• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Justine Greening to be moved in forthcoming cabinet reshuffle?

Status
Not open for further replies.

SwindonPkwy

Member
Joined
2 Aug 2011
Messages
273
Location
Swindon.
The Daily Telegraph reports that Justine Greening may be moved in a forthcoming cabinet reshuffle. It is stated that her opposition to a third runway at Heathrow is the main reason.
In spite of their manifesto pledge, the cabinet seems to be increasingly pro the third runway, especially when business leaders cite it as major factor in economic recovery.
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Bayum

Established Member
Joined
21 Mar 2008
Messages
3,297
Location
Leeds
In fairness, Justine Greening has turned into a political nightmare for the Tories.


Her opposition to the third runway at Heathrow is cited as the main reason, which I believe to be totally fair. The investment into Heathrow first and foremost, before investment at other airports is surely the way forward economically, and when compared to Johnson's reclaimed land in the Thames estuary... I think we all know which is more attractive...


The media frenzy created as a result of First being award the WCML franchise, coupled with Osbourne's threats of no realistic funding for HS2 has put her centre stage in the media, with no real effort or explanation proper as to the reasons first group won. We know they have said they will act x amount, introduce trains here there and everywhere - but people don't seem to be happy with that as it stands. The 24hr delay in announcing the franchise has still gone unexplained and I've heard a few questioning why.


The pulling of politics in trying to reduce rail fare increases (again) is sure to make her less popular within the parties where they are wanting as much money as possible to goto the new franchise winner, is sure to be causing controversy with some members, whereas others are on the side of Greening for great of losing seats if fares do rise.

All in all, she's great for the public... Doesnt really have much to say for herself... But is clearly causing a raucous behind the scenes for such a movement to be considered.
 

Morgsie

Member
Joined
3 Jun 2011
Messages
387
Location
Stoke-On-Trent
The Government is a Coalition and the other Party, the Lib Dem's are opposed to a third runway. The Party is discussing aviation at Conference, motion can be found online in the Conference Agenda.

On Justine Greening, I have not heard it. If she does move, will Theresa Villiers be promoted?

I expected Villiers to be promoted when Philip Hammond moved to Defence

No mention of Justine in this article: http://aggbot.com/UK-News-Feeds/369/article/17647939
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
32,939
Location
Fenny Stratford
The Government is a Coalition and the other Party, the Lib Dem's are opposed to a third runway. The Party is discussing aviation at Conference, motion can be found online in the Conference Agenda.

:roll::roll: If the Tories want it it will happen regardless of what the lackeys, sorry Lib Dems think, want or say. How is the House of Lords reform coming on?

She might get moved anyway as she seems popular within the Tory party and has some presence with the public at large but if policy has shifted to a pro third runway for Heathrow position you cant have an anti in the department.
 

SwindonPkwy

Member
Joined
2 Aug 2011
Messages
273
Location
Swindon.
Here is the link.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9493489/Cabinet-reshuffle-is-driven-by-plans-for-Heathrow-expansion.html
 
Last edited:

WatcherZero

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2010
Messages
10,272
Will be a dark day if Hunt gets the Department, hes a self serving gob****e like Gove and he also will be looking for rapid promotion elsewhere so the musical chairs continues. Warsi out is to be expected, will miss Clark as hes one of the few liberal pro-eu left in the Conservatives but after a good first year he hasnt really made much impact in the second year of the Government and Cameron needs to move several paces to the right to appease his backbenchers he no longer needs to court the left of the party by having Clark. Will be unhappy to see Laws back in Cabinet, a case of his influence in the Lib Dem party outstripping his poor performance in a ministerial post, its claimed his brief will be to prevent Lib Dem-Conservative infighting (he was a major advocate of the coalition in the first place and rewarded with Treasury post) and to try and stop the Conservatives claiming credit for social policies compatible with Lib Dem ideals. Laws you may remember was kicked out of Government after just 17 days for illegally claiming £40,000 in allowances for a second home that he was actually renting from his long term partner, his defence was he was making the fradulent payments to disguise his sexuality.

