Yet more Virgin vs Chiltern adverts...

[MidnightFlyer]

On the day that Chiltern launched their new Mainline timetable, Virgin launched this:

MONDAY, SEPTEMBER 5, 2011
Fly Virgin Trains to London

VIRGIN TRAINS INVITES CUSTOMERS TO ‘FLY’ VIRGIN TRAINS AND EXPERIENCE THE FASTEST WAY TO TRAVEL BETWEEN LONDON AND BIRMINGHAM

London, 5, September 2011
Today, Virgin Trains launches a new campaign ‘Fly Virgin Trains’. It celebrates Virgin Trains as the fastest way to travel between Birmingham and London.

Trains run every twenty minutes and take 1hr 24mins*, which gives you more time at your destination. That could be more time in London sightseeing, extra time before you set off for your business meeting or getting home earlier to see the kids.

Virgin Trains is also pleased to be able to reserve seats when you book in advance. It’s an easy way to guarantee a seat and it’s free. The reservation allows you to choose a window or aisle seat, a power socket or to relax in our quiet coach. Just don’t get too comfortable, you’ll be there before you know it.

Onboard every Virgin Trains service there’s a Shop providing refreshments. Plus we’ve got staff onboard every train there to help. Or choose to Fly to London in style in First Class and enjoy complimentary food and drink brought straight to your seat.

Virgin Trains services arrive and depart from London Euston. Euston is centrally located in London and well connected for onward travel – so you can get to your ultimate destination more quickly. Euston is on the Victoria and both branches of the Northern Line London Underground. It’s a 5 minute walk from Euston Square underground station which is on the Metropolitan, Hammersmith & City and Circle lines. Euston is also on the London Overground network and well connected by London buses. There’s a taxi rank located beneath the station as well as car hire facilities.

Trains arrive and depart from Birmingham New Street Station, which is right in the heart of the retail district and a short walk from the commercial district of Birmingham. Birmingham New Street provides excellent onward transport links via local buses and trains. Plus there’s a taxi rank outside the main station entrance.

* Services run every 20mins London Euston to Birmingham New Street Mon-Fri 6:03am – 9:03pm, Sat 7:03am-7:43pm & Sun 12:18pm-8:38pm. Average journey time 1hr 22mins.
Services run every 20mins Birmingham New Street to London Euston Mon-Fri 5:29am - 8:10pm, Sat 5.50am-7.10pm & Sun 11.30am-7.30pm. Average journey time 1hr 24mins

There are massive banners promoting the new 'Fly' adverts above the booking office at New St and on bridge inside Coventry's booking hall. This follows on from CHiltern and Virgin being at loggerheads earlier this year for advertising, with both posting massive adverts advertsing their services outside each other's stations. Chiltern vs. Virgin seems to be by far the worst rivalry for competition, and to be honest I can't see it ending before the new franchises (or HS2 thereafter).

 

[MCR247]

LM is joining in with their cheap 3tph as well though, although obviously that is more of a worry for Chiltern than Virgin

 

[Schnellzug]

Worst rivalry? I think this is what privatisation should be about, encouraging compeition, and hence choice; and if Virgin are protected from competition on the WCML (although to their credit, LM seem to be making an endeavour), then when there are two alternative routes between places, I think this is the way that it should be done. I'm afraid i've never bought the argument that rail should be a monopoly. But competition might drive Chiltern out of business? Well, if the service is a franchise commitment, that'd be safeguarded, wouldn't it, not like WSMR.
Rivalry, after all, doesn't seem to have done Virgin and BA any harm.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Worst rivalry? I think this is what privatisation should be about, encouraging compeition, and hence choice;.

Fine for a short spell but eventually one of them will end up doing the other out of business absorbing or taking the others over and creating a monopoly (as per the bus industry) and then charge whatever they can get away with resulting in no competition and no choice.

 

[Schnellzug]

But that analogy would mean that Virgin would then take over services from Marylebone, or close it down completely. I can't see them wanting to do the former, (even if it was permitted by the Competition people), and even if the current operator was driven out of business then the franchise would just be re-let, as has happened several times already, with no interruption in service.

