Northern Rail - possible entrapment ?

[neilmc]

Taking this away from any individual's experience, am I correct in making the following general observations:

1) Northern Rail operate a large number of small stations within the GMPTE area. The comparative low cost of tickets means that they have taken a business decision to neither employ a ticket office not install a machine at many of these stations. Thus many travellers have no opportunity to buy a ticket prior to travel.

2) At busy times, the conductor is unable to get round the whole train, especially if this is composed of coupled units with no through connection. Thus many passengers have no opportunity to buy a ticket during travel.

3) At a terminal platform this is resolved by having staff issuing tickets at a makeshift barrier which resolves the problem cheaply at those platforms.

4) At other platforms it is possible for passengers to exit the station perfectly legally without passing through any barrier or a ticket office. Rather than issue tickets at every exit, they have employed RPIs to try to induce an admission that passengers using any other than the main exit were not going to pay their fare. This is in fact a perfectly reasonably action by the passenger since no opportunity to pay such a fare has presented itself and they would have had to go out of their journey's way to find such an opportunity, however such an admission results in action which will bring prosecution or an opportunity to pay an exorbitant fee to have the case dropped.

OK so if 1-4 are true where do we go from here? Seems to me like Northern Rail are choosing to be negligent in their revenue collection in order to hit passengers who had no opportunity to purchase tickets with a big punishment fee with the alternative of facing criminal prosecution. Is anyone brave enough to take them on? Does anyone have media contacts to expose this potential malpractice? I am considering passing this scenario to Manchester Evening News if my understanding is verified to be correct. Comments please.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I accept that your observations in paragraphs 1 to 3 are based on fact, though I cannot comment on your presumptions.

I disagree with 3 elements of your paragraph 4. I don't expect that a local journalist would be too concerend about that if there were some human interest stories which could be published, with real people to pose for the photo journalist who had incurred some real distress or loss in the story.

The claim of negligence is potentially a serious claim which should be substantiated with Evidence; that would include the Contracted Terms of their franchise or other agreement of which the Operator is in breach; it would include documented evidence of a negligent act; and it would include the consequential harm (or risk of harm) incurred by actual persons. The standards for a claim of negligence are much higher than for a mere omission.

It would be contentious to try to demonstrate that a Railway Operator had a duty to a passenger who had not a ticket for their journey and then to demonstrate that the Operator had been negligent in that duty and then to demonstrate the actual harm or risk of harm to which the passenger was exposed.

Let us know how you get on! Good luck!

 

[snail]

I would say good luck too. How is this any different to buying a ticket at the start of a journey? If I enter Preston station from the side entrance can I claim that getting a ticket would involve in a longer trip (via the ticket office) so I needn't bother?

 

[neilmc]

Thanks Dave - obviously I don't mean negligent in a legal sense of causing harm to persons by omission to follow safety procedures but an attitude of letting a lot of people get away without paying the fare, because it isn't cost effective to follow the kind of ticketing procedure which people who don't use the rail network would expect to always be there (ticket offices/machines/effective barriers), and then trying to recoup their losses by alleging that people who in good faith have had no opportunity to pay their fare before or during the journey must be dishonest criminals and stinging them for a fee way in excess of the ticket value or facing prosecution.

Or am I missing something obvious here?

 

[island]

It's almost certainly not entrapment (which also has a legal definition). Sharp practice is about the strongest term I would use. Ultimately however, if people choose to commit the offence of evading a rail fare intentionally, they must be prepared to accept the consequences of that action.

The take-away point is this: the man on the street does not know that it is obligatory to buy at your destination's booking office in the absence of a barrier, manned or automatic.

 

[yorkie]

OK, you board at Cross Gates and there is no means to pay your fare using your chosen payment method at the station, the guard doesn't come round before Garforth, you step off the train and this is your view:

Where do you go? Left or Right?

(Without looking up Stations Made Easy!)

