WSMR gone - alternatives?

[Pumbaa]

Agreed on all counts. Maybe something to only consider if LM ever do get the additional batch of 350s (as was rumoured once upon a time)

The tender's still there in the European journal

 

[tbtc]

The tender's still there in the European journal

Interesting...

Hmm, new batch of 350s for LM, cascade the 321s to NXEA (for lengthening), cascade the 323s to Northern (for the Chat Moss/ Blackpool electrifications, to go with the other 323s in the north west, so a common fleet)... some more 350s built for Birmingham/Manchester Airport - Edinburgh/Glasgow (with seating suitable for longer distance journeys)... LM can then consider through services like Walsall/ Bromsgrove - London... everyone's a winner

 

[Pumbaa]

Apart from Derby

 

[sprinterguy]

Interesting...

Hmm, new batch of 350s for LM, cascade the 321s to NXEA (for lengthening), cascade the 323s to Northern (for the Chat Moss/ Blackpool electrifications, to go with the other 323s in the north west, so a common fleet)... some more 350s built for Birmingham/Manchester Airport - Edinburgh/Glasgow (with seating suitable for longer distance journeys)... LM can then consider through services like Walsall/ Bromsgrove - London... everyone's a winner

It would certainly improve the efficiency of direct Walsall-London trains if the proposed 350/3 fleet to replace the 323s became a reality. I think 23 metre Desiro vehicles would be better suited to Birmingham/Manchester to Scotland, akin to the 380s, but it would be good to see both orders being undertaken simultaneously on parallel production lines to keep Siemens busy all at the one time.

Liverpool-Walsall-New Street-London would be hopeless as a through journey in terms of journey times: I'd be doing things differently to the proposals that I've seen and I don’t hold out much hope for the proposal to make it through the next 15 years prior to HS2 opening in that form, given that timetable plans for local lines post-HS2 are nothing more than tentative ideas right now, but it’s good to see that thought is being given to giving Walsall better connections to a wider range of destinations.

 

[tbtc]

it’s good to see that thought is being given to giving Walsall better connections to a wider range of destinations

I thought the Virgin "spoiler" proposal against WSMR was very interesting (London - Nuneaton - Walsall - Wolverhampton - Shrewsbury), its a shame the Nuneaton - Walsall - Wolverhampton wasn't started, as it'd have been a "New Street avoiding line", albeit a slow one as it snaked around the West Midlands on "freight" lines.
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I think 23 metre Desiro vehicles would be better suited to Birmingham/Manchester to Scotland, akin to the 380s

I think I'll probably agree with you, but want to have a few rides on the 380s before I can pass comment. They seem like a really good idea. I'm just keen to keep EMU fleets as simple as possible (for operational reasons), so think if we have one design that works well we should built several

 

[lm321412]

Well, the fastest London Midland journey is 2hr 03, and then your talking 20 - 25 minutes to Walsall depending on stops which in my opinion isn't too slow and certainly isn't 2hr 50!

Plenty of people sat 2hr 20 on WSMR in standard class, so why not get a 350 (/1 if possible) possibly use a trolley service and give it a go! Plenty of spare 321s avaliable for stock utilisation south of Northampton too

 

[MCR247]

You can't compare a WSMR MK3 standard to a 350 can you?

 

[Geezertronic]

You can't compare a WSMR MK3 standard to a 350 can you?

If it's got a trolley, what's the difference

 

[lm321412]

You can't compare a WSMR MK3 standard to a 350 can you?

No, but on a 350/1 they do have tables at every seat (abeit mostly pull out ones) and have/do work long distance work at London Midland with no problem/major complaints even if I detest the things. It won't be as good as WSMR, but it will be only a tiny bit slower with the provision of a trolley service if needed.

 

[MCR247]

IF LM were to ever diagram /1s and /2s seperately, I (and hopefully LM would too) would prioritise /1s for Crewe, not Walsall

 

[craig87034]

Plenty of spare 321s avaliable for stock utilisation south of Northampton too

No there's not there's 3 for 3 diagrams http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=40094
411 NXEA
412 LM
413 C6 at donnie then to NXEA
414 LM
415 NXEA
416 LM
417 LM christmas tree but not to sure

 

[lm321412]

No there's not there's 3 for 3 diagrams http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=40094
411 NXEA
412 LM
413 C6 at donnie then to NXEA
414 LM
415 NXEA
416 LM
417 LM christmas tree but not to sure

411,413,415 are loaned because they are not required at this present time...
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IF LM were to ever diagram /1s and /2s seperately, I (and hopefully LM would too) would prioritise /1s for Crewe, not Walsall

Well they made a good job of sticking one on the 0901 Walsall - Birmingham for the majority of last year! I find it quite funny that the main stirrer in this lives miles away from the actual route

 

[MCR247]

Well they made a good job of sticking one on the 0901 Walsall - Birmingham for the majority of last year! I find it quite funny that the main stirrer in this lives miles away from the actual route

Thats nice And whys that relevant?

