running, able to concentrate on customer services, and also train and equip them properly how to patrol the difficult trains and deal with antisocial behavior more forcefully, then that might be the way to go.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

.
[It seems to work ok in most Stations in Scotland.

:

I noticed that the 13:59 Inverness to Thurso/Wick service has a 'smoke break' at Ardgay.


http://www.train-photos.com/picture/number15445.asp

 

[Butts]

I noticed that the 13:59 Inverness to Thurso/Wick service has a 'smoke break' at Ardgay.

Now that is what I call a sensible compromise

 

[Deerfold]

One of the points the OP made was in relation to illicit smoking on Trains - here we are attempting to establish if the withdrawal of aedequate facilities may enhance the chances of such behaviour.
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If they are all by the ramp and you are at the other end of the platform how can this be a problem ?

Well, apart from the ramp being covered and people being on it, not by it, as I stated earlier there's usually smokers spread along the platforms.

But I don't expect any sympathy from smokers.

 

[Ediswan]

So if you were the only passenger at Morpeth Station last night approaching 2200 with no staff present and no train information boards working .....

Would you feel lucky....

No, I would be horribly lost in a strange land.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

But I don't expect any sympathy from smokers.

I think you may be tarring them all with the same brush. If people go to light up around a friend who has asthma she just politely requests them to stop because it affects her asthma and nearly all do.

 

[Butts]

Well, apart from the ramp being covered and people being on it, not by it, as I stated earlier there's usually smokers spread along the platforms.

But I don't expect any sympathy from smokers.

I didn't realise this was as widespead in England as your account seems to indicate - you do have my sympathy, if there are no barriers I would go outside as I mentioned earlier.

 

[jon0844]

she just politely requests them to stop because it affects her asthma and nearly all do.

I'd have hoped all of them would! Surely it just takes one to cause problems?

 

[Clip]

I'd have hoped all of them would! Surely it just takes one to cause problems?

Used to happen to me brother years ago on the buses around Newcastle - back when you could smoke on them. People would light up but there was always one who didnt want to put it out and me poor brother used to have to get off the bus.

Though I remember me old man battering one chap once for not putting out his cig even though me brother was having a massive fit in front of him. wasnt pretty either way.

Getting back to the OP though - even having a guard on such a service and others may not even prevent such behaviour due to them not wanting to put themselves into such a situation.

Im not sure there is a definitive answer short of having police on every last few services which is impractical and too costly.

 

[Deerfold]

I think you may be tarring them all with the same brush. If people go to light up around a friend who has asthma she just politely requests them to stop because it affects her asthma and nearly all do.

Perhaps, and it may just be that smokers being antisocial affects me more than some other forms of antisocial behaviour so I notice it more but few smokers, in my experience seem to even think about putting their butt anywhere but the floor or how their smoking may effect anyone else.

 

[Butts]

Perhaps, and it may just be that smokers being antisocial affects me more than some other forms of antisocial behaviour so I notice it more but few smokers, in my experience seem to even think about putting their butt anywhere but the floor or how their smoking may effect anyone else.

Well I'd be far more worried about a drunk - not many smokers start fights or subject their wives to domestic violence.
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Used to happen to me brother years ago on the buses around Newcastle - back when you could smoke on them. People would light up but there was always one who didnt want to put it out and me poor brother used to have to get off the bus.

Though I remember me old man battering one chap once for not putting out his cig even though me brother was having a massive fit in front of him. wasnt pretty either way.

Getting back to the OP though - even having a guard on such a service and others may not even prevent such behaviour due to them not wanting to put themselves into such a situation.

Im not sure there is a definitive answer short of having police on every last few services which is impractical and too costly.

Why didn't your brother sit downstairs as smoking was restricted to the upper deck ?
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I'd have hoped all of them would! Surely it just takes one to cause problems?

I would move away from the Girl as I hope would any reasonable smoker.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

I'd have hoped all of them would! Surely it just takes one to cause problems?

It is just that often people are unaware they are causing others a problem and if they are made aware then most will respect a polite request. You aren't going to get respect from 100% of people though, there will always be that one now and again.

 

[Clip]

Why didn't your brother sit downstairs as smoking was restricted to the upper deck ?
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.

Erm, cos they were busy maybe?


Im not attacking smokers here as I am one myself but I have manners in as much that should someone be coughing when im smoking ill move away or put it out.

 

[transmanche]

Yes, but most people seem to think smoking on open platforms is not a problem, only Network Rail.

And T&W Metro; which has had a total smoking ban (including open-air platforms) since it opened over 30 years ago.

The problem with allowing smoking in some places and not others, is that some people then try to 'push the boundaries' by smoking in shelters, etc. So the powers that be decide that a total smoking ban is 'simpler'. So I'm afraid you only have a minority of smokers to blame for the total smoking ban on stations; the ones that can't stick to the rules and can't manage to act with consideration for others.

 

[Butts]

And T&W Metro; which has had a total smoking ban (including open-air platforms) since it opened over 30 years ago.