The concept that Cameron is going to promote people on loyalty and performance as a whip instead of talent in the brief doesnt bode well, yes he runs a fractious highly rebelious party but hes telling his MP's if they want a job they have to be a toady.
 
Last edited:

Morgsie

Member
Joined
3 Jun 2011
Messages
387
Location
Stoke-On-Trent
Will be a dark day if Hunt gets the Department, hes a self serving gob****e like Gove and he also will be looking for rapid promotion elsewhere so the musical chairs continues. Warsi out is to be expected, will miss Clark as hes one of the few liberal pro-eu left in the Conservatives but after a good first year he hasnt really made much impact in the second year of the Government and Cameron needs to move several paces to the right to appease his backbenchers he no longer needs to court the left of the party by having Clark. Will be unhappy to see Laws back in Cabinet, a case of his influence in the Lib Dem party outstripping his poor performance in a ministerial post, its claimed his brief will be to prevent Lib Dem-Conservative infighting (he was a major advocate of the coalition in the first place and rewarded with Treasury post) and to try and stop the Conservatives claiming credit for social policies compatible with Lib Dem ideals. Laws you may remember was kicked out of Government after just 17 days for illegally claiming £40,000 in allowances for a second home that he was actually renting from his long term partner, his defence was he was making the fradulent payments to disguise his sexuality.

The concept that Cameron is going to promote people on loyalty and performance as a whip instead of talent in the brief doesnt bode well, yes he runs a fractious highly rebelious party but hes telling his MP's if they want a job they have to be a toady.

Jeremy Hunt at Transport (pukes), he should be on the Backbenches.
Warsi may be removed from the Chair of the Tory but will probably be in Government. Caroline Spellman is another vulnerable Tory. I like Ken due to your reasons stated and hope he stays.

David Laws claimed to keep his privacy because he did not want the public knowing he is gay. The Tories like him and he is one of the intellectual Lib Dems

If Justine moves then will Villiers replace her?
 
Last edited:

PhilipW

Member
Joined
6 Feb 2008
Messages
761
Location
Fareham, Hants
The Daily Telegraph reports that Justine Greening will be moved in a forthcoming cabinet reshuffle. It is stated that her opposition to a third runway at Heathrow is the main reason.
In spite of their manifesto pledge, the cabinet seems to be increasingly pro the third runway, especially when business leaders cite it as major factor in economic recovery.

The article is a piece of speculation, not a reporting of facts. It says that Justine Greening may be moved, not that she will be moved.

Notwithstanding that, the article may still be an approved leak to soften us all up to the likelihood that she will be moving on.
 

SwindonPkwy

Member
Joined
2 Aug 2011
Messages
273
Location
Swindon.
PhilipW said:
The article is a piece of speculation, not a reporting of facts. It says that Justine Greening may be moved, not that she will be moved.

Point taken. I have edited the OP.
 

SwindonPkwy

Member
Joined
2 Aug 2011
Messages
273
Location
Swindon.
It was possibly a little shortsighted of the Labour Party to ditch their support for the third runway. I doubt it would have entailed major public spending and they have lost the opportunity to crow at 'another coalition u-turn'.
Personally, I had a lot of time for Lord Adonis. Not something I can say for Hammond or Greening.
 

jimm

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2012
Messages
5,276
Will be unhappy to see Laws back in Cabinet, a case of his influence in the Lib Dem party outstripping his poor performance in a ministerial post

What poor performance would that be? He was Chief Secretary to the Treasury for all of 17 days, so hard to make any judgment on his abilities as a minister on that basis.
 

scandal

Member
Joined
13 Apr 2009
Messages
109
Location
European Union
It was possibly a little shortsighted of the Labour Party to ditch their support for the third runway. I doubt it would have entailed major public spending and they have lost the opportunity to crow at 'another coalition u-turn'.