 

[lm321412]

Thats nice And whys that relevant?

I made two points there but, you have not made yourself clear which one has came under your scrutiny this time. At least before the December timetable change, LM managed to use a 350/1 every day on the 0901 ex Walsall and afaik was rarely ever one of the /2 counterparts. This means that if they can stick an /1 on that diagram then they shouldn't have any problems keeping one on a Walsall - Euston service.

My second point is of relevance because you are making points without knowing the area. You didn't understand Tame Bridge Parkway is in Walsall and there onwards made poor judgements of the service because you didn't like the sound of it. I think that Walsall, a large town which is bigger than some cities in terms of population deserves at least one train per day. Take Chester, gets an hourly service yet has 100,000 people less than Walsall for example. You could also mention places such as Berwick Upon Tweed but it's only likely to stirr up more problems with our very own Railway Critic.

 

[MCR247]

Well what I was saying was that firstly
1) LM don't diagram the 350s separately, and I was saying if they did, I think they would prioritise (or I hope the would) /1s for Trent Valley trains
2) Would many people actually use it?

 

[Pumbaa]

411,413,415 are loaned because they are not required at this present time...

These are not loaned anymore - paperwork now done.
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Well they made a good job of sticking one on the 0901 Walsall - Birmingham for the majority of last year! I find it quite funny that the main stirrer in this lives miles away from the actual route

There is no official diagramming, however they try their best to kick em out on the allocated diagrams; as an indicator there are 7 /1s on the Liverpool runs with 1/2 allocated. Crewe takes 8/1s although these change so much as they're subject to morning congestion on the early runs in from Northampton and Crewe. The mainline routes are mixed; from last TT change the Tring/Brum New St workings interwork, only the MK runs stay on the same journeys all day. The one that came through Walsall ends up doing Northampton - Euston - Tring etc runs off the top of my head, before buggering off to Crewe for the night.

 

[martinsh]

There is no official diagramming, however they try their best to kick em out on the allocated diagrams; as an indicator there are 7 /1s on the Liverpool runs with 1/2 allocated..

I've not seen a /2 on the Liverpool route for a long time, and I use them almost every day

 

[Pumbaa]

There is one peak-time working that is meant to be allocated a /2, the 1834 off Lime St is the one in question I believe. Last week on three separate days I saw a working off Lime St was a /2.

 

[wulfruna]

My second point is of relevance because you [MCR247] are making points without knowing the area. You [MCR247] didn't understand Tame Bridge Parkway is in Walsall

Sorry lm321412 but this was too good to miss.

Tame Bridge Parkway is located in Sandwell, serving on the one side (turn left up the ramp as you exit station) Friar Park and Stone Cross and on the other (turn right) the Yew Tree Estate - north of the M5. All these locations are in Sandwell - not Walsall.

When out and about, if you are not sure where you are, then check the background colour of the Road Names. Green = Sandwell. Brown = Walsall. White Sandwell name boards normally have the Sandwell logo on them. Simples

 

[lm321412]

Sorry lm321412 but this was too good to miss.

Tame Bridge Parkway is located in Sandwell, serving on the one side (turn left up the ramp as you exit station) Friar Park and Stone Cross and on the other (turn right) the Yew Tree Estate - north of the M5. All these locations are in Sandwell - not Walsall.

When out and about, if you are not sure where you are, then check the background colour of the Road Names. Green = Sandwell. Brown = Walsall. White Sandwell name boards normally have the Sandwell logo on them. Simples

It's all the same really but I suppose you are right

Still, its about 10 minutes from Walsall if that!

 

[TheWalrus]

i understand what youre getting at lm321412!

 

[WL113]

Wether Tame Bridge Parkway is in Walsall, Sandwell (wherever that is) or Timbuktu, Tame Bridge is by far the easier station to use than Walsall, (no parking facilities whatsoever) or Bescot Stadium (usually a full car park at weekends)

Tame Bridge gave Walsall a valuable direct service to London with WSMR....
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The difference is that the withdrawal of the Wolves - Walsall service was to free up a 153 to use elsewhere.