 

[oversteer]

Surely Chiltern do very well out of the commuter services south of Bicester/Aylesbury..

 

[Greenback]

If people don't like aircraft, the Virgin ads might send them to Chiltern instead!

Rail certainly isn;t a monopoly even if there is only one service provider like my daily commute. I have the option of taking the bus or the private car instead.

 

[TDK]

On the day that Chiltern launched their new Mainline timetable, Virgin launched this:



There are massive banners promoting the new 'Fly' adverts above the booking office at New St and on bridge inside Coventry's booking hall. This follows on from CHiltern and Virgin being at loggerheads earlier this year for advertising, with both posting massive adverts advertsing their services outside each other's stations. Chiltern vs. Virgin seems to be by far the worst rivalry for competition, and to be honest I can't see it ending before the new franchises (or HS2 thereafter).

I think VT are worried about the new Chiltern service and to be honest I think they should, a cheaper, more comfortable with less hassel way to travel to London from Brum with some very good parkway stations on the route, I personally think Chiltern will take a lot of custom from VT and it is about time someone did as they have monopolised the gateway to London with their very expensive open fares and smelly uncomfortable trains for far too long.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Fine for a short spell but eventually one of them will end up doing the other out of business absorbing or taking the others over and creating a monopoly (as per the bus industry) and then charge whatever they can get away with resulting in no competition and no choice.

As above, Chiltern are now in the process of stopping what is happening already with VT

 

[Lampshade]

Chiltern EASILY have the price advantage over VT - plus peak restrictions out of Marylebone aren't half as restrictive as out of Euston, the trains are nicer and the wifi is cheaper (and by cheaper I mean free).

 

[TUC]

Fine for a short spell but eventually one of them will end up doing the other out of business absorbing or taking the others over and creating a monopoly (as per the bus industry) and then charge whatever they can get away with resulting in no competition and no choice.

That's always the argument that's always used but to say that competition might result in a monopoly so let's have a monopoly anyway seems a entirely peverse argument.

 

[MCR247]

Fine for a short spell but eventually one of them will end up doing the other out of business absorbing or taking the others over and creating a monopoly (as per the bus industry) and then charge whatever they can get away with resulting in no competition and no choice.

Oh because that is really going to happen in the UK rail industry :roll:


Flying, buses maybe, trains no.

 

[junglejames]

Just like Greenback mentioned, an advert that mentions flying is likely to put me off. I go by train because i want to go by train, and not fly.
Virgins trains are already too much like aircraft, and now they advertise themselves flying you to your destination.
Well, id better stick to the trains, as thats what ive chosen already. So looks like Chiltern is the option!

Id love to claim that this advert has pushed me onto Chilterns trains, but I somehow doubt anybody here would fall for that!

 

[WestCoast]

The headline time of 1h24 or less on Virgin is still tempting for business travellers. Plus, I think Virgin have still got the edge on the first class travel.

 

[furryfeet]

So are virgin going to reduce their prices in an attempt to keep their passengers from using Chiltern instead ?
Otherwise people will see their posters for what they truly are - a gimmic.

As another comment on this thread has stated, this sort of competition of "speed versus price" was exactly what the Tories wanted to happen when they privatised the railways.

 

[All Line Rover]

Chiltern EASILY have the price advantage over VT - plus peak restrictions out of Marylebone aren't half as restrictive as out of Euston, the trains are nicer and the wifi is cheaper (and by cheaper I mean free).

Chiltern's Super Off-Peak ticket now has the same restrictions as Virgin's Off-Peak ticket.

 

[AlterEgo]

So are virgin going to reduce their prices in an attempt to keep their passengers from using Chiltern instead ?
Otherwise people will see their posters for what they truly are - a gimmic.

I'm not sure there's anything wrong with demanding a premium price for a premium product. I'm thinking of First Class offerings here - people (or their employers) will pay the money for the experience.

There are a lot of armchair critics on here. I would suggest that people try each offering first before making sweeping statements. All advertising is a 'gimmick' - both Chiltern and Virgin are reaching out in different ways to appeal to the market. Remember that the Virgin advert isn't aimed at the kind of people who have time to frequent RailUK's esteemed forums....