Absolutely not, it was disappointing how long it took the Labour party and the DfT to come to the conclusion that actually it wasn't a wise idea. There are three major airports in London and the South East, Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted, all with direct rail links from central London delivering a total of 4 runways. If the arguments from the aviation industry are to be believed that bigger planes will operate and be more efficient then this will reduce demand on runways as less planes are required to meet the demand. Looking into the future the current levels of aviation are unsustainable and instead of promotion aviation we should be looking at promoting more eco-friendly forms of transport, in simple cost terms since both are about £9bn, would you rather have a 3rd runway at Heathrow, benefiting those in the South East or High Speed 2 to Birmingham?
 

exile

Established Member
Joined
16 Jul 2011
Messages
1,342
Absolutely not, it was disappointing how long it took the Labour party and the DfT to come to the conclusion that actually it wasn't a wise idea. There are three major airports in London and the South East, Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted, all with direct rail links from central London delivering a total of 4 runways. If the arguments from the aviation industry are to be believed that bigger planes will operate and be more efficient then this will reduce demand on runways as less planes are required to meet the demand. Looking into the future the current levels of aviation are unsustainable and instead of promotion aviation we should be looking at promoting more eco-friendly forms of transport, in simple cost terms since both are about £9bn, would you rather have a 3rd runway at Heathrow, benefiting those in the South East or High Speed 2 to Birmingham?

I don't think 9 billion would pay for HS2...... anyway, stand by for Osborne to make massive cuts in all capital projects within the next couple of months following the recent bad deficit figures....
 
Joined
9 Jul 2011
Messages
825
.....would you rather have a 3rd runway at Heathrow, benefiting those in the South East or High Speed 2 to Birmingham?
They're not comparable as the runway would be provided and mostly funded entirely by the private airport operator, whereas HS2 is a publicly funded infrastructure project.
It certainly shouldn't be a case of either or; both are needed.
 

Requeststop

Member
Joined
21 Jan 2012
Messages
1,001
Location
Carbis Bay, St Ives, Cornwall
I think I am correct is saying that there have been more SOS's for Transport in the last 20 years than any other department in the UK government. If Madame Greening is sent elsewhere it'll be a sad day for the Department and UK Rail. She has been the best in a very long time - and I am proud to say that I have NEVER voted Tory in my life.
 

WatcherZero

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2010
Messages
10,272
Its the unique position of the Transport Department, its seen as a good job and a difficult job but not one of the best jobs (like Defence, Treasury, Health, Education) so the people that occupy it are usually those on an upward career trajectory.
 

Morgsie

Member
Joined
3 Jun 2011
Messages
387
Location
Stoke-On-Trent
Its the unique position of the Transport Department, its seen as a good job and a difficult job but not one of the best jobs (like Defence, Treasury, Health, Education) so the people that occupy it are usually those on an upward career trajectory.

Or for those on the way out
 

SouthernHRH

Member
Joined
16 Mar 2012
Messages
11
Absolutely not, it was disappointing how long it took the Labour party and the DfT to come to the conclusion that actually it wasn't a wise idea. There are three major airports in London and the South East, Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted, all with direct rail links from central London delivering a total of 4 runways. If the arguments from the aviation industry are to be believed that bigger planes will operate and be more efficient then this will reduce demand on runways as less planes are required to meet the demand. Looking into the future the current levels of aviation are unsustainable and instead of promotion aviation we should be looking at promoting more eco-friendly forms of transport, in simple cost terms since both are about £9bn, would you rather have a 3rd runway at Heathrow, benefiting those in the South East or High Speed 2 to Birmingham?

IMO, that is a very narrow-minded way of looking at it.

