First win Intercity West Coast franchise

[All Line Rover]

I wouldn't be surprised if Coach D on the Super Voyagers became "Club Class."

 

[hughesfowler]

Imagine he's crossing wires with the £211.50 Manchester (and other stations in that cluster) to Euston FOS.

I think this has been discussed before and is slightly off topic but if you get on a train without your railcard , tough, your railcard you make sure you have it with you, end of period. Totally agree there should be no discretion. Same with advanced tickets, if its your fault you did not make the train then you have to pay. same as the airlines, no reason to be different.

Anyway back on track so to speak, old Beardy one has really thrown his toys out the pram this time. How to alienate people in one easy lesson

 

[sprinterguy]

I wouldn't be surprised if Coach D on the Super Voyagers became "Club Class."

That would seem most likely. I wonder then, if coach G on the Pendos is to be stripped of it's first class seating, whether that would be likely to be the one becoming "Club Class"?

Interesting to see that First are looking to bring back the three-class model of service that Virgin dropped so hastily, and that hasn't been taken up by any other Intercity TOCs...

 

[WatcherZero]

If anyones wondering 2011/12 TOC figures were published by ORR this week, heres a couple that may or may not be relevant.

Virgin has 3,104 employees, a 191 increase over the previous year and operates 17 stations. It had 1.1m more journeys totalling 30.2m with no increase in operated mileage. First TPE is one of only two tocs that saw a fall in passengers (200k) and the only one that saw a fall in passenger km (6m), it had 1030 staff up 11 and operates 30 stations. FGW had 4,874 employees up 443 and it operate 210 stations down 1. Passengers up five million to 95.6m, but a fall of 200k in operated km, and 100km in routes operated.
On the 26th August the years subsidy figures are published.

 

[tbtc]

Interesting to see that First are looking to bring back the three-class model of service that Virgin dropped so hastily, and that hasn't been taken up by any other Intercity TOCs...

True - I wonder whether the recession (which has seen many companies cutting back on First Class travel, even MPs don't get it any more AFAICR) will mean it becomes harder and harder to attract First Class passengers.

For example, if I can get a seat reservation for free in standard class, get a plug in standard class... then the £20/£50 marginal cost of First Class buys me a marginally bigger seat and a "complimentary" snack. If my company aren't paying for it then I'm a lot less likely to justify the (additional) cost for myself.

So maybe there's going to be a gap in the market now for a "half way house" that there wasn't a few years ago?

 

[All Line Rover]

The way Virgin/Branson have reacted to this I'm rather glad that they are losing the franchise. What other train company encourages customers to sign an e-petitioin asking the government to allow them to retain the franchise, that says, in part, "The West Coast Mainline's current value is thanks to millions of pounds of investment and commitment from Virgin Trains"!?

It's a farce. There will be the same staff, the same number of staff, the same rolling stock, additional services, a new intermediate class of travel, an apparently even better First Class and improved capacity management which should lead to even cheaper fares for customers who are able to travel on the quietest services. Sadly the majority of the public believe the hype that First are going to run the franchise into the ground. The suggestion that First West Coast will turn out like NXEA is unlikely - First's business model centres around large and consistent growth, which they aren't going to achieve by offering atrocious customer service.

I'm not leaning towards any opinion about how well First are able to run the WCML franchise until at least a few months after they start operating it.

 

[Nym]

Translated: We realised that a lot of workers and companies are resistant to putting first class travel on their expense claims so we are introducing Club Class so they can pay more without the embarassing accounting trail.

Is no-one else seeing two and two together here...

- First is looking to replace seating
- First is introducing a new club class
- First needs to increase seating capacity...

Anyone else think that we will have:

Standard 3+2 Seating with no tables
Club (As standard is now, few freebies)
First (As first is now, possibly better to justify the money)

 

[All Line Rover]

Anyone else think that we will have:

Standard 3+2 Seating with no tables
Club (As standard is now, few freebies)
First (As first is now, possibly better to justify the money)

No. It wouldn't work on Pendolinos. (And passengers from Liverpool / Runcorn / Crewe / Stoke / Stafford / Wolverhampton / Birmingham / Coventry / Lichfield / Tamworth / Nuneaton / Rugby / Milton Keynes would just travel with London Midland or Chiltern).

 

[Whistler40145]

Will Club Class be modified/upgraded Standard Class or First Class Carriages?

 

[Woody]

Rejected Virgin Rail bid for West Coast franchise officially more "deliverable"
Virgin Rail’s losing bid for the West Coast train franchise is understood to have been officially rated by the Department for Transport as a more “deliverable” offer than FirstGroup’s.


