Northern Rail - possible entrapment ?

[Tibbs]

When I was growing up I also lived in a largely rural area served by Northern Spirit/Arriva Trains Northern (not that I'd have known that at the time!), where the norm was to buy tickets on the train - there were only two staffed stations locally. My local station there was (and still is) unstaffed.

I still think it's reasonable to presume that if there's an opportunity to buy before you board, that you should do so, and I don't think that should come as shock (why presume that things work the same everywhere??).

However I do agree that the level of seriousness - fines of upwards of £100, and criminal records - isn't obvious, or broadly known.

I think the bit that isn't known or widely understood is that intent is irrelevant and, should a guard / RPI / TOC feel like it they can take you to court if you're on a train without a ticket when there were facilties to purchase at your starting station, irrespective of your reason for not doing so.

 

[beeza1]

cuccir, you seem to be missing my point, in "Northern land", as it has been refered to it is quite acceptable to buy your ticket on the train.
I have 2 points really,
1, If it is illegal to board without a ticket, why are they allowed to sell you a ticket on the train?
2. Why isn't there a prominent notice at every station explaining this?
I must add though that I thought buying your ticket on board only applied to local services, I always bought my ticket beforehand if I was travelling on the main lines.

 

[exile]

In most of northern land - ticket offices are only open in the morning (if there is one at all) - there are no ticket machines - and it's usual to buy tickets on the train. If for any reason the guard doesn't actually get round the train to sell tickets or has a non-working machine.... then you can end up travelling for nothing if you also get off at an unstaffed station.

 

[transmanche]

why presume that things work the same everywhere??

I grew up in NSE-land. It was obvious that you were required to purchase a ticket before travelling. Lots of signs, penalty fares, TVMs and PERTIS machines made this requirement abundantly clear. As it's National Rail why would/should I expect it to be different elsewhere?

When I moved north, I was surprised seeing so many people buying tickets on trains - even when boarding at stations with ticket offices and/or ticket machines - and them not having to pay full standard fare. Even now, it's automatic for me to buy a ticket before boarding - I've even missed trains to do so.

So i can well understand people who are used to buying on board, not being aware that officially they need to purchase tickets before travelling - where such facilities are available.

 

[Starmill]

Northern do have a load of "Buy BEFORE you board posters" but very little in the way of actual signs. There is a very old one at Mauldeth Road though which says something like "When the ticket office is open you must purchase a ticket there before boarding the train". Trouble is, it's on the southbound platform, quite a walk from the ticket office at the entrance to the opposite platform! You'd also have no way of knowing if it were open, as it is, it's only weekday mornings.

We also have a machine, which doesn't accept cash (SOO ANNOYING!) so I never use it. It has its advantages in that I can now collect pre-purchase tickets without a trip to Piccadilly, but the printing is hideous! They also don't seem to sell evening returns... cheeky gits.

Anyway, whenever I use the train at the weekend, there is always a G4S person with a ticket machine as part of the team checking tickets (this is at Piccadilly) who seem happy to sell the full range of tickets... and there never seems to be a problem. The couple of times I've been to Vic, the setup looks much the similar.

 

[maniacmartin]

Excepting Southern, you can't use a TVM to buy a ticket after arriving (let's not get into the debate about reverse tickets please).

Indeed. I think all TVMs should offer tickets for any origin and destination. Additionally, Northern could install TVMs with a big "Tickets for Arriving Passengers" buttons that inverted the mode so that the destination was the current station, and you chose an origin.

 

[34D]

Surely one solution is if you can't beat em join em, by which I mean acknowledging that sufficient TVMs or barriers can never be provided at many stations, and instead putting extra on board ticket sellers on every train.

For example, all/most peak Doncaster-Leeds stoppers have the guard and also have a ticket seller on board (the latter typically doing the front two coaches and the guard the rear two). One of the regular ones is/was a nice chap called Ken.

 

[nedchester]

For a while I have felt rather uncomfortable about Northerns approach. Yes they are technically correct in what they are doing but it is a case of a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

Often on rail forums we forget how complicated the ticket systems on the railway are for the general public. Train companies put out mixed messages about when and where you can buy a ticket. I would reckon that the vast majority of passengers would not think of it as a criminal offence to leave the station via an exit which doesn't pass a ticket office. Their attitude (rightly or wrongly) would be that it's the railways fault that they didn't get them to buy a ticket.