Airport expansion is needed in the south-east, this is a fact. You state that bigger, more fuel efficient planes will be used in the future for air passenger routes, this is true with the introduction of the Airbus A380 and the Boeing 777-300 within the last 5 years. However, your point about these new aircraft leading to there being a need for less aircraft to meet demand is crazy. One key point is these aircraft are long haul aircraft, and as such they will only ever serve long haul destinations. Meaning, you are not going to see LHR-MAN going from around 8 daily A319s to 5 daily A380s, as A) its un-economical and B) its not practical. Like rail, routes like London to Manchester need regular shuttle services, allowing for connections on to onward flights. If you cut the number of flights on the route from 8 to 5 like above, but using bigger aircraft, yes the number of seats available will still be the same, and yes less flights are needed, but that means connections for passengers have decreased. This then leads to passengers connecting through other airports like Amsterdam meaning lost economic benefit. The fact is, more runway capacity is needed in the UK to allow for more flights from more UK airports through Heathrow and onwards to the rest of the world. At present Amsterdam has flights to more UK airports than Heathrow does.

This debate has been done many times over the past few years, the answer is that capacity is needed in the South-east, particularly Heathrow, and it was needed yesterday.
 

6Gman

Established Member
Joined
1 May 2012
Messages
9,215
Will be unhappy to see Laws back in Cabinet, a case of his influence in the Lib Dem party outstripping his poor performance in a ministerial post,

Laws you may remember was kicked out of Government after just 17 days for illegally claiming £40,000 in allowances for a second home that he was actually renting from his long term partner, his defence was he was making the fradulent payments to disguise his sexuality.

I'm reluctant to stray into politics, but ....

1. As you point out, Laws only spent 17 days as a Minister so it seems rather harsh to refer to "his poor performance in a ministerial post"! You can assess performance based on 17 days ?

2. If what he did was "illegal" why wasn't he prosecuted? Several MPs and at least two Lords have faced prosecution so it's not that they are exempt. The fact is that his actions were unwise, in breach of House of Commons rules, but not illegal.

3. Laws did not benefit financially. Had he been open about his relationship with his 'landlord' he could actually have claimed more!

Actually, Laws as Transport Secretary could be quite appealing - he would certainly expect NR, the TOCs, the ROSCOs and all the other parts of our fragmented industry to be on their toes!
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
18,059
Location
Reston City Centre
Its the unique position of the Transport Department, its seen as a good job and a difficult job but not one of the best jobs (like Defence, Treasury, Health, Education) so the people that occupy it are usually those on an upward career trajectory.

True - it's a stepping stone department, hence us getting lots of Transport people over the last decade - frustrating because it's a department that needs some long term strategy.
 

WatcherZero

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2010
Messages
10,272
I'm reluctant to stray into politics, but ....
3. Laws did not benefit financially. Had he been open about his relationship with his 'landlord' he could actually have claimed more!

Untrue as it was owned outright no payments could be claimed, The Standards and Privileges Committee also said the rent was in excess of the market rate. He was claiming £1100 a month for a single room in a £197,000 house. Parliamentary rules also ban an MP from renting a house from a partner. The committee decided that repayment and loss of his cabinet job was punishment enough for defrauding the taxpayer of £40,000. If he gets that cabinet job back it makes a mockery of the ruling.

As to 17 days not being enough to prove a track record? In those 17 days he axed baby bonds, froze investment in transport and other public capital spending (the one year freeze that many economists will tell you was responsible for the double dip as public spending dried up overnight) and cancelled several projects outright that were then hastily reapproved only 12 months later.
 

jimm

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2012
Messages
5,276
Untrue as it was owned outright no payments could be claimed, The Standards and Privileges Committee also said the rent was in excess of the market rate. He was claiming £1100 a month for a single room in a £197,000 house. Parliamentary rules also ban an MP from renting a house from a partner. The committee decided that repayment and loss of his cabinet job was punishment enough for defrauding the taxpayer of £40,000. If he gets that cabinet job back it makes a mockery of the ruling.

As to 17 days not being enough to prove a track record? In those 17 days he axed baby bonds, froze investment in transport and other public capital spending (the one year freeze that many economists will tell you was responsible for the double dip as public spending dried up overnight) and cancelled several projects outright that were then hastily reapproved only 12 months later.