Industry sources said Sir Richard Branson’s Virgin Rail was rated top for “deliverability”. According to January’s Invitation to Tender document, that covers such things as “timetabling” for forecast demand and improvements to service quality.

On timetabling for demand, Virgin is thought to have easily beaten FirstGroup – even though the winning bidder forecast much higher revenue and volume growth to March 2026. FirstGroup is targeting 10.4pc annual revenue growth versus Virgin’s 8.5pc.

Controversially, FirstGroup is understood to have earned a higher rating for customer service despite the company being repeatedly outscored by Virgin in passenger satisfaction surveys. FirstGroup is also thought to have beaten Virgin on fleet delivery – even though, unlike Virgin, it is yet to finalise train contracts.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...st-franchise-officially-more-deliverable.html

Smells a bit to me.

 

[ainsworth74]

Will Club Class be modified/upgraded Standard Class or First Class Carriages?

I don't think anyone outside of First knows.

 

[jon0844]

On a Birmingham to Euston pendolino yesterday (Saturday), the Train Manager said they'd been told, because of the loss of the franchise, to make sure they dinged all passengers who've forgotten their railcard for the full fare of £212.

I have no idea where £212 comes from -- a Standard Anytime Single is £79.00 -- but the message seemed to be that any discretion that was exercised in the past was no longer to be shown.

If true, that's an incredibly spiteful thing to say from a company claiming to be a passenger champion!

 

[Solent&Wessex]

...First TPE is one of only two tocs that saw a fall in passengers (200k) and the only one that saw a fall in passenger km (6m), it had 1030 staff up 11 and operates 30 stations. ...

Perhaps this is related to the fact that the services on many routes have been so successful that they are, at leisure travel times, so horrendously overcrowded and regularly leave people behind on Friday and Sunday afternoons that people are voting with their feet and going elsewhere. First Class is regularly declassified due to the overcrowding, thus not encouraging people to purchase the higher value fare and on board facilities such as catering and toilets cannot cope with the volume of patronage. A victim of its own success perhaps? More capacity is needed as a matter of urgency on many of these routes - something that 10 x 4 car 350's will not really solve.

 

[gordonthemoron]

it would be nice if there were later trains from London to Manchester/Liverpool

 

[Nym]

No. It wouldn't work on Pendolinos. (And passengers from Liverpool / Runcorn / Crewe / Stoke / Stafford / Wolverhampton / Birmingham / Coventry / Lichfield / Tamworth / Nuneaton / Rugby / Milton Keynes would just travel with London Midland or Chiltern).

We all know that here, but if First Group want more seating, how would they manage it?

I just have the horrible feeling that within a 3 class system we're about to see 3+2 seating on LDHS services...

Either that or Club Class will be no different to Standard Class other than freebies, and look even more embarassing on expenses claims, hence be a commercial flop, the only 3rd class tier business model I can see that currently works in Chiltern's Business Zone, as it's a supliment to a standard ticket, therefore doesn't need to be submitted with expenses...

 

[IanXC]

Would it be even possible to have separate tickets for such a 'Club Class'; could the ticket retailing and revenue distribution systems cope with it? Or would First have to do it by way of a supplement?

 

[broadgage]

My natural cynicism leads me to expect that the new club class will be similar to the present standard class, though at a higher price.
The new standard class I expect to be in effect third class with 2+3 seating and no tables.

First class=1+2 seating, all or virtually all at tables.

Club class (second class in effect) 2+2 seating, some at tables.

Standard class (third class in effect) high density 2+3 bus seats. No tables.

Other TOCs have shown the way, with 2+3 seating replacing 2+2 on routes formerly considered to be long distance or inter city.

 

[jon0844]

Could 3+2 ever fit inside the narrower profile? I don't think it would be possible at all.

 

[IanXC]

Other TOCs have shown the way, with 2+3 seating replacing 2+2 on routes formerly considered to be long distance or inter city.

Hasn't that been more by accident than an actual strategy?

Would 2+3 seating even physically fit inside a Pendo's dimensions?

 

[All Line Rover]

Would 2+3 seating even physically fit inside a Pendo's dimensions?

That's what I'm saying. Pendolinos are claustrophobic enough with the tilt profile. There's no way you could fit even more seats in. They'd block the compartment doors!

In any case, in the near impossible scenario that First introduce 3+2 seating on the WCML, I would stop travelling with them, as would many other passengers. Their passenger numbers would fall off a cliff! I don't think First are that stupid.