 

[YorkshireLass]

As someone who doesn't know an awful lot about the rules and regulations but does know you are supposed to purchase a ticket before you travel, Northern do have ways of discouraging this!

For example, I regularly travel from Earlestown (have a season ticket now so less of a problem). As some of you might know Earlestown is laid out in a triangular arrangement. I enter the station from platform 5 (nearest my house) and usual travel from platform 4 (into Piccadilly). The ticket office is outside platform 1. So, at peak time (8am ish) on a Monday morning, I duly wander over a couple of footbridges off to Platform 1 to get a ticket only to find a sign saying "Staff on other duties. Please buy a ticket on the train". So I wander back to platform 4 ticketless. Now because of the way Earlestown is laid out that isn't an inconsiderable walk, especially for people with children or mobility problems. And it's happened regularly enough for me to see why people probably wouldn't bother walking over there on the off-change someone is there to sell them a ticket.

Hence, the 'buy a ticket on the train' attitude is fairly entrenched and with some reason.

p.s. there are no ticket machines at Earlestown so that's not an option.

 

[neilmc]

I went from Victoria to Halifax this morning and was treated to the sight of no less than FIFTEEN ticket checkers congregated at the main entrance, and they looked much more like nightclub bouncers than yer average railway employee. There were also a line of five on the Metrolink platforms, who were still there when I returned at tea time, and seemed to be writing away furiously on pads. Guess somebody recouped some revenue then.

 

[Greenback]

For a while I have felt rather uncomfortable about Northerns approach. Yes they are technically correct in what they are doing but it is a case of a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

Often on rail forums we forget how complicated the ticket systems on the railway are for the general public. Train companies put out mixed messages about when and where you can buy a ticket. I would reckon that the vast majority of passengers would not think of it as a criminal offence to leave the station via an exit which doesn't pass a ticket office. Their attitude (rightly or wrongly) would be that it's the railways fault that they didn't get them to buy a ticket.

I do have some sympathy (well, quite a lot actually!) with someone who catches a train from a station with no ticket facilities and then cannot buy one on the train either.

If they then alight at a large station with ticket sellign facilities, they may be faced with a detour in order to locate a ticket office, then a queue, all of which causes a delay that is not the fault of the traveller. In those circumstances, morally if not legally, the TOC should take some responsibility for the situation, as it is they, not the passanger, that has failed to provide purchasing facilities eithe rbefore or during travel.

Of course, the main problem with this is that some chancers will deliberately avoid buying a ticket on board even if the guard is ready and able to sell one. As usual, it's difficult to tell the honest from the dishonest.

 

[12CSVT]

I do have some sympathy (well, quite a lot actually!) with someone who catches a train from a station with no ticket facilities and then cannot buy one on the train either.

If they then alight at a large station with ticket sellign facilities, they may be faced with a detour in order to locate a ticket office, then a queue, all of which causes a delay that is not the fault of the traveller. In those circumstances, morally if not legally, the TOC should take some responsibility for the situation, as it is they, not the passanger, that has failed to provide purchasing facilities eithe rbefore or during travel.

Of course, the main problem with this is that some chancers will deliberately avoid buying a ticket on board even if the guard is ready and able to sell one. As usual, it's difficult to tell the honest from the dishonest.

A case of the TOCs wanting to 'have their cake and eat it'.

In particular, Northern seem to want to have it both ways - ie, not pay for ticket offices to be manned yet they expect passengers to inconvenience themselves looking for a ticket office at their destination if there were no ticket issuing facilities at their originationg station or on the train.

 

[BestWestern]

As railway staff, I'd have to agree with the OP here. It is totally unacceptable for a TOC to take the view that passengers should 'just know' that they have to buy tickets before travelling, particularly when in many cases people are freely sold discounted tickets on the train. Allowing Guards & ATE's etc to sell whatever tickets they like on board every day of the week, and then stinging those same passengers for penalty fares when an RPI happens to turn up, is plain wrong, no two ways about it, but it happens time and again in certain places. As for unstaffed stations, if a TOC wishes to operate a penalty fare zone it really should be mandatory for all stations in that area to have open tickets offices or TVM's, with one or the other available at all times. No opportunity to buy before hand, no penalty fares; that would surely be a fair approach?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Passenger Focus isn't silent on this matter either, particulary the inconsistencies in the policy and practice of enforcement.
Here's an extract from the Autumn edition of its publication 'Passenger Voice'

Innocent passengers caught in ticket crackdown

Passengers using Britain’s rail network face very
inconsistent treatment when travelling without a ‘valid’
ticket, a new report from Passenger Focus has revealed.
Passengers who make an innocent mistake can find
themselves facing a hefty bill, or in some of the worst
cases, a criminal prosecution.