In those 17 days what he was doing was implementing the collectively-agreed policy of the Government. That's what ministers do. So no, you can't prove anything about his personal capabilities or performance as a minister on the basis of those 17 days.

Had there been a Lab-Lib coalition, or a Labour government, some minister would likely have found themselves being told make similar urgent cuts, given the state of Government finances.
 

scandal

Member
Joined
13 Apr 2009
Messages
109
Location
European Union
Airport expansion is needed in the south-east, this is a fact

In response to your arguments the fundamental point is that air travel demand is falling and the demand is weakening, no matter what spin you may have read the cold hard facts show that it is nowhere near the levels of the early 2000s and I suggest unlikely to ever return considering the increasing costs of fuel, taxation and the greater political dominance of environmentalism and sustainability.

My point about the new aircraft is that actually the predicted demand expected can be managed and sustained with the current available capacity in London and the South East Airports. In regards to your Heathrow to Manchester aircraft this is where my point and link the High Speed 2 was made, costs of fuel are increasing and so more efficient use of assets will be needed, is it really economical to send 3 737s a day to shuttle transfers or to use High Speed 2? Hence my arguments of HS2 versus Heathrow Runway 3, cost is actually comparable if you read the Treasurys figures for HS2 Phase 1.

Like rail, routes like London to Manchester need regular shuttle services, allowing for connections on to onward flights

The connecting argument I find hard to take, you seem to make a comparison to rail, but as Cross Country demonstrated when redesigning there network is that people when making long journeys prefer to travel direct even if it takes longer, whats to say that people want to connect at Heathrow rather then Amsterdam, Frankfurt or even fly direct? Air travel unlike rail is pre-booked and so passengers are well prepared and make sufficient plans for their journey, I'd be interested to compare the loadings of these Manchester to Heathrow services with the West Coast Main Line and time distance from Manchester City Centre to Heathrow Departure Gate for both combined.

Whether BAA, the UK Government or the various private sector conglomerations in the UK like it the UK is seriously falling foul of EU Air Quality standards, to the point that shortly they will be facing serious fines for this, it doesn't take a genius to realise that adding an additional runway to Heathrow will do nothing to this already in breach area of Hillingdon. Firstly we have the increasing levels of pollution, firstly from aircraft, whilst I have made the point that aircraft are becoming more fuel efficient and so less emissions this improvement is a drop in the ocean compared to the additional flights planned with the 3rd runway. Secondly an additional terminal and thousands of extra flights will boost demand for surface transport to and from the already congested area of Heathrow, part of the idea is for Crossrail but with Heathrow gaining a larger share of the air travel market travellers will need to be travelling across from areas not in Central London. Noise pollution will increase with the rise in number of aircraft, holding patterns will need to be adjusted and large parts of West London are likely to suffer.

We of course then have the destruction of at least 700 homes, with figures stretching up to 4,000 and the loss of villages and communities in the name of progress, I don't stand in the way of progress when their is a concise and logical reason, something this case is in deficit of.

This then leads to passengers connecting through other airports like Amsterdam meaning lost economic benefit.

Can you demonstrate any tangible evidence of this lost economic benefit? Suggesting that when passengers transfer they spend money in the airport is rather a poor argument, especially considering most of the retail units are owned by large multinational companies.

As I say London already has 4 runways, all connected by dedicated fast rail links from Central London, no matter how much BAA may like to say it, London and the South East has spare capacity. If you don't believe me read the independent 2010 report which used the same economic modelling program as the DfT but updated the input data on economic growth rates, carbon prices, fuel prices and other variables. The outcome of all that was the UK economy would actually be £5bn worse off, but of course people never let facts stand in the way of progress.....
 
Last edited:

HH

Established Member
Joined
31 Jul 2009
Messages
4,505
Location
Essex
Can you demonstrate any tangible evidence of this lost economic benefit? Suggesting that when passengers transfer they spend money in the airport is rather a poor argument, especially considering most of the retail units are owned by large multinational companies.