However a direct Walsall - London service could be provided without any additional units, just combining an existing Walsall - New Street and New Street - Euston services. No cost to the company (and not just about London, there would be a direct link from Walsall to Coventry etc)

Well now they have a 170 sitting in Walsall platform 3 for half an hour, more than enough time to run to Wolves......

As for the 153s, the Stourbridge Town branch went over to light rail at around the same time, where did all those single cars go?

 

[The Planner]

On to the back of the 170s.

 

[tbtc]

On to the back of the 170s.

Which routes see the 170+153 combination? Is it only certain workings, or all day duties?

 

[sprinterguy]

Which routes see the 170+153 combination? Is it only certain workings, or all day duties?

All day duties, principally on the Chase line, so that despite having a mix of two carriage 170/5s and three carriage 170/6s on the route, the vast majority of services can be formed of three carriages, with several 170/5+153 combinations. There’s also one 170/5+153 diagram on the Hereford-Birmingham run, and one 150 hybrid+153 on the Snow Hill lines.

There is of course also a single 153 tied up on the Coventry-Nuneaton line.

 

[Railjet]

Tame Bridge gave Walsall a valuable direct service to London with WSMR....

I'm not sure that the 175,000 residents of Walsall would agree with you. Whenever I've got on or off a WSMR train there, there have never been more than half a dozen others doing the same.

 

[TheWalrus]

I'm not sure that the 175,000 residents of Walsall would agree with you. Whenever I've got on or off a WSMR train there, there have never been more than half a dozen others doing the same.

When I passed thru to banbury, no one got on and i think 1 got off? the big ones were shrewsbury and telford, couple at cosford and wellington, leam and ban, loads off at wolves.

 

[tbtc]

All day duties, principally on the Chase line, so that despite having a mix of two carriage 170/5s and three carriage 170/6s on the route, the vast majority of services can be formed of three carriages, with several 170/5+153 combinations. There’s also one 170/5+153 diagram on the Hereford-Birmingham run, and one 150 hybrid+153 on the Snow Hill lines.

There is of course also a single 153 tied up on the Coventry-Nuneaton line.

Thanks, that's interesting.

One part of the "cascade" I saw mentioned was for LM to give their 170 centre-cars to XC, to bring XC's allocation up to all three car (and LM all two car?) - not sure if this is still happening. However, if this is the case then it sounds like LM will need *more* 153s...

 

[laird]

Thinking about Walrus' point Tame Bridge did seem to be growing at one stage but the most recent timetable saw it loose some calls as while the rest of the route went from four to three trains per day it lost the afternoon Southbound too.

I wasn't a big fan of the station personally having been stuck there when two WSMR failed to call one snowy day. Had the station been provided with a working information system it wouldn't have been such a problem but on trying the information point the good number of passengers waiting and I were somewhat surprised to discover that it was dialling 999. Rather unsurprisingly the emergency service operator was less than impressed when we explained that we were sorry and no we couldn't hang up because there isn't a hang up button on the help point.
I might have understood being connected to British Transport Police, potentially that might have been useful although I suspect they too would have been rather upset by requests for information as to where is the WSMR service to Marylebone!

From my personal observations Marylebone seemed a good source of customers, Banbury was OK (often used to see Andy Hamilton and friends boarding there), Leamington so so but I guess that was more for the passengers on the morning South and evening North, Tame Bridge Parkway was getting better, Wolverhampton added lots of local travellers, Cosford always had a small dedicated following, Telford brought plenty of expensed travellers and was probably only second to Shrewsbury for volume. Perhaps Wellington and Wrexham did bring prestigious customers, particularly if connecting on to the WAG express?

 

[IanXC]

Bit of timetable study - occurred to me that DB could have promoted a route with all their services, a few slight alterations would improve it, but with a trolley on both services I think they could have shown a realistic alternative. Particularly had they maintained W&S pricing seeing as nearly every single (even in Advance) is about double W&S' £40 return - although I can imagine loadings on the Chiltern services into and out of Marylebone are pretty high anyway?

W&S
Shrewsbury 05.52
Marylebone 08.57

DB Alternative
Shrewsbury 05.21
Smethwick Galton Bridge Arr 06.11 Dep 06.35
Marylebone 08.54

W&S
Marylebone 18.33
Shrewsbury 21.46

DB Alternative
Marylebone 18.00
Smethwick Galton Bridge Arr 20.18 Dep 20.30
Shrewsbury 21.19

I suppose if loadings were sufficient a loco hauled Chiltern rake could be used on those particular Kidderminster services?