Direct Rail Services Ltd Passenger Trains Test Runs (28th- 30th December 2011)

[Blindtraveler]

my visit last September (not a busy tourist time) to the R and ER saw the Carlisle bound unit on my return so busy even before selafield that I was glad Id made other plans. I farly wanted to stay overnight in the area but buses and trains are so bad it wasnt an option.

 

[junglejames]

Except, apparently, for the next 12 weeks.

No, not even for 12 weeks. If trains are full and standing, then you need the extra. It may not be running, but you need it.

If SWT pulled half of their peak trains for a week, and the rest were literally rammed, with others going by car, would you say they were able to do without the other half for that week? I dont think many would agree.

As always, this is me assuming a few things just to make my points. But just because something doesnt run, doesnt mean you can do without it.
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"Admittedly i dont know what the services or roads are like"

Both are pretty diabolical. Not uncommon for local train services to be single unit and on certain sections of the route full to bursting.
The local road - there is only one road to access Sellafield - the A595 - is nose to tail at shift change time.

Sellafield is the dominant employer in West Cumbria - by a huge margin. Local road congestion is closely correlated to employee travel to/from Sellafield. Look at the highways agency traffic conditions web page and (on the days their sensors are actually connected) you will see the A595 glowing with congestion at regular intervals.

The unique factor here is a dominant local employer who happens to have a "train set" to experiment with. However, the rest of the local public transport network is so rubbish (I visit the area very often - and tried my most recent visit without a car - it was a logistical nightmare - back to the rental car for future visits.) A worker special is great, but can't help suspecting that it needs much more than this to break the local car dependancy.

So its fair to say then that the service is needed. Perhaps not essential (very little in the world is really essential), but as far as that area goes, the service is needed.

 

[4SRKT]

As always, this is me assuming a few things just to make my points. But just because something doesnt run, doesnt mean you can do without it.


.

Except, crucially, that during the period that it is not running, people are by definition doing without it. I notice SWT don't do the thing you use to illustrate your example, presumably because those trains genuinely can't be done without.

 

[junglejames]

Except, crucially, that during the period that it is not running, people are by definition doing without it. I notice SWT don't do the thing you use to illustrate your example, presumably because those trains genuinely can't be done without.

OK SWT land is an extreme example, but its along the same lines.
By the sounds of it, the train cannot be done without, not if thinking sensibly anyway.

Look what happens if you get a few trains cancelled out of Kings Cross. Its bedlam. Now by definition, yes, they are doing without the trains, but can they really do without the trains? No, they cant.

Same thing here in Cumbria. They cant really do without the extra train.
In fact, they could probably do with increasing what it does.

 

[madannie77]

Except, crucially, that during the period that it is not running, people are by definition doing without it. I notice SWT don't do the thing you use to illustrate your example, presumably because those trains genuinely can't be done without.

You are missing the point that the train ran for 6 weeks as a trial, followed by a period of appraisal and consultation. It might not be essential yet, but it is part of a plan to reduce drastically the number of cars which are allowed onto the Sellafield site: when that plan kicks in it will be essential, as will many other enhancements to the local train service. As such, the trial period can be seen as part of a learning process.

 

[Poolie]

Would be great to see a trial passenger service on the branch to Hartlepool power station!!!

 

[4SRKT]

OK SWT land is an extreme example, but its along the same lines.
By the sounds of it, the train cannot be done without, not if thinking sensibly anyway.

Look what happens if you get a few trains cancelled out of Kings Cross. Its bedlam. Now by definition, yes, they are doing without the trains, but can they really do without the trains? No, they cant.

That is completely different. It would be an unplanned cancellation for that day only, not a planned one for 12 weeks. After 12 weeks the bedlam at the Cross would be considerably less.

 

[junglejames]

That is completely different. It would be an unplanned cancellation for that day only, not a planned one for 12 weeks. After 12 weeks the bedlam at the Cross would be considerably less.

Its not completely different. Its proving that whilst you do survive without the trains, you cant in all honesty do without them. Even after 12 weeks of having less trains at the Cross. Yes you have survived without them, but at what cost? You cant really do without them. Same in Cumbria but on a smaller scale.

 

[theblackwatch]

But whilst it would be bedlam at King's Cross, it isn't in Cumbria (unless I've missed the reports).

 

[4SRKT]

Its not completely different. Its proving that whilst you do survive without the trains, you cant in all honesty do without them. Even after 12 weeks of having less trains at the Cross. Yes you have survived without them, but at what cost? You cant really do without them. Same in Cumbria but on a smaller scale.