The competition is most certainly a good thing - both TOCs are now thinking hard about the quality of service they provide!

I did try to sample a Silver Train, but was thwarted as it was cancelled at Moor Street while I was sat in the Business Zone waiting for the right-away!

It is important to note that Chiltern really, really need Mainline to be an outstanding success, else the future for them looks grim. Virgin (or whoever the next franchise holder is) will be running services from New Street for a long time to come.

 

[ushawk]

After trying the new Mainline and the "new" silver trains, Virgin should be worried really. Chiltern fares are a lot cheaper and whilst they may not be as frequent as Virgin between London and Birmingham - Chiltern services dont take much longer than Virgin.

Remembering that the Chiltern lines were close to being closed at one point so they have came a very long way and i can see it getting better (especially if it eventually gets electrfied).

 

[185]

Rather go on Chiltern or LM than a stinky Pendolino anyday.

Last three I've been on had aircon and toilet issues.

Poopoolino

 

[Mutant Lemming]

But that analogy would mean that Virgin would then take over services from Marylebone, or close it down completely. I can't see them wanting to do the former, (even if it was permitted by the Competition people), and even if the current operator was driven out of business then the franchise would just be re-let, as has happened several times already, with no interruption in service.

It is inevitable eventually - either the companies will be subject to takeover, amalgamate or form cartels. Businesses can always make a case as to why such an arrangement is necessary and put pressure on any government to agree.

As for personal choice on the London to Birmingham route - I was on a Chiltern train out of Marylebone to Haddneham yesterday. It was busy and cramped and felt like a commuter train. Am glad my journey on it was only for 40 minutes. At least the Virgin services feel like there is more room and it's a proper inter-city train.

 

[dk1]

I dont mind going via Chiltern now & again as it makes a nice change but would usually choose to go Virgin. Weekends especially as the WCML offering is much quicker & apart from Sunday mornings, every 20 minutes.

I would imagine business travellers who are on company account will always only accept the fastest & most frequent train operator & will not be worried about cost.

 

[merlodlliw]

Vt are well used to spoilers, I recall ads in the local papers here with Vt bragging they were quicker & better, but not as cheap as W/S.

When FNW started the London runs, VT took up nearly every billboard at Euston.Man Vic ,Man Picc & Man airport, saying they were quicker,better & only £10 rtn Man Picc to Euston.

 

[Schnellzug]

It is inevitable eventually - either the companies will be subject to takeover, amalgamate or form cartels. Businesses can always make a case as to why such an arrangement is necessary and put pressure on any government to agree.

But that isn't how the franchising system works. There are many grounds on which you can criticise it, but one operator can't just take over or drive out of business a competitor, if that did happen the franchise would be re-let to someone else, Virgin wouldn't just be allowed to take it over. And I don't think they'd be very interested in commuter services to High Wycombe anyway.

As for personal choice on the London to Birmingham route - I was on a Chiltern train out of Marylebone to Haddneham yesterday. It was busy and cramped and felt like a commuter train. Am glad my journey on it was only for 40 minutes. At least the Virgin services feel like there is more room and it's a proper inter-city train.

i expect that was probably a 165. I think many would use the same adjectives to describe a well loaded Pendo.

 

[mumrar]

Reading through this thread it could be mistaken that some of you have never encountered advertising and competing brands before now.

Virgin are not telling lies, in fact they could be seen to shoot themselves in the foot as the parallels between their peak fares and that of airlines are rather cosy after all! It is they who are under threat from Chiltern's faster services and are looking to make headway before a flow of passengers away from their services.

Key to this is Virgin's services traversing a route that is around 10 miles longer, or around 9% more than Chiltern's route from Moor Street to Marylebone.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I dont mind going via Chiltern now & again as it makes a nice change but would usually choose to go Virgin. Weekends especially as the WCML offering is much quicker & apart from Sunday mornings, every 20 minutes.

I would imagine business travellers who are on company account will always only accept the fastest & most frequent train operator & will not be worried about cost.

