First win Intercity West Coast franchise

[jon0844]

now that fewer people get First Class paid for them by companies etc - whilst some things in this recession will bounce back, I don't expect to see firms happily going back to paying higher fares again).

Most things in life go around in circles. I've actually been hearing some companies arguing that sending staff places in economy (yes, this was about flying, not train travel but I think still comparable for Intercity journeys) is a false economy if they can't work while travelling or turn up tired and don't perform well, like sealing a deal etc.

So, who knows, we might see firms opting to use first class more in the future and then, later on, changing their mind again.

 

[90019]

Running WCML services to Stirling (stopping at Motherwell, Cumbernauld and Larbert*) is also A Good Thing - at the moment people from much of the central belt would go to Edinburgh for services further south, so a Stirling extension of some WCML services would tap into that.

I'm not sure where they'd put any terminating trains in Stirling.

Presumably they'd have to put them in either platform 9 or 10, since 2 and 3 are used by everything except the Alloa trains, which use 6.
If they use 9 or 10, I'd assume they'd build a new section of roof, cover the section of the footbridge over to them and install a lift, as those two seem to be rather ignored compared to the rest of the station.
They could use 6, but only when there's no Alloa train due, unless they push those onto 9.

 

[tbtc]

Most things in life go around in circles. I've actually been hearing some companies arguing that sending staff places in economy (yes, this was about flying, not train travel but I think still comparable for Intercity journeys) is a false economy if they can't work while travelling or turn up tired and don't perform well, like sealing a deal etc.

So, who knows, we might see firms opting to use first class more in the future and then, later on, changing their mind again.

This may happen, but I think that some companies are using the recession as an excuse to make long terms cuts (even if the economy bounces back). For example, I doubt that any of those Final Salary pension schemes closed "due to the current economic climate" will re-open.

 

[junglejames]

Will Club Class be modified/upgraded Standard Class or First Class Carriages?

First will be totally refurbishing the trains. So if its to be believed, nothing will be like it is now.
As for Nyms suggestion. Could you even fit 5 seats across a pendy? Nyms suggestion, i would say, is the furthest from reality.
Anyway, when First say more seats/ capacity, they are mainly on about more trains.

 

[MKB]

The 10.4% growth is made up as below;

RPI.................................................................................3.1%
Yield management / revenue protection / enhanced products.....1.5%
Volume............................................................................5.8%
Passenger revenue CAGR...................................................10.4%

from the First Group presentation posted about 800 posts ago so not so easy to find now.

So First are expecting to increase passenger numbers to 70 odd million or 2.3 times current levels by 15 years time.

Thanks for that - very useful. So the headline figure of 10.4% relates to revenue and it's not alll "growth" as you have to factor out RPI. Dividing 1.104 by 1.031, we can see that the promise is of 6.8% revenue growth in real terms which doesn't seem quite so off-the-scale.

I'm intrigued however by the 1.5 annual growth due to yield management, revenue protection and enhanced products. That's a 21% growth over 13 years. Presumably First would expect to get the full benefit of that early on in the franchise?

The 5.8% year-on-year volume growth does seem to be nearer the realms of plausibility than 10.4%, but it's still very ambitious. When LM's new faster Trent Valley to Euston services start, it will be interesting to see how any latent demand from/via Nuneaton, for example, splits between First and LM.

As a motorist, I think the congestion and parking charges in central London are already such that anyone who still chooses their car for visiting the capital is unlikely to be shifted however favourable the train. Where there's still a battle to be won is on non-London journeys that would use the WCML, (e.g. Leicester-Liverpool, Tamworth-Preston, Northampton-Crewe). For those examples, I think many drivers will look at the current timetable and think the door-to-door time via train just does not come close to competing with the car. The loss of connectivity at the key junctions along the WCML for the VHF project was the price paid for the fast end-to-end journeys to London.

Personally I think passengers would tolerate an extra 10 minutes on these journey times if it improved connectivity elsewhere (and some of the turnaround times could easily accommodate that). What people don't want is a return to the 3-hour and 4-hour journey times that we saw regularly pre-VHF on 200-mile trips.
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Another fan here of the FGW HST seats. They promote good posture.

It may seem comfortable to slump in an IC70, but it's doing your back no good at all.