My point about being completely different is that nobody would plan a 12 week cancellation at the Cross. If a cancellation happened it would be a dire one day only situation that could not afford to happen again. Yet one is being executed in Cumbria. And as The Black Watch says there is no bedlam there.

 

[junglejames]

1- I know there is a 12 week stoppage, but i never said that was good. I know you could never afford a 12 week stoppage at the Cross. But I was only using it as an example. Just a one day stoppage is enough to prove what i was saying. You survive without the trains obviously, but could you really do without them? No. Im purely using it to get the difference across. A difference that applies in Cumbria
2- Kings Cross would obviously be on a much miuch larger scale. Ive used that on purpose to make the point, and from what others are saying, Cumbria does have problems, but on a smaller scale.

You are taking the size of Kings Cross as a major point. It isnt. Im just using one example to get across the difference. Yes you can always survive without a train, Kings Cross survives without trains, everywhere survives without trains from time to time. But can you really do without them? No. Just like Kings Cross cant, neither can Cumbria to a smaller extent. Its only to prove a difference, yet you are taking the size of Kings Cross too literally. Any other place could be used to prove it.

Lets use another example. The first off peak HS service from Ashford to London mid week. Used to be only 1 unit. Yes you survived with one unit. Another unit wasnt absolutely essential, but in reality, was it wise having only one unit? No it wasnt. So its now usually 2 units. Again the same in Cumbria. Yes you can survive without the extra train, but is it really wise to be without it? Well no, not really.

 

[Blindtraveler]

but I can report usual pre trial crouding on the unit and many pax saying how good the extra service was. Hope they told the boffins what crunch the numbers that!

 

[4SRKT]

You are taking the size of Kings Cross as a major point.

No I'm not. I'm taking the planned vs unplanned nature of the cancellations as the major point. There would never be a planned cancellation of services from the Cross even for one day except in an emergency, precisely because the services cannot be done without.
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but I can report usual pre trial crouding on the unit and many pax saying how good the extra service was. Hope they told the boffins what crunch the numbers that!

So do I; I want to see the service reintroduced. But if any public subsidy is required and I were involved in doling it out, one of the first things I would say is "well, about this 12 week suspension of a service you say is essential....". The consulation could end up being a tactical error.

 

[junglejames]

No I'm not. I'm taking the planned vs unplanned nature of the cancellations as the major point. There would never be a planned cancellation of services from the Cross even for one day except in an emergency, precisely because the services cannot be done without.
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So do I; I want to see the service reintroduced. But if any public subsidy is required and I were involved in doling it out, one of the first things I would say is "well, about this 12 week suspension of a service you say is essential....". The consulation could end up being a tactical error.

But for my point, it doesnt matter if its planned or not. When services are disrupted out of the Cross, they survive. Its manic, but of course they survive (by overcrowding the WCML). But you cant really do without the service. Its the same in Cumbria but on a smaller scale. Im purely looking at the difference between something you can survive without, and something you still need in reality.
You can survive without both. But in reality, you do need both. That is all ive ever been looking at, just to prove that even though you can survive without something, it could still be something you really should have.

The 12 week stoppage is stupid, and doesnt help. It should have kept running so not only did it reduce overcrowding, but it also attracted new passengers. This 12 week stoppage sends it back to the start now. Its still needed, but the benefits have been put back ages.

 

[142094]

Depends on how you look at demand - there is one way of thinking that, as there is no early morning service due to no demand for it, but on the other hand you could say there is no demand as there is no early morning service.

 

[Blindtraveler]

how well loaded workers wise was the morning run from CAR and how was demand along the route?

From a common sense POV, we know that northern or any other opperater have
NO
spare DMUs and the impending vehicle reduction at the site wil basicly mean that any non worker may as well walk as the 2 or 3 units going up at or near changeover time will be wedged!

 

[IslandDweller]

There's an article in the FT today (available online - but you may need to be an FT subscriber to read the entire article) which suggests that DRS intend to bid to operate all passenger trains on the Cumbrian Coast route.
Before people jump down my throat, the article is rather loosely written, and that's not quite the words they used. But that is certainly my interpretation of what is being suggested. However - my interpretation may be putting two and two together to make forty six... We shall see.

The proposal is described in the FT article as being "in early stages".
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I'm not sure about forum etiquette on posting links, which is why I did not give the FT link.
As at 1530 today (7 March) the article is on the FT home page, but no doubt it will drop off the home page by tomorrow.

 

[Noto450]

I'd say good luck to them as they do at least seem to be innovative.