This is true, but behind the scenes both Chiltern and Virgin will be telling the companies who pay for these accounts why their workers should travel into Marylebone or Euston. There is definitely enough business for everybody at the moment, Birmingham to London can probably justify 8 trains an hour (split between the tree operators) for most of the day, and it certainly can in the peaks.
For Chiltern it is just a case of putting their service on the map, for years they were the "best kept secret" on the railway, which while a flattering nickname to have isnt exactly great for business. Now the discrepancy in journey times between the two routes is 10-15 minutes rather than 30-40 minutes then Chiltern can say they are a providing a genuine intercity service between the capital and second cities. Virgin on the other hand can point to other areas where Chiltern do lack (frequency of express trains, lack of first class on every train) now the journey time thing isnt such an open goal and they might introduce free WiFi on their trains if they see it is popular with people who are travelling on Chiltern. I maintain that Birmingham to London passengers are the biggest winners out of privatisation, the quality of service over the last 15 years has improved dramatically. Competition has made this happen and we should embrace it, even if it means a few annoying billboards at stations.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

But that isn't how the franchising system works. There are many grounds on which you can criticise it, but one operator can't just take over or drive out of business a competitor, if that did happen the franchise would be re-let to someone else, Virgin wouldn't just be allowed to take it over. And I don't think they'd be very interested in commuter services to High Wycombe anyway.



i expect that was probably a 165. I think many would use the same adjectives to describe a well loaded Pendo.

It may not work like that at present but if the 'business' dictates change in another direction then it could quite easily alter. First seem to be buidling up quite a sizeable empire (although they are getting close to driving me back in to my car to commute). Wouldn't take a great deal for a cartel style duopoly (or maybe three companies) to arise.

Have sampled crowded Virgin services to the North and although not pleasant would prefer those to the Chiltern variety. If a few more loco hauled services appear however that may make a difference.

 

[williamn]

Having a 20 minute frequency is not a selling point when you have to book onto a specific train to get a reasonable fare. Virgin should come up with some inventive scheme where you might book for a 'window' of departures instead, say of an hours duration, giving you a choice of 3 trains.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Having a 20 minute frequency is not a selling point when you have to book onto a specific train to get a reasonable fare.

It is a huge selling point when you are travelling on an open ticket or a season ticket though.

 

[Chilterns Dan]

I expect Chiltern Railway see their Mainline project as a way of breaking into new markets - especially the more time sensitive business travellers.

In terms of quality and comfort, I know plenty of people who find the narrow Pendolino seating uncomfortable, who I imagine would much prefer the rather more substantial seating used in Chiltern's Silver Mainline trains sets (of which I understand 2 are in service with another 2 to follow).

I'm unsure about the validity of suggestions that Mainline is essential for Chiltern's survival (my shoulder-peak trains are never quiet, that's for sure), but I imagine it's a vital step to expand the business.

 

[WestCoast]

It is a huge selling point when you are travelling on an open ticket or a season ticket though.

If you've got a railcard then £29.25 will buy you an Off-peak Return on Virgin, which you can use at any time. You have an every 20 minute frequency throughout the day and a choice of the really fast headline trains in the morning/evening peak - e.g. 1h12m.

This undercuts Chiltern's railcard Anytime Return by over £20!

I think it's a gross exaggeration to say that Chiltern is always cheaper.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I'm unsure about the validity of suggestions that Mainline is essential for Chiltern's survival (my shoulder-peak trains are never quiet, that's for sure), but I imagine it's a vital step to expand the business.

They probably are. Chiltern dropped £250m on the mainline upgrades, the taxpayer tends to pay for improved railway infrastructure but this was funded privately. The passengers need to come to pay the bills. It doesn't mean that much to Joe Public of course, the work has been done and whoever holds the franchise in years to come will benefit from that work much like Chiltern benefited from the route modernisation under BR immediately before the network was privatised.

It has been a sticky start for the project too, there has been a lot of bad publicity in the newspapers, especially in the Chiltern heartlands of High Wycombe and Beaconsfield. How much of this is due to the inevitable teething problems that comes with the complete resignalling of a line (there have been a lot of signal problems since the line reopened) remains to be seen, but Chiltern's dreams of expansion into the Intercity caper could be undermined by the people who are the lifeblood of the franchise because at the moment the company are trying to run a four track service on a two track railway. Can everything be squeezed in? It kinda has to I think.