 

[Nym]

I don't think First are that stupid.

This is one thing where I'm afraid I must disagree, I do think first are that stupid, you should see how they recruit their Engineers, if you have any actual real engineering skill or behave like one (asking for clarification before proceeding) you've got no chance of getting the job, even worse if you're not a protentious prick that has no ambition other than becoming a manager...

To give some background to this, I was being interviewed by people on their APEDS scheme to become a chartered engineer, this is an accredited pathway layed out by British Rail in accordance with UKEC and IET/IMechE guidelines, and should take four years for a MEng candidate and five for a BEng candidate, the interviewers had been with the company for 9 years and had not fufilled UKSPEC (UKEC Specification for a Professional Engineer) because all they did was managment.

Because First Group's managment favours wet behind the ears no skill other than pure accademia and/or psudo managment skills (all this new age modern kak that is really irritating and doesn't have any foundation in real managment) I really can see the whole managment team not realising about the body profile of Class 390 and 221 stock and proceeding to order 3+2 seating for standard regardless, or in some other way reduce, significantly, the current quality of Standard Class so it would only be used by the subclasses of society that are highly price sensitive (Students, Young Families, Unemployed, SDNW etc.) and the 'club class' that I can see being similar to current standard class with a free diet coke would be a required upgrade for any passenger who is not price sensitive, resulting in an artifically inflated standard class, now club class and packing them in in 3rd class.

 

[Manchester77]

In my opinion there three class will work by:-
First Class - All 1+2 seats with tables
Club Class - Present Standard 2+2
Standard Class - reduced luggage space, no tables, reduced leg room 2+2 seats

I'd imagine first will make standard class like airplanes with very little legroom for more seats.

 

[rail-britain]

More information about First's offering. They will be introducing a "club class" with better seating and free drinks

Sounds very similar to the previous InterCity Silver Executive
Which was basically, Full price Standard fares with offerings from the restaurant car included; very popular on Monday and Friday, but almost empty every other weekday

Note in the same article the mention of a financial deficit from the forecasts in the fourth year (rather than the profit First Group suggests)

 

[RPI]

If they put 3+2 seats in Pendolinos I will eat my laptop. I expect there will probably be less tables in standard but thats about it, my guess is that the enhanced standard class/club class will be 2+2 seats all around tables with table lamps and free refreshments, my humble opinion/guess is that it will probably be designated as "first class" officially but be dealt with by way of paying a supplement.

 

[gordonthemoron]

even Ryanair has more legroom than some Voyager seats which seem to have been designed for children or amputees (I'm only 5'10" and can't sit in them)

 

[ukrob]

Can't believe people are suggesting 2+3. What a load of nonsense, driven by anti First Group lines of thinking.

I suspect Club Class will just be a first class coach with no at seat service. Unbookable, but you can upgrade to it by paying the Train Manager once on board.

 

[Nym]

Sorry, but the only good experience I've had of first group is where Keolis own 45% of it... (Even then it was after midnight when commuting had finished)

I honestly can see either 3+2 is severely restricted seat pitch airline only 2+2 coming into Standard, and club class being pretty much the same as standard is now, but with a free drink. Yes, A free soft drink, that will cost them all of 0.6p if it comes off a postmix, so you could have unimited free soft drinks and still have change out of a £1 budget...

 

[ainsworth74]

My personal guess is that standard class seating will remain very much as it is now as will first class and instead club class seating will be the same as what's found in coach D on Voyagers, namely 2+2 but entirely around tables and with perhaps a bit more legroom and a slightly comfier seat. I imagine the easiest way to deal with the revenue side of things will be be to make it a supplement bought on board and administered in much the same way that weekend first is.

As with another poster above I'll eat my laptop of they introduce 3+2 in standard I just can't see it happening.

 

[the sniper]

Beyond Nym saying so, who's grievances with First are only to clear to see, no one has suggested 3+2 seating as it's ludicrous. First have no form in fitting this layout to any of its other Intercity stock and the industry seems to be moving away from providing 3+2 seating even in new commuter units. So yeah, I'll believe when I see it...

 

[Rich McLean]

Standard class - As its now 2+2, but with new seats, and about 4 tables per coach.

Club Class - 2+2 Seating, increased luggage space, Tables at every seat, complementary soft drinks and tea.

First Class - 2+1 Seating, tables at every seat, complementary food, drinks, news paper etc etc (meals at breakfast and late afternoons)

That seems a lot more realistic