Are you sure about that? There was a study I read that debunked the idea that sitting bolt upright was good and actually decided that slouching was best for your back. I remember feeling vindicated as I slouch at work because it's the position I find most comfortable and avoids back ache, for me at least.

Ryanair seats are bolt upright and I had back ache for 24 hours after I came off a two-hour flight with them.

 

[junglejames]

I actually like the FGW seating, the people who are moaning about the seating tend to be the same ones who moan there is not enough tables, who also happen to moan about overcrowding. There is an irony in there somewhere.

Nope. I wish there was more overcrowding. Because that may mean the seats hadnt changed.
Just ask the main man what he thinks of the refurbed Mk3s. He thinks just like me. He doesnt like them.

 

[glenbogle]

Back seats in Coach A are great going west, plenty of legroom if you can get them. Mad rush when train gets announced!!!

 

[jon0844]

This may happen, but I think that some companies are using the recession as an excuse to make long terms cuts (even if the economy bounces back). For example, I doubt that any of those Final Salary pension schemes closed "due to the current economic climate" will re-open.

Very true, but now we have lots of new businesses (who knows if they'll last, as many tech startups have huge perceived values but are almost worthless) so there might be enough business.

I totally agree about pensions and other benefits people will never see again.

 

[junglejames]

Speaking of Coach D on voyagers, that coach is exactly what the voyagers should've been like in standard all along. The seats are wider and more comfortable, yet don't seem to take up much more space. Hopefully that is exactly what First have planned for their Voyagers/Pendos refit.

I hope not. I found them nearly as bad.
Slightly more padding, but far too much lumbar support. I couldnt sit still because my back was aching too much with the seat digging into it.
The minimum comfort level in standard should be like First class is now. Perhaps slightly narrower. Even that wouldnt be brilliant though. Most trains have more comfortable standard class than pendys have in first.

 

[RPI]

When the numbers are broken down it doesn't look as hefty, I reckon they will pull this off. has anyone been on the VT facebook page? there are some rather sour grapes being picked!

 

[Mr Spock]

Considering we do the platforming at a lot of major stations, that is nonsense. TOCs can request to use certain platforms and where we can we will do that. Sometimes what appears to be a TOCs platform is purely operationally based as it works better that way, it isnt "theirs".Virgin were one of the worst for it as they would kick up a right stink if they couldn't get next to their first class lounges.

I thought that there are only 4 lounges actually on platforms, Coventry, Stoke, Runcorn and Wolverhampton (although Liverpool might count as well).

Of these Stoke and Runcorn are on the Up platform and are no problem, Wolverhampton is just in the wrong place which leaves just Coventry that could be a problem if trains are routed in platform 2 rather than 1, very rare these days, so not sure where Virgin are kicking up a stink.

 

[calc7]

Very true, but now we have lots of new businesses (who knows if they'll last, as many tech startups have huge perceived values but are almost worthless) so there might be enough business.

I totally agree about pensions and other benefits people will never see again.

100% agree with you on both points here. Final Salary pensions are unlikely to see the light of day ever again (such a shame for me at the start of my career!)

But for new firms, eg. consultancies based around service, it almost seems insulting to staff with a £800+ charge-out day rate that the firm will not pay an extra £50 or so in order that they can travel in a comfortable environment and be productive that time. There is no way you can do an hour an a half of decent work in Standard on a morning/evening Pendolino to/from Manchester.

 

[MKB]

I found them [Voyager Coach D seats] nearly as bad.
Slightly more padding, but far too much lumbar support. I couldnt sit still because my back was aching too much with the seat digging into it.

You're absolutely right. You've just reminded me of the one time I took one of these seats. They are awful. The standard-class Coach A-C seats, while poor, are preferable to Coach D in my opinion. And the idea that anyone with a first-class fare should have to sit in a Coach D seat beggars belief.

One aspect of seat comfort that Virgin have got spectacularly wrong across all seats in all classes is the arm rest. Not only is it solid -- no padding to speak of -- but it's actually convex, i.e. arched upwards. It's completely impractical. If cinemas and theatres (by and large) can provide a very comfortable seat, why can't trains?
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But for new firms, eg. consultancies based around service, it almost seems insulting to staff with a £800+ charge-out day rate that the firm will not pay an extra £50 or so in order that they can travel in a comfortable environment and be productive that time. There is no way you can do an hour an a half of decent work in Standard on a morning/evening Pendolino to/from Manchester.