The problem with allowing smoking in some places and not others, is that some people then try to 'push the boundaries' by smoking in shelters, etc. So the powers that be decide that a total smoking ban is 'simpler'. So I'm afraid you only have a minority of smokers to blame for the total smoking ban on stations; the ones that can't stick to the rules and can't manage to act with consideration for others.

T&W Metro with huge edifices such as Whitley Bay and others with gigantic open air spaces i don't believe it. Merseyrail don't do the same

Your second point is somewhat flawed as I have not observed anyone smoking inside a Station since the ban came in but plenty outside on the platforms. If what you say is true they would be lighting up inside by now.

 

[Clip]

T&W Metro with huge edifices such as Whitley Bay and others with gigantic open air spaces i don't believe it. Merseyrail don't do the same

Your second point is somewhat flawed as I have not observed anyone smoking inside a Station since the ban came in but plenty outside on the platforms. If what you say is true they would be lighting up inside by now.

Saw someone light up on the DLR the other day. Actually inside it and have seen it many times on their platforms too.

 

[the sniper]

Really? have you ever travelled on the valley lines or some of the west midlands routes on a friday night? the guards just sit at the back and pretend they havent seen anything, I used to be anti DOO but these days I reckon a lot (not all) but a lot of guards are simply button pushers who don't patrol the train, don't do tickets and don't give a **** and if that is the case then is there realy any benefit of having one? (Cat firmly placed amongst the pigeons)

Are you an actually an RPI? If you are, I'm surprised you've said what you have.

Firstly, do you honestly not believe there's a reason why most Guard don't do tickets on Friday and Saturday nights beyond 'not giving a ****'? What happens when the lone Guard inevitably comes across the first drunk or 'Gangsta', or group of the aforementioned, who won't pay? They'll either just take the verbal/physical abuse while they wait for the Police, or have to go to the back cab and let the network ground to a halt while they wait for the police, who won't turn up (either BTP or Local) because current resources can't even cope with the current situation. If your 'Guard at all hours' system came about, no suburban trains would move on a Friday or Saturday night.

As Flamingo has pointed out, there is little incentive to do tickets at the best of times in most TOCs nowadays, let alone on Friday or Saturday nights. Those who delay trains are spoken too by management, not those who don't do loads of tickets. Those who get in conflict are given little sympathy at best and blamed for the trouble at worst, whether guilty or not. Fare evaders can't be touched, let alone thrown off the using the reasonable force the byelaws allow. Those who take it upon themselves to deal with fare evaders in such a way face the sack, even if the Guard's actions are commended by the BTP.

I also take issue with your "a lot of guards are simply button pushers who don't patrol the train" comment. If the recent jailing of the Guard in Liverpool has proven anything it is that the role certainly isn't just 'button pushing', even when the Guard is just working from the back cab doing their core job, the only job that TOC managers really seem to care about (rightly IMO), ensuring the safe and punctual running of the train.

So in conclusion, though you might be disgruntled by suburban Guards not getting themselves knocked out in the 2 or 3 minutes between stations on Friday or Saturday nights, most TOCs seemingly don't agree that they're doing much wrong. Also, if TOCs were more bothered about revenue, maybe they'd employ some RPIs &/or security to patrol trains beyond the early evening, or even just man ticket barriers at major stations...

EDIT: Just a tip for any Guards (or even brave members of the public ), a good way to deal with on train smokers without conflict is to inform the idiot/scroat, in a slightly alarmed/concerned fashion, that they need to put it out as if the smoke gets into the smoke detectors the train breaks will come on and we'll be stuck until an engineer (fitter doesn't work, too railway dictionary) comes out to reset it. This has always worked for me, though I do fancy my own acting skills. :P

 

[Ediswan]

So are you of the opinion that Network Rail saw it as a chance to save money and grabbed it with both hands.

Your question prompted me to investigate how and why the general smoking ban on open platforms was introduced.

I came across this ATOC document titled "ATOC Good Practice Guide - Control of Smoking". http://www.rgsonline.co.uk/Other_Organisations/ATOC/ATOC Good Practice Guides/ATOCGPG015 Iss 1.pdf

Usefully, it contains a 'Purpose' section which finishes: "inconsistency of approach within the rail industry will be confusing for passengers and unhelpful from a public relations viewpoint."

So there you have it. ATOC advice was to prohibit smoking anywhere on any station in England or Wales in order to avoid 'confusing' passengers and to avoid 'unhelpful' PR.

I read that as ATOC saying: 'Whatever makes our life simpler wins. Smokers are a minority with no specific rights. We can can be as mean to them as we like.'

PS Whoever invented the [Preview Post] button deserves a prize.

 

[transmanche]

Your second point is somewhat flawed as I have not observed anyone smoking inside a Station since the ban came in but plenty outside on the platforms. If what you say is true they would be lighting up inside by now.

I guess you haven't visited Newcastle Central recently and stood in the portico...