 

[Anvil1984]

Bad example in my opinion as both stations have part time tickets offices. If Cross Gates is shut itsikely so will Garforth

 

[yorkie]

Bad example in my opinion as both stations have part time tickets offices. If Cross Gates is shut itsikely so will Garforth

But how are people meant to know that?

If it helps, change the origin to Burley Park, and a tight connection at Leeds. The ticket office is open and Northern staff are waiting round the corner if you take a wrong turn.

So, someone unfamiliar with the station, would you turn left or right? A wrong choice could lead to prosecution.

 

[sheff1]

I know the station so won't comment.

However, at Salford Crescent recently I noticed that there are prominent signs saying words to the effect that if you do not already have a ticket you must buy one for the journey you have undertaken from the booking office before leaving the station and, if you don't, you are committing an offence.

The layout at Crescent is, of course, such that you must pass the ticket office before leaving but I do not see why similar notices cannot be installed at Man Vic, Garforth et al pointing people without tickets in the right direction. That way there would be no excuse if someone continued out regardless and were challenged.

 

[Anvil1984]

That excuse is as ropey as a passenger saying they didnt know a ticket office existed at Cross Gates. I'd expect passengers to go.left over the footbridge where there's an obvious station building, easier access to town etc.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I also don't buy the excuse at Victoria either a) go towards main concourse or B) go down a back exit.

 

[yorkie]

That excuse is as ropey as a passenger saying they didnt know a ticket office existed at Cross Gates. I'd expect passengers to go.left over the footbridge where there's an obvious station building

Not easy for people with reduced mobility or people with impaired vision though.

And for the rest of us, are we really required to head towards a station building which may or may not be a ticket office (I'd argue most station buildings on Northern are not ticket offices! We ate a curry in Church Fenton's old ticket office a few weeks back!) and in the unlikely event that it is, it may not be open.

True, if there are huge signs directing you to the ticket office, stating exactly when it is open etc then that may well be a different matter.

But I do not accept that passengers should either look up station layouts in advance or do a sweep of a station in order to find a ticket office... in fact, when someone at Glossop headed straight towards the old ticket office and missed the new ticket window that was not very visible, they were caught by staff who accused them of trying to avoid paying at the ticket office! So even if you are familiar with a station, you can be caught out if the layout changes!

easier access to town etc.

Hang on, are you now saying people should have easier access to where they want to go? If so, if they wanted to turn right then they should be able to?

 

[sheff1]

I also don't buy the excuse at Victoria either a) go towards main concourse or B) go down a back exit.

But there are no signs to 'main concourse' and it is not obvious it is a back exit until you are in it.

The same at Sheffield with the Supertram exit - an unfamiliar user could easily not realise it is a secondary exit until they had stepped foot outside.

At Stockport, where again the difference between the two exits is not immediately obvious, the ticket sellers/checkers set up a very obvious table before you reach the point where you must choose right or left. They do not hide round the corner on the Edgeley side.

 

[exile]

Northern Rail seem to want to have their cake and eat it - save money by not providing open ticket offices, working (or indeed any) ticket machines, or sufficient revenue staff on trains - then try to extract fines from unsuspecting passengers.

Metrolink or Tyne and Wear Metro are different cases as ticket machines are provided and services are frequent enough to make it reasonable to wait for the next service whilst queuing for one's ticket.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Not easy for people with reduced mobility or people with impaired vision though....

In cases of mobility issues preventing someone reaching a ticket office, I would think a prosecution would be on very dodgy ground, unless the passenger incriminated themselves by expressing a choice not to buy a ticket.

 

[sheff1]

Northern Rail seem to want to have their cake and eat it - save money by not providing open ticket offices, working (or indeed any) ticket machines, or sufficient revenue staff on trains - then try to extract fines from unsuspecting passengers.