We're charged out at over £1000 a day and we're barred from first-class on trains unless the journey is over 4 hours each way. I think such rules are pretty normal nowadays.

 

[Mojo]

When the numbers are broken down it doesn't look as hefty, I reckon they will pull this off. has anyone been on the VT facebook page? there are some rather sour grapes being picked!

Completely agree. Some of the comments being made (not by Virgin but by users) are absolutely ridiculous, with accusations of bribery, lying and other things, many of which border on defamation. It isn't helped by Virgin's slick PR which seems to portray them as the best railway company ever, and people incorrectly comparing First class long-distance trains with at seat dining, and their regional and commuter operations elsewhere, such as FCC.

I do not hate Virgin, but they are distinctly ordinary, much like First. I find their trains best avoided due to the unpleasant interiors (Passenger Focus, "Designing the Future," 2009 rated Pendolinos the worst long-distance train), and their long distance fares a little steep, even for Advances on a Friday, something which is reflected in the crowding for which extra services have had to be put on.

In my opinion to say First will decimate the service is an insult to the hard-working staff of other First Tocs, but also the management of their rail division, which are highly capable and have proven themselves as both former MDs of London Underground (O'Toole and Parry) seemingly key players in this new franchise.

 

[bnm]

Are you sure about that? There was a study I read that debunked the idea that sitting bolt upright was good and actually decided that slouching was best for your back. I remember feeling vindicated as I slouch at work because it's the position I find most comfortable and avoids back ache, for me at least.

Ryanair seats are bolt upright and I had back ache for 24 hours after I came off a two-hour flight with them.

I didn't say anything about sitting bolt upright. I know that's not recommended. I said the FGW HST seats promote good posture. That is lumbar support and a seat base height that is best for the most people possible, allowing feet to be placed flat on the floor. There's also the upholstery- not too soft (IC70), not too hard (Voyager/Pendolino).

Of course, shorties and lankies may not be ideally catered for, but FGW with their Grammer seats have found a happy median I think.

Slouching is also not recommended, but that seems to be the promoted posture for the IC70 seats. Seat base is too low and there is little lumbar support and too much springy padding.

 

[WestCoast]

I can't stand IC70s, I find them terribly uncomfortable. Second only to Merseytravel Pacer seating in the discomfort stakes for me (did a two hour stint on them today and my back is sore!).

Seating is entirely subjective though - what some like, others dislike. I've heard a lot of rave reviews about the seating on Adelates and 175s, whereas I think they are just OK.

 

[tbtc]

has anyone been on the VT facebook page? there are some rather sour grapes being picked!

No, but one of my friends on Twitter was retweeting something from a Virgin employee praising the "professionalism" of all the Virgin staff for continuing to work for the last few months of their franchise (as if they were the first TOC not to "retain" a franchise and deserved special praise for, erm, continuing to do the job they are paid for). Its like Virgin are a cult, the way that they seem to live in a different world to the rest of us (even unlike any other TOC). You just can't argue with people who are that single minded.

We're charged out at over £1000 a day and we're barred from first-class on trains unless the journey is over 4 hours each way. I think such rules are pretty normal nowadays.

Sadly all too common. I can't see First Class being re-introduced at many companies (for "normal" employees, i.e. the lowest 95%!). Its going to be harder and harder to justify a full priced First Class ticket in future.
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Seating is entirely subjective

Yes, which is why I try to avoid these discussions - we might as well argue about whether red trains are better than blue trains

 

[calc7]

For what it's worth, my favourite seats are the First Class ones on EC. In reclined mode - bliss.

Last time I did Paddington to Westbury on a FGW HST in Standard I was in agony.

 

[jon0844]

...we might as well argue about whether red trains are better than blue trains

We are aren't we? Well silver/red and blue anyway.

 

[bnm]

we might as well argue about whether red trains are better than blue trains

Which is essentially what you, I and the rest are doing contributing to threads about Virgin losing West Coast to First.

