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Northern Rail - possible entrapment ?
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Yet. Forum software doesn't seem to allow a post with just the word 'yet' so I'm writing a little more.
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It could make things simpler if they did introduce them. Under the present set up they either threaten to prosecute or do nothing. Once the persistent non-payers realise it could cost them an instant £20 or more it should make more pay up.
But there would be so many stations without full payment facilities any evaders would just say they'd got on at one of them.
They briefly introduced penalty fares on the Skipton and Ilkley lines. It was a farce.
In any case, penalty fares are not designed for persistent non payers but for passengers who have made a mistake.
People who are attempting to avoid the fare should be prosecuted. Penalty Fares are intended for passengers who have made some kind of mistake rather than fare evaders.
But then there's an excuse to hand them out like free newspapers. And the quality of checks would need to increase tenfold; you know, with queues and twice as many people checking.
And let's not even get started on what happens when the first and second trains depart before the booking office is open.
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Hold on... so you're not joking? How is a flat £20 a fair fare for a mistake, when its so bloody complicated? Is this not what excesses are for!?
Or were you actually joking!?
No, it applies to people holding incorrect tickets or failing to buy a ticket having been given the appropriate opportunity to do so[1]. A PF scheme should be a lot simpler to administer than the current alternatives.
What is so special about your journeys that makes you think you are entitled to special treatment?
[1] accepting that persistent offenders should be prosecuted.
MattRobinson
Member
Most of my train journeys start or end at Sandal and Agbrigg. There's a ticket machine there (that I've used about three times- not that any of the guards care as they'll sell you a ticket anyway just as before it was installed). The problem comes that there isn't either a footbridge or an underpass- just the pavement of the road that passes under the bridge. If you're catching a train to Sheffield, it's not a short detour to the TVM (although admittedly not a long one either). Where would you put the ticket office? It would only merit a couple of staff (there were 2 RPIs there last Friday, I only saw them check my ticket and I saw about 4 trains in the station...), but do you put it somewhere good for people arriving on foot to both platforms? Somewhere good for people arriving by car? Or do you spend lots of money completely redesigning the station so that the only entrance is via the ticket office and install a footbridge?
I think NXEAs Penalty Fare FAQ put it quite well:
NXEA said:
Also I never said anything about fairness, personally I do have some issues with PFs. But that doesn't change the fact that they're not intended as a punishment for fare evaders. Just to clarify it isn't a flat £20 a Penalty Fare is either £20 or twice the full single fare from the station where a passenger got on the train to the next scheduled station stop whichever is greater.
175001
On Moderation
Not a good sight, but to note that now the OTAP has moved at Victoria.
Where am I asking for special treatment?
I'm saying that, if a TOC is going to charge penalty fares to people with invalid tickets, they need to have staff who can accurately differentiate between valid and invalid tickets in, at least, the majority of circumstances.
For Northern, this is not currently the case
46100ROYALSCOT
Member
Having read with interest many messages regarding passengers having no ticket or no facilities to buy a ticket before the end of journey, I was wondering what defines leaving the station in relation to buying a ticket when I get off my train. Is it not the case that if I am stopped by revenue inspectors I can declare that I am on my way to purchase a ticket even if I have passed the so called first opportunity to buy a ticket, as long as I have not left the station what offence have I committed? I probably havent explained this very well but I guess you get the gist of what I am asking.
Paul Kelly
Verified Rep - BR Fares
I don't think it's really the leaving of the station that's the main thing, but rather the demonstration of intent to avoid payment of the fare due. If someone went past the booking office and continued walking towards the exit at a brisk pace before coming across an RPI, I think it would be quite hard for them to explain that they intended to just poke their head outside to check what the weather was like, before turning round and heading back on themselves to buy their ticket.
In other words, I'd hazard a guess that how close you need to get to the exit to demonstrate intent to avoid the fare is probably very dependent on the layout of the station in question.
In other words, I'd hazard a guess that how close you need to get to the exit to demonstrate intent to avoid the fare is probably very dependent on the layout of the station in question.
I would say probably not, but it may depend on the station and exactly where you walked and where you were stopped (and how good your solicitor is!).