 

[a1a.a1a]

There's an article in the FT today

Theres a small bit on railway eye about it... the wording on railway eye made me wonder if this was simply referring to the GlowEx train ... Spin, Fog and Government departments ....



http://railwayeye.blogspot.com/2012/03/dft-flounders-for-answers-to-reform.html

 

[Blindtraveler]

wonder if theyd take the units off northern or use more MK2s etc? Bring it on I say!

 

[junglejames]

Interesting. I say go for it. Good all round. More capacity for Northerns remaining services, and plenty of capacity for the Cumbrian Coast.

However I wonder if somebody has got their stories mixed up, and what it really is, is Northern and DRS discussing the possiblity of Northern hiring in loco and stock from DRS?

 

[Essexman]

When is there likely to be news as to whether this train will run again.
I'm planning a trip to Seascale and would like to use it if I can.

 

[Mysterium]

Don't believe there's any news on a resurrection of the service, however Railways Ilustrated are touting a RUMOUR that DRS are going to use 37's over the S&C in lieu of certain Northern services.
Now that would be good for passenger numbers!

 

[ryan125hst]

Apologies if this has already been mentioned, but I have just watched a video of the train and couldn't believe that they have installed window bars on the windows to prevent window hanging, while still allowing people to stick their hand out the window to open the door.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWkGf8n9Y4I&feature=related

Health and safety's gone mad!

What I can't understand is that there was no problem with doors without central locking and with opening windows for over 100 years, and yet in the last 10 years, almost all of the stock with them has gone and we are now left with powered door trains with no opening windows.

The question is, what has changed that means we are no longer capable of knowing when it is OK to open a door?

I was born in the 90's and I would be sensible enough to do this. I suppose it is just a way of preventing people suing the TOC's if they got injured.

Sorry to go slightly off topic.

 

[ainsworth74]

The question is, what has changed that means we are no longer capable of knowing when it is OK to open a door?

Nothing but it is far more sensible to use powered doors and removing droplights means that AC can be more efficient as well meaning that vestibule spaces are no longer drafty or cold.

 

[matt]

Apologies if this has already been mentioned, but I have just watched a video of the train and couldn't believe that they have installed window bars on the windows to prevent window hanging, while still allowing people to stick their hand out the window to open the door.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWkGf8n9Y4I&feature=related

Health and safety's gone mad!

What I can't understand is that there was no problem with doors without central locking and with opening windows for over 100 years, and yet in the last 10 years, almost all of the stock with them has gone and we are now left with powered door trains with no opening windows.

The question is, what has changed that means we are no longer capable of knowing when it is OK to open a door?

I was born in the 90's and I would be sensible enough to do this. I suppose it is just a way of preventing people suing the TOC's if they got injured.

Sorry to go slightly off topic.

The bars were there due to the limited clearances on the Cumbrian Coast Line.

 

[ryan125hst]

The bars were there due to the limited clearances on the Cumbrian Coast Line.

That makes more sense.

Nothing but it is far more sensible to use powered doors and removing droplights means that AC can be more efficient as well meaning that vestibule spaces are no longer drafty or cold.

I understand that. With trains having air conditioning, it is better to have no opening windows (unless the AC fails!). Powered doors also means the dwell times are shorter, the doors are easier for passengers to open ect.

However, Mark 1 carriages aren't allowed to go any faster than 25mph unless there is a steward in every coach, and Mark 2 and 3 stock now how central locking which they didn't have before.

Only last week I watched a documentary where people were opening the doors before the train had stopped, and that was filmed in 1990.

I just find it strange that it was safe for slam door stock with no CDL to operate at 100mph for many years, and now it isn't. While I agree that all new stock should have powered doors (and CDL), in my opinion, there is no need for them to be as strict as they are with older stock.

 

[4SRKT]

Well, clearly it was safe for all those years and it still is. Powered doors are fractionally safer, and in the endless and fruitless quest to eliminate risk entirely that so obsesses people of limited intelligence, it's worth spending massive amounts more money to reduce risk by a fraction of a percent.

 

[142094]

I've just received a stakeholder magazine this morning from Northern which mentions the service, and it says around 100 people used it every day (not sure if that is one way or both trips combined, but certainly loadings from Sellafield in the evening were quite high). No mention of when any news will be forthcoming, but I really hope it does get reinstated.

 

[Blindtraveler]

wel when you look at the capacity of the usual unit, bare in mind that numbers wil definately go up due to the site becoming car free and also take note of how short of stock Northern are then the arguments for restarting it are many!