That this happens is well-known. Airports employ staff; if business is booming they employ more. There are also knock-on effects to the local economy, e.g. someone has to supply the food. There are considerable economic benefits. Even detractors normally realise this.
 

PR1Berske

Established Member
Joined
27 Jul 2010
Messages
3,025
Margaret Thatcher (1979)

1] 1979-1981 - Norman Fowler (Minister of Transport)
2] Jan 81 - Sept 81 - Norman Fowler (SoS for Transport)
3] Sept 81 - June 83 - David Howell (SoS)
4] June 83 - Oct 83 - Tom King (SoS)
5] Oct 83 - May 86 - Nicholas Ridley (SoS)
6] May 86 - June 87 - John Moore (SoS)
7] June 87 - July 89 - Paul Channon (SoS)
8] July 89 - Nov 90 - Cecil Parkinson (SoS)

John Major (1990)

1] Nov 90 - Apr 92 - Malcolm Rifkind (SoS)
2] Apr 92 - Jul 94 - John MacGregor (SoS)
3] Jul 94 - Jul 95 - Brian Mawhinney (SoS)
4] July 95 - May 97 - Sir George Young (SoS)

Tony Blair (1997)

1] May 97 - July 1998 - Gavin Strang (Minister for Transport)
2] July 98 - May 99 - John Reid (Mins.)
3] May 99 - July 99 - Helen Liddell (Mins.)
4] July 99 - June 2001 - Lord Macdonald of Tradeston (Mins.)
5] June 01 - May 2002 - John Spellar (Mins.)
6] May 02 - May 06 - Alistair Darling (SoS)
7] May 06 - June 07 - Douglas Alexander (SoS)

Gordon Brown (2007)

1] June 07 - Oct 08 - Ruth Kelly (SoS)
2] Oct 08 - June 09 - Geoff Hoon (SoS)
3] June 09 - May 10 - Lord Adonis (SoS)

David Cameron (2010)

1] May 10 - Oct 11 - Philip Hammond (SoS)
2] Oct 11 to date - Justine Greening (SoS)
 
Last edited:

Metroland

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2005
Messages
3,212
Location
Midlands
That this happens is well-known. Airports employ staff; if business is booming they employ more. There are also knock-on effects to the local economy, e.g. someone has to supply the food. There are considerable economic benefits. Even detractors normally realise this.

The overall effect is all very debatable (as it is for any form of transport for that matter). The UK operates an enormous tourist deficit, more and more jobs have been outsourced abroad and the aviation industry is an enabler to that, there are external costs, and so on.
 

SwindonPkwy

Member
Joined
2 Aug 2011
Messages
273
Location
Swindon.
PR1Berske said:
Margaret Thatcher (1979)

1] 1979-1981 - Norman Fowler (Minister of Transport)
2] Jan 81 - Sept 81 - Norman Fowler (SoS for Transport)
3] Sept 81 - June 83 - David Howell (SoS)
4] June 83 - Oct 83 - Tom King (SoS)
5] Oct 83 - May 86 - Nicholas Ridley (SoS)
6] May 86 - June 87 - John Moore (SoS)
7] June 87 - July 89 - Paul Channon (SoS)
8] July 89 - Nov 90 - Cecil Parkinson (SoS)

John Major (1990)

1] Nov 90 - Apr 92 - Malcolm Rifkind (SoS)
2] Apr 92 - Jul 94 - John MacGregor (SoS)
3] Jul 94 - Jul 95 - Brian Mawhinney (SoS)
4] July 95 - May 97 - Sir George Young (SoS)

Tony Blair (1997)

1] May 97 - July 1998 - Gavin Strang (Minister for Transport)
2] July 98 - May 99 - John Reid (Mins.)
3] May 99 - July 99 - Helen Liddell (Mins.)
4] July 99 - June 2001 - Lord Macdonald of Tradeston (Mins.)
5] June 01 - May 2002 - John Spellar (Mins.)
6] May 02 - May 06 - Alistair Darling (SoS)
7] May 06 - June 07 - Douglas Alexander (SoS)