In fairness to Northern, I think they are trying to change a long entrenched 'custom & practice' position whereby people always bought on trains, either because it was impossible to buy at their departure station or (in the Paytrain zones) purchase of local tickets at the larger staffed stations was not wanted.

In my view, the issue seems to be that the way they have gone about it is catching out some unsuspecting passengers who are not aware of the changes - if there have not been ticket issuing facilities at your local station for the last xx years why would you start looking for them now; if you have paid on the train from Sheffield for the last xx years why would start going to the booking office now if the guard who sells you the ticket does not tell you things have changed ?

 

[34D]

That excuse is as ropey as a passenger saying they didnt know a ticket office existed at Cross Gates.

If you're a regular afternoon/evening/sunday passenger you won't though. If you approach the station from the stairs from the arndale centre car park (where many passengers would (though admittedly before the old footbridge was removed) you wouldn't think that the building at the top of the ramp at the other side which houses a flower shop also sometimes sells tickets!

 

[12CSVT]

Regarding Manchester Victoria, if the RPIs think that using a side exit to the station is 'fare evasion', then what exactly is the purpose of this exit ?

The subject of entrapment seems to appear all too regularly in these forums, and always involving Northern / G4S in the Manchester area. Maybe there ought to be a requirement in the next franchise to install ticket machines at stations in the Manchester area which don't already have them, and to install ticket gates at Manchester Victoria and Piccadilly (at locations within the stations where you would normally expect a ticket check to take place)

 

[WillPS]

Is a gateline at Piccadilly feasible?

 

[island]

It certainly is for platforms 13/14. And weren't First planning on doing the rest as part of their ill-fated ICWC bid?

 

[cuccir]

I'd have thought that barriers at Picadilly would be fairly straight forward if just done as a row between the concourse and the platforms? Of course then any valid ticket would let you through so it might be to broad to be worthwhile I guess. It would be harder to barrier separate platforms.

I've got to agree with other comments though. If a ticket exit isn't visible on a route out of the station, then either it needs to be made so (with clear, repeated signs with opening times attached) or it can't be taken as avoiding a fare. This is particularly true at smaller stations, where people might reasonably presume that there is no office.

 

[beeza1]

Can someone please explain how people, new rail users in particular are supposed to know you need to buy a ticket before boarding if facilities to do so are available?
This weekend I travelled from Hudds to Birmingham via Man Picc and returned via Sheffield, the only notice I saw the whole weekend stating this was at Sheffield, and to the casual observer it would appear this ruling only applied to East Midland Trains, I had a good look at the other stations but could not see any, maybe I didn't look in the right place.
On the Northern service from Sheff people were still buying their ticket from the guard even though they got on at Sheff.
Another small point, most of the stations on my local line are unmanned and don't have ticketing facilities, so if the guard doesn't come round before your destination it is not possible to buy a ticket, so I suppose anyone doing this would be guilty of fare evasion.
Reading some of these threads though it does seem the Ticket Inspectors are assuming everyone without a ticket is a "fare dodger", when this is clearly not the case.

 

[jonty14]

It seems to me that the ticketing system in the UK is so complicated and easy to get wrong, companies are using this to catch people out. How many fines have been made due to passenger confusion. I wonder how many people visiting the UK are caught out by the ticketing system then getting a hefty fine. Ticketing is a lot easier in other European countries.

Regards

 

[work-traveller]

Exiting Manchester Victoria without a ticket

I frequently pass through Victoria from New Bridge/Trinity Way to Corporation Street via the footbridge over the operation station. Whenever I encounter an RPI I always tell them I've come through from New Bridge/Trinity Way and have never been challenged or had to break my stride. Presumably they're having to make a split second decision on whether they believe you and/or feel like making something of it.

 

[cuccir]

Can someone please explain how people, new rail users in particular are supposed to know you need to buy a ticket before boarding if facilities to do so are available?

I don't ever remember not knowing this (and I was not really into rail until my mid-20s) and I'm not sure it quite flies as an argument - there's a level of responsibility to be taken here.