 

[junglejames]

One aspect of seat comfort that Virgin have got spectacularly wrong across all seats in all classes is the arm rest. Not only is it solid -- no padding to speak of -- but it's actually convex, i.e. arched upwards. It's completely impractical. If cinemas and theatres (by and large) can provide a very comfortable seat, why can't trains?

Thats one thing i hate about the seats. Armrest are too narrow, and of stupid curved design.
People complain about fixed armrests on IC70 seats, but i would rather these than something which is too narrow.

 

[Class 33]

Hope First aren't going to change the carriage lighting in the Pendolino's too ,and replace it with the horrendous ultra bright white lighting they have on their HST's. I had read here that one of the (few!) good things about Pendolino's is the carriage lighting is pretty good, just right, and not ultra bright like other modern trains. I haven't actually ever been on a Pendolino in the dark to ever see for myself what it's like. Be a shame if they got rid of the pleasant lighting!

 

[F Great Eastern]

Nope. I wish there was more overcrowding. Because that may mean the seats hadnt changed.
Just ask the main man what he thinks of the refurbed Mk3s. He thinks just like me. He doesnt like them.

Yes, but bear in mind that you may not even be able to find a seat when you take a few dozen seats out of the train so you'd not get the benefit from the seats you seem to think are better because there will not be any free.

The fact is that the extra seats in the train from the new style seats mean that less people have to stand, or are you really telling me you prefer to stand than sit in the new seats, or is it the case of you'd love to have the old style train, as long as you are not one of the ones who have to stand as a result?

I'm sure if you ask an average commuter would they like to stand or have a FGW HST seat they'd choose the later.

 

[junglejames]

Hope First aren't going to change the carriage lighting in the Pendolino's too ,and replace it with the horrendous ultra bright white lighting they have on their HST's. I had read here that one of the (few!) good things about Pendolino's is the carriage lighting is pretty good, just right, and not ultra bright like other modern trains. I haven't actually ever been on a Pendolino in the dark to ever see for myself what it's like. Be a shame if they got rid of the pleasant lighting!

Its actually too dull. Combined with the dull coloured bulkheads and roof, and the small dark windows, it gives the interiors a very very dull claustrophobic interior. The lights need to be brighter.

 

[YorkshireBear]

For what it's worth, my favourite seats are the First Class ones on EC. In reclined mode - bliss.

Last time I did Paddington to Westbury on a FGW HST in Standard I was in agony.

First world problems :P some of us have never been lucky enough to travel first class :P

 

[jon0844]

Hope First aren't going to change the carriage lighting in the Pendolino's too ,and replace it with the horrendous ultra bright white lighting they have on their HST's. I had read here that one of the (few!) good things about Pendolino's is the carriage lighting is pretty good, just right, and not ultra bright like other modern trains. I haven't actually ever been on a Pendolino in the dark to ever see for myself what it's like. Be a shame if they got rid of the pleasant lighting!

They can now adjust the lighting to have at least every other light off, possibly more. Surely despite being a cool white, they're not actually any brighter than before? Cool white can seem brighter and more clinical, but I am sure it's just perception.

Wagn fitted cool white lights to the 317/1s which I thought improved things but not long after they were gradually replaced with warm white. It yellows the interior which I feel makes the train feel old (like stained by smokers) but that's just my opinion.

 

[Skimble19]

Must agree with you about the yellowy lights on the 317s.. It looks like they've had a load of chain smokers living in there for the last 30 years!

As for the suggestion of 2+3 seating on Pendolinos.. I do hope youre not being serious?! You'll suggest they'll use 317s next!

 

[krisk]

Imagine, no tables in standard, if you want a table or plug socket pay the club class upgrade and in first class you no longer get a bay of table seats to yourself.

 

[Derry]

Can't believe folk are arguing about table chairs and colours of trains,people jobs could be at risk,I don't work for Virgin but I know loads who do and enjoy it,ones I know work for First hate it.

 

[PR1Berske]

Can't believe folk are arguing about table chairs and colours of trains,people jobs could be at risk,I don't work for Virgin but I know loads who do and enjoy it,ones I know work for First hate it.

This is a rail enthusiasts forum, with a bias towards Class in the sense of rolling stock rather than working stock () so it's not surprising that this thread has drifted towards chairs, tables, colour schemes and the like.

It's a very long thread, though, so you might find something early on that deals with job prospects.