Gordon Brown (2007)

1] June 07 - Oct 08 - Ruth Kelly (SoS)
2] Oct 08 - June 09 - Geoff Hoon (SoS)
3] June 09 - May 10 - Lord Adonis (SoS)

David Cameron (2010)

1] May 10 - Oct 11 - Philip Hammond (SoS)
2] Oct 11 to date - Justine Greening (SoS)

The list really illustrates the lack of stability in the transport role. Interesting to see Alistair Darling served for four years under Blair.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Metroland said:
The overall effect is all very debatable (as it is for any form of transport for that matter).

Which is why it should be investigated by an independent panel with a remit to consider all options. The coalition government wasted time by not allowing the third runway to be considered. We ended up with hopeless proposals like the high speed rail link between Heathrow and Gatwick.
 

PR1Berske

Established Member
Joined
27 Jul 2010
Messages
3,025
By way of some kind of comparison:

Margaret Thatcher (1979)

1] Mark Carlisle (May 1979 - Sept 1981) [SoS for Education and Science]
2] Keith Joseph (Sept 81 - May 86) [SoS]
3] Kenneth Baker (May 86 - July 89) [SoS]
4] John MacGregor (July 89 - Nov 90) [SoS]

John Major (1990)

1] Kenneth Clarke (Nov 90 - Apr 92) [SoS]
2] John Patten (Apr 92 - July 94) [SoS for Education]
3] Gillian Shephard (Jul 94 - Jul 95) [SoS] (SoS for Education and Employment from July 95 - May 1996)

Tony Blair (1997)

1] David Blunkett (May 97 - June 2001) (SoS for Education and Employment)
2] Estelle Morris (June 01 - Oct 2002) (SoS for Education and Skills)
3] Charles Clarke (Oct 02 - Dec 04) (SoS)
4] Ruth Kelly (Dec 04 - May 06) (SoS)
5] Alan Johnson (May 06 - June 07) (SoS)

Gordon Brown (2007)

1[ Ed Balls (June 07 - May 10) [SoS for Children, Schools and Families]
2] John Denham (June 07 - June 09) [SoS for Innovation, Universities and Skills]
3] Lord (Peter) Mandelson (June 09 - May 2010) [SoS for Business, Innovation and Skills (with responsibility for University Education)]

David Cameron (2010)

1] Michael Gove (from May 2010) (SoS for Education)
2] Vince Cable (from May 2010) (SoS for Business, Innovation and Skills (with responsibility for University education)]
 

SouthernHRH

Member
Joined
16 Mar 2012
Messages
11

Okay, So I have compiled passenger data of scheduled flights from all UK airports that have scheduled flights to Heathrow and compared them to Amsterdam for the last 10 years (2002-2011). I have also included Dubai, with data from all UK destinations.
attachment.php

Top Left Graph 1, Top Right Graph 2, Bottom Left Graph 3, Bottom Right Graph 4 - Own Work

Right, so what do these graphs show us. In graph 1, we can see a clear trend, a decrease in the number of passengers flying domestic routes. However, looking at the most drastic losses, Manchester and Edinburgh once the passenger numbers begin to fall to Heathrow, they begin to rise to Amsterdam. This link cannot be proved with these graphs alone, however it is well known that Amsterdam and other airports such as Frankfurt, Munich, Istanbul, Madrid, Paris and Zurich all take business away from Heathrow, http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ecret-plot-to-build-third-runway-7584591.html .

Now unlike Heathrow's data, which shows mainly trends of decreasing passenger numbers, the airports that serve both Amsterdam and Heathrow show for stable passenger numbers. All these airports for the period of 2010/2011 showed growth in passenger numbers. This suggests more people are flying to Amsterdam and that the numbers will increase in the future. Is this a case of many people wishing to visit the city itself or are people transferring through Schipol to onward destinations. No doubt a large number of tourists visit Amsterdam each year, but many people flying from UK to AMS are for connecting flights.