The Glossop case springs to mind, where Northern appear to have set up a trap (whether intentional or not we will never know) where the old booking office closed and a new one was opened, obscured from view and without warning. Someone walked past it and was then accused of dodging the fare, despite having boarded at an unstaffed station and aiming for where they believed the booking office was. I think most people would be deemed to have demonstrated intent by Northern in the circumstances.
DaveNewcastle
Established Member
The intent in avoiding payment of the correct fare is demonstrated by passing a ticket office or similar opportunity to pay.
Leaving a station, or even walking towards an exit where there were facilities on the station premises, would certainly be construed as 'intent to avoid payment'.
Leaving a station, or even walking towards an exit where there were facilities on the station premises, would certainly be construed as 'intent to avoid payment'.
46100ROYALSCOT
Member
As an example if I board a train on the Liverpool Lime St to Warrington Central line and use the Northern stopping service, now if the ticket inspector does not check my ticket for one reason or another and if i get off at Sankey which is my local station, because of the layout i have to walk off the platform up to the main road cross the railway bridge then descend down to the "Lpool bound" platform to be able to purchase a ticket, if I was challenged on the way out have i done anything wrong?. I give that only as an example my main concern is on a larger station the likes of Man Vic, Man Pic or Lime Street. Surely if i haven't left the station how can i be accused of avoiding payment if i still have the opportunity to pay? What i am getting at I think 
is if i buy something in a store as long as I pay before leaving I haven't stole the item or isn't rail law the same?
is if i buy something in a store as long as I pay before leaving I haven't stole the item or isn't rail law the same?This sounds like the thread where I used the Garforth example, did you see that? I do not know what the legal position is, but I have my strong thoughts on the moral position (and what the legal position should be - if it was a fair system, which it isn't always).
In fact, I have merged the threads.
DaveNewcastle
Established Member
As I posted above, it is enough to demonstrate 'intent to avoid payment' if a passnger passes an opportunity to pay - that can and does include simply not approaching an opportunity to pay.
In reality, cicumstances vary greatly between stations and local practices, but my definition is the one used where an Officer has reason to suspect that a passenger who cannot produce a valid ticket may have been avoiding payment.
It has been taken as adequate evidence, in other circumstances, that the passenger should have approached the Guard (in order to buy a ticket) and a claim that the Guard did not approach the passenger has not been an adequate Defence.
In reality, cicumstances vary greatly between stations and local practices, but my definition is the one used where an Officer has reason to suspect that a passenger who cannot produce a valid ticket may have been avoiding payment.
Does that apply in the Man Vic & Sheffield examples mentioned earlier, where the 'opportunity to pay' is at the opposite side of the station to the immediately obvious entrance but is not clearly signed.
DaveNewcastle
Established Member
Just to be clear, the test of 'passing an opportunity to pay' is the test which is applied after detecting a passenger without a ticket in circumstances that lead an Inspector to suspect that the passenger may have been evading paying the due fare.
It would be wrong to apply those words universally; to every possible scenario in which a passenger may not be in possession of a ticket; and thereby conclude (wrongly) that there are perverse circumstances which are unavoidable or follow from the reasonable use of station premises which automatically put passengers in breach of the Law. I suspect that some of the discussions on this thread are concentrating on such perverse circumstances, real or theoretical.
OK, you board at Cross Gates and there is no means to pay your fare using your chosen payment method at the station, the guard doesn't come round before Garforth, you step off the train and this is your view:
Where do you go? Left or Right?
(Without looking up Stations Made Easy!)
I did see that actually Yorkie, and I was rather confused! Did you choose the example because the sign is practically invisible? But if I were to answer, I'd probably go over the bridge...