I must admit that before I came to this site, I didn't know how severe the consequences are/could be, but I always knew that at the very least you'd end up obliged to buy the most expensive ticket, and I think this is common (and reasonable!) knowledge. Of course, there are cases where it might be better signed.

... and to the casual observer it would appear this ruling only applied to East Midland Trains, ...

There's also a case to be made that any poster informing people about obligations/rights as conveyed in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage or railway acts/by-laws should be presented on a generic, non-TOC-branded poster in order to avoid confusion.

 

[island]

Can someone please explain how people, new rail users in particular are supposed to know you need to buy a ticket before boarding if facilities to do so are available?

It's the law mate. Ignorance is no excuse. Sorry to sound harsh but you're also supposed to know not to steal stuff from Tesco's, drive over 60mph on an open road, or leak government secrets.

 

[maniacmartin]

I think that any exit where there may be an RPI block should have TVMs at the relevant exit or platform *before* the block, plus clear signage.

Where this is not practical, exits that do not lead to ticket purchasing opportunities should have clear signage directing nonticketholders to the ticket office.

 

[beeza1]

cuccir,
I have only been using the trains on a regular basis for the last 3 or 4 years, and as most of my journeys start at unmanned stations I have to purchase my ticket on the train, this is "the norm" on Northern Rail services, I had never been officially told of the need to buy a ticket before travel if facilities exist untill quite recently, when I was stopped at Hudds and asked for my ticket, I said "I always get my ticket on the train, have done for years",(the Northern service to Sheffield),"sorry sir you need a ticket before you board, byelaw number ?", was the reply, fair play to him, he did let me go to the ticket office and buy one, but how was I supposed to know this?

 

[yorkie]

It's the law mate. Ignorance is no excuse. Sorry to sound harsh but you're also supposed to know not to steal stuff from Tesco's, drive over 60mph on an open road, or leak government secrets.

I don't think anyone is suggesting ignorance of the requirement to pay, more an ignorance of requirement (or expectation) to pay before boarding, but using the Tesco analogy, I guess the equivalent in Northern-land may be customers being used to picking up items and taking them to a checkout inside Tesco, rather than being expected to make a purchase before entering Tesco. Then, one day, be understandably surprised when a Tesco that requires purchases to be made before entering appears.

Yes, all analogies have limitations but in the minds of many passengers, buying on board a train is as acceptable as buying on board a bus, as that is the only way to get a ticket from their local station and Northern prosecuting customers isn't really the solution, and isn't acceptable unless there is clear intent.

 

[island]

I think that any exit where there may be an RPI block should have TVMs at the relevant exit or platform *before* the block, plus clear signage.

Excepting Southern, you can't use a TVM to buy a ticket after arriving (let's not get into the debate about reverse tickets please).

 

[cuccir]

cuccir,
I have only been using the trains on a regular basis for the last 3 or 4 years, and as most of my journeys start at unmanned stations I have to purchase my ticket on the train, this is "the norm" on Northern Rail services, I had never been officially told of the need to buy a ticket before travel if facilities exist untill quite recently, when I was stopped at Hudds and asked for my ticket, I said "I always get my ticket on the train, have done for years",(the Northern service to Sheffield),"sorry sir you need a ticket before you board, byelaw number ?", was the reply, fair play to him, he did let me go to the ticket office and buy one, but how was I supposed to know this?

When I was growing up I also lived in a largely rural area served by Northern Spirit/Arriva Trains Northern (not that I'd have known that at the time!), where the norm was to buy tickets on the train - there were only two staffed stations locally. My local station there was (and still is) unstaffed.

I still think it's reasonable to presume that if there's an opportunity to buy before you board, that you should do so, and I don't think that should come as shock (why presume that things work the same everywhere??).

However I do agree that the level of seriousness - fines of upwards of £100, and criminal records - isn't obvious, or broadly known.