Graph 4 shows the passenger data of people flying to Dubai from all UK destinations served. This no doubt proves that people are flying through other airports in large numbers and connecting to onward destinations. All the routes are showing signs of growth and as Emirates, the airline of UAE, presses ahead on a very vigorous expansion plan, you can expect to see many thousands more flying through Dubai each year.

Heathrow_Passenger_Statistic_Graph.jpg

Graph 5, Wikipedia.org

air travel demand is falling
This is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever seen. This is not true at all. Demand is constantly increasing, and graph 5 demonstrates this. The number of passengers flown from Heathrow has been continuously increasing and it is only the past few years it has begun to slow down. Mainly due to the economic conditions we are in, but the amount of capacity available is now null. And so for the time being, Heathrow is at its peak. I agree, yes, unless a third runway is approved, then demand for flights from Heathrow will begin to decrease, as more people will begin to transfer through the hub airports around the world as mentioned. How will this be achieved. Numerous daily flights from airports around the UK to those hub airports. What will this do, move jobs and wealth to other countries.

That is what this all boils down to. As stated by HH, airports lead to masses of amounts of direct and indirect employment. If you have 100,000 people wanting to travel from Manchester to Xiamen each year for example (an airport not served directly from Heathrow). At present the only option is to fly to Amsterdam and then onwards to Xiamen. When booking, more likely than not using a site like Expedia or Skyscanner, people will select there flights. Now more often than not in this case, the airline would be KLM for both legs. So for those 100,000 people each year, paying say on average £500 for a one way flight, £50million is leaving the British economy and going into the Dutch. This also then creates jobs in Amsterdam and further strengthening their economy.

Now, if there was more slots at Heathrow, routes to Xiamen direct would then become available. In this instance, British Airways start the route. And so those 100,000 people who would previously of flown via AMS now can fly via LHR. Granted, may will still choose to fly via AMS, but the vast majority would route through Heathrow on BA. This then keeps that money being spent on air fares in the British economy as it is being paid to a British company. It also creates British jobs as BA will need pilots, crew, ground crew and more jobs at the airport in security, duty free, bars and so on are created. Not only does this have direct job creation, it also creates jobs during the construction phase and can lead to new business being made with the Xiamen region and London meaning more jobs. More jobs, more money.

map

Map, Gcmap.com

Code:
			Train			Plane				
Method	via	Leave	Dep	Arr	Checkin	Dep	Arr	Price	Journey Time	Distance
Air	via LHR	16:53		-	17:05	19:25	15:20+1	£951	16:07	9831km
	via AMS	11:23		-	11:35	13:35	09:35+1	£803	16:12	9705km
	via DXB	18:48		-	19:00	21:00	18:10+1	£486	17:22	10571km
Train	via LHR	16:00	16:15	19:31	20:05	22:05	15:20+1	£932	17:30	9831km

This final part shows the journey from Barlow Moor in Manchester to Bangkok in two weeks time, via Air through LHR, AMS and DXB and also rail via LHR.

A third runway would allow for British Airways to reduce fares on existing flights as more capacity is available and more capacity leads to more competition. As such, the flight from Heathrow I believe could be around 600 if a third runway existed.

As great as rail is, I cannot see it leading to the end of domestic air travel. Journey times and hassle just make it an unattractive option. As shown above, MAN-LHR-BKK takes an hour and a half longer if doing the MAN-LHR leg on train. That also means a change of train is required twice, all to save around £20. It is far more hassle dragging your baggage on and off of trains down the length of the country and checking in at Heathrow, which can be hell on earth at times, when you could simple check them in at Manchester, a great amount less stressful and then not have to worry about your bags again until you arrive in Bangkok.

Unlike many on here, I have an aviation background and have been involved with the industry for little over 10 years now, as such my views may seem a little biased. But there is no other option than to build a third runway at Heathrow.
 

Attachments

  • graphs.jpg
    graphs.jpg
    377.4 KB · Views: 96
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top