Rail Minister Norman Baker said: “Passengers have a right
for the rules to be consistently applied across all operators.
It is worrying if Passenger Focus has found that this is not
case. It is in the interests of train operating companies that
passengers are confident in what they are buying.”

Passenger Focus wants to see:
• The introduction of a code of practice for non Penalty
Fare areas which sets out clear and consistent guidelines
on how passengers who board without a ‘valid’ ticket
should be dealt with.
• Passengers should only face criminal prosecution when
there is proof of intent to defraud
• Greater flexibility when a passenger can prove they
bought a valid ticket but cannot produce the ticket (or all
of them) when asked
• Greater transparency on how many penalties are issued,
for what, and how many appeals are upheld or overturned.

The Association of Train Operating Companies has already
agreed to co-ordinate the drawing up of national guidelines
to ensure more consistent treatment of passengers.

Source : Passenger Voice Autumn 2012

 

[sheff1]

I still think it's reasonable to presume that if there's an opportunity to buy before you board, that you should do so, and I don't think that should come as shock

Well if travellers were told years ago not to go to the booking office because tickets for local trains were not available there and could only bought on the train and , since then, tickets of all types have always been sold on the trains without query, would it not be reasonable to make sure any changes in policy were well publicised, particulalry by ticket sellers on said trains ?

This re-education has not happened on Northern with any consistency and I am not surprised people are shocked when they find out one day that things have indeed changed.

 

[Starmill]

A case of the TOCs wanting to 'have their cake and eat it'.

In particular, Northern seem to want to have it both ways - ie, not pay for ticket offices to be manned yet they expect passengers to inconvenience themselves looking for a ticket office at their destination if there were no ticket issuing facilities at their originationg station or on the train.

I could not agree more. Grr.

AND TODAY! Not only was the ticket office closed at Mauldeth Road and the machine out of order, which I wouldn't have used anyway because it doesn't accept cash, when I got to Piccadilly (guard didn't make it down the train) and got in the queue on plat. 9 the man with a G4S ID badge was more interested in making faces at the guard of the departing train than serving me, clearly, because he just held his hand out after I asked for my ticket.

God knows how close my response got me to a penalty fare or similar, but how dare you assume I already know how much my ticket costs. And am I the only person who thinks its rude to put your palm out to someone? At least he printed it correctly though, because in the past I have given them back child tickets they printed me when I needed a LACON one. It must just be laziness - it takes longer to find it in the machine?

As I'm sure you can tell, I'm having some serious beef with Northern.

 

[dfurn]

Just being annoyed with a G4S person would not get you a penalty fare would it?

I wonder, in spite of Northern's behaviour, have we actually seen any evidence of anyone getting a penalty fare when there was no way they could have actually bought a ticket? Or is the issue here the fact that people have to queue for ages to buy a ticket when they get to their destination?

If you have to queue for over an hour could you claim to have been delayed on your journey and hence ask for a refund. That'd be ironic.

The same happens at Leeds by the way; I often see a long queue at the ticket stand near the platforms from Ilkley/Shipley way.

 

[Ferret]

I do not get this utter obsession with not having ticket offices at railway stations. Last time I looked, we are a service industry, and having staff visible at stations should be a mandatory franchise commitment. This shambles of a situation is right-wingism at its worst, and it needs knocking on the head, urgently.

As for those goons at Picc, even I've had a row with one, and I'm staff. I held a valid PRIV ticket, but not according to him. Some bollards about PRIV not being valid to the airport. He tried to withdraw my passes, which I declined to allow, told him that he needed to go away and learn about the validity of tickets and do it urgently if he intended to remain in his role, informed him that I was walking off to catch a VT to Crewe, and to call the Police if he wanted. I further reminded him that wasting Police time was a criminal offence, and I would make a complaint to the Police about that if he did so. Furthermore, I'd make it my business to ensure he was disciplined. He didn't like that one bit, and started ranting and raving as I walked off. Unsurprisingly, the Police never showed up on that Pendolino...so either he thought better of it, or the BTP told him where to get off.

 

[island]

I do not get this utter obsession with not having ticket offices at railway stations. Last time I looked, we are a service industry, and having staff visible at stations should be a mandatory franchise commitment. This shambles of a situation is right-wingism at its worst, and it needs knocking on the head, urgently.