46100ROYALSCOT
Member
I did read your thread when it was a current query. Having had another look at it and your picture, Sankey station is not quite like Garforth in so much as you have to leave the station totally to get to the other platform to purchase a ticket, I am sure there must be lots of similar stations like Sankey. I do get the impression that most of the TOCs deliberately operate the system where its always in their favour and difficult for the average customer to purchase a ticket without the fear of some wrong doing especially Northern who do sell on board tickets. I have found a lot of Northern managed stations only have part time station attendants/ ticket sellers. I hope I never find myself in a position with no or mislaid ticket situation. I hope DaveNewcastle is not ex-directory
I did read your thread when it was a current query. Having had another look at it and your picture, Sankey station is not quite like Garforth in so much as you have to leave the station totally to get to the other platform to purchase a ticket, I am sure there must be lots of similar stations like Sankey. I do get the impression that most of the TOCs deliberately operate the system where its always in their favour and difficult for the average customer to purchase a ticket without the fear of some wrong doing especially Northern who do sell on board tickets. I have found a lot of Northern managed stations only have part time station attendants/ ticket sellers. I hope I never find myself in a position with no or mislaid ticket situation. I hope DaveNewcastle is not ex-directory
This is testament to my being a "Northerner" in both senses of the word, but I didn't realise there were TOCs that don't sell ANY tickets onboard. How many do?
And exactly the perception, I would imagine, that they want to change.
Most of the TOCs? That's a very general statement. Have you evidence for this? How many have you travelled with?
I make most of my journeys in the North West, where Northern and TPE are usually ok at selling on trains and TPE have machines at most of their Furness line stations (I haven't visited them all). Even in the circumstances that started this thread a careful answer to the question "would you have travelled without a ticket?" should be sufficient if challenged.
Do you really think TOCs are deliberately trying to con the public into breaching the laws and byelaws? I think that's one conspiracy theory too far.
The Glossop incident certainly gave that impression. Of course we do not know that the description of events given on here was 100% accuarate, but equally we do not know that it was not. I assume the OP in that thread never came back with the outcome ?
Since joining this forum a couple of weeks ago I am amazed at how little I knew about train travel, especially in respect of "travelling without a valid ticket", I had no idea the penalties were so severe, and the burden of proof falling on the passenger.
One reason for not having a ticket crops up quite a lot, "the guard never came for my fare", I realise this is going to "ruffle a few feathers" but here goes,
Someone gets on at an unmanned station,and even though there are very few people on the train the guard doesn't bother to collect his/her fare, then when they get to their destination they are stopped for not having a ticket, their excuse, "the guard never asked me for my fare and I didn't know I could buy one at my destination", what happens to the guard? In the eyes of the average person, at best, he is not doing the job he is paid for, and at worst he is actually assisting someone to break the law, does the guard get disciplined? because again in the eyes of Mr Average if he had done his job no one would be travelling without a ticket. Once again apologies if I have offended anyone.
One reason for not having a ticket crops up quite a lot, "the guard never came for my fare", I realise this is going to "ruffle a few feathers" but here goes,
Someone gets on at an unmanned station,and even though there are very few people on the train the guard doesn't bother to collect his/her fare, then when they get to their destination they are stopped for not having a ticket, their excuse, "the guard never asked me for my fare and I didn't know I could buy one at my destination", what happens to the guard? In the eyes of the average person, at best, he is not doing the job he is paid for, and at worst he is actually assisting someone to break the law, does the guard get disciplined? because again in the eyes of Mr Average if he had done his job no one would be travelling without a ticket. Once again apologies if I have offended anyone.
185
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The guy on at Vic said they had nicked his mate to cover it, hence the queue.
Move was long overdue. The booking office robbery some years ago happened via that side door.
I'm not staff, but I don't think that's a fair assessment of the guard. I highly doubt that any of them are just lazy: as I think I mentioned, but I'm not sure where, some stations are so close together its just not possible to get around to open the doors again.
Some will be along to give you their no doubt strong opinions shortly.
I do empathise with your point about the penalties though, because I have made a few journeys entirely ticketless - machines were present at either end, but no cash, so no way for me to buy, and both booking offices were closed. Unsurprisingly, the guard didn't sell me a fare (or leave the cab) for my six-min, two stop journey. What can I do?
46100ROYALSCOT
Member
1:No hard evidence, do you have any that they are not?
2: Not many checking a list of the current TOC's, I have only used 17
Well I agree that the RPI was being over officious. But to conflate that into it being a deliberate policy by Northern to mislead passengers is stretching the point somewhat. Northern do have some pretty poor representatives (I'm thinking G4S rather than their own staff) but I put it down to incompetence rather than conspiracy, sorry.
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Errm, you're the one making the (so far unfounded) allegation that TOCs are corrupt.
I put my 'evidence' in my earlier post, FWIW.
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