Even at a station like Three Oaks?

 

[Ferret]

Even at a station like Three Oaks?

Preferably every station, although I accept that some small shacks in the middle of nowhere might not justify it - places like Peartree or Spondon where next to no trains stop.

 

[185]

Understaffing at Manchester Victoria at lunchtime yesterday left just one window open. With one guy struggling to serve customers and the other in the back office taking guards' avantix machines off them, the queue stretched across the concourse.

It's all fair and well for Northern to mention their investment in fancy ticket machines, but when they can't sell the ticket you want or people simply don't trust them, that argument is irrelevent.

 

[Ferret]

People just don't want to use them. Oh, and of course, I can't - no PRIV discount available!

 

[transmanche]

I do not get this utter obsession with not having ticket offices at railway stations. Last time I looked, we are a service industry, and having staff visible at stations should be a mandatory franchise commitment.

But you can have one without the other; i.e. you can have visible staff st a station without the need to have a manned ticket office. In fact that would be my preference for many stations; I'd rather have staff visible in public areas, rather than hidden and locked away in a ticket office.

 

[Ferret]

That's fair comment too Transmanche, but given that the public do not 'get' ticketing, asking them to use a machine is asking for trouble.

 

[185]

But you can have one without the other; i.e. you can have visible staff st a station without the need to have a manned ticket office. In fact that would be my preference for many stations; I'd rather have staff visible in public areas, rather than hidden and locked away in a ticket office.

Reminds me of Warrington Central, where the 'platform' staff see the platform about three times a day, once on starting work, once on finishing work and once enroute to the bookies.

Having a booking office, if placed in the correct spot ensures a permanent visible staff presence, effectively a deterrent to antisocial behaviour. Merseytravel have the right idea, putting TfGM the other PTEs to shame.

 

[snail]

Just being annoyed with a G4S person would not get you a penalty fare would it?

I wonder, in spite of Northern's behaviour, have we actually seen any evidence of anyone getting a penalty fare when there was no way they could have actually bought a ticket?

Northern don't do penalty fares.

 

[185]

Just being annoyed with a G4S person would not get you a penalty fare would it?

I wonder, in spite of Northern's behaviour, have we actually seen any evidence of anyone getting a penalty fare when there was no way they could have actually bought a ticket? Or is the issue here the fact that people have to queue for ages to buy a ticket when they get to their destination?

If you have to queue for over an hour could you claim to have been delayed on your journey and hence ask for a refund. That'd be ironic.

The same happens at Leeds by the way; I often see a long queue at the ticket stand near the platforms from Ilkley/Shipley way.

Think he means prosecuted.

 

[dfurn]

Think he means prosecuted.

Well actually I was quoting:

God knows how close my response got me to a penalty fare or similar, but how dare you assume I already know how much my ticket costs.

I suppose I should have said "Just being annoyed with a G4S person would not get you a penalty fare or similar would it?"

 

[Starmill]

Well actually I was quoting:



I suppose I should have said "Just being annoyed with a G4S person would not get you a penalty fare or similar would it?"

Dunno. They're clunks, the lot of them. As Ferret has so happily pointed out.
Since everyone else's attitude (including the passengers) seems to be "grin and bear it" - I'm glad I'm not alone. Perhaps Northern just ought to ditch G4S (they're not good for much else, as the Olympics taught us). Or at least give them some basic training!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

People just don't want to use them. Oh, and of course, I can't - no PRIV discount available!

I make it a point never to use one - mainly because I have yet to find one (or indeed, any website) willing to issue me with a ticket to a metrolink zone! I can do it the other way around though quite easily (by buying a Railzone 1 ticket).

 

[sheff1]

Having a booking office, if placed in the correct spot ensures a permanent visible staff presence, effectively a deterrent to antisocial behaviour. Merseytravel have the right idea, putting TfGM the other PTEs to shame.

Agreed. The volume of traffic from some of the Northern, TfGM or Metro stations without ticket offices at all, or ones with very limited hours, is considerable.

A good example is Widnes. The long distance Liverpool - Norwich trains stop here and there is much more traffic than at Hough Green, the next stop down the line and effectively just a suburb of Widnes with local trains only. However, Hough Green is staffed from first to last train as it come under Merseytravel, whereas Widnes, being Northern, has an open ticket office in the morning only.