WSMR gone - alternatives?

[TheWalrus]

Hi

Now WSMR has ceased operation could this provide an opportunity for franchised operators to start operating Shrewsbury-London? Maybe Virgin would be interested? This could be done by either extending Euston-Wolves to Shrewsbury/Wrexham etc.; or extending a Euston-Brum to Shrewsbury via Tame Bridge. This would be the best option as it caters for all of the WSMR served stations with a link to London, which would be better with potentially a similar level of service to WSMR. It would need to be done using 221s, so it could run as a double to Brum, with the front portion detaching to Shrewsbury. They could also look at going on to Wrexham/Chester, or maybe even Mach/Aberystwyth (depending on 221 clearance!)

I realise there are problems with this solution. A major one would be diesels running under the wires between Wolves-Euston, but this could be solved by building a pantograph car for the 221s.

With the WC franchise consultation underway, this may well be a good proposal to put forward to be included in the next set of franchise agreements.

Many Thanks,

Ryan

 

[CosherB]

, but this could be solved by building a pantograph car for the 221s.

What's that then? How'd that work?

 

[rail-britain]

If DBS had been serious about this, they would have absorbed WSMR into either ATW or Chiltern, or even as a going concern
That didn't happen so the industry will move on
Sadly now all the TOCs will look at the route as non-profitable and so will be very reluctant to try again within the next 20 years

 

[TheWalrus]

If DBS had been serious about this, they would have absorbed WSMR into either ATW or Chiltern, or even as a going concern
That didn't happen so the industry will move on
Sadly now all the TOCs will look at the route as non-profitable and so will be very reluctant to try again within the next 20 years

It was absorbed into Chiltern I believe. :/

This is why it needs to be in the franchise agreements, so the TOC runs it! I think if it was an extension of a Euston-Brum, it may well work!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What's that then? How'd that work?

It's been talked about a lot recently, Bombardier have proposed to build some pantograph cars to convert the 22Xs to EDMUs, where they effectively run as bi-modes; electric under the wires, diesel off the wires.

 

[ainsworth74]

What's that then? How'd that work?

It's an idea that's been bandied around for a while and gained traction when a few months ago Bombardier said that they were seriously looking at actually fitting pantograph cars to the 22x fleets (if these new pantograph cars were to be ordered of course).

Basically because the 22xs are DEMU's they have diesel engines that power generator that then feed AC to the traction motors. Therefore if you fit a pantograph (and some other electrical gubbins) you can take power from the OHLE and feed it straight to the traction motors without needing to use the diesel engines at all. (At least that's how I understand it!)

 

[CosherB]

Basically because the 22xs are DEMU's they have diesel engines that power generator that then feed AC to the traction motors. Therefore if you fit a pantograph (and some other electrical gubbins) you can take power from the OHLE and feed it straight to the traction motors without needing to use the diesel engines at all. (At least that's how I understand it!)

Thanks for that. Sounds like a good idea even if it would mean hauling the weight of the diesel engines, the cooling group, the fuel etc around when running as an EMU.

 

[The Planner]

This could be done by either extending Euston-Wolves to Shrewsbury/Wrexham etc.; or extending a Euston-Brum to Shrewsbury via Tame Bridge.

Would murder it going that way, Soho is slow as hell, Tame Bridge would be a waste of time.

or maybe even Mach/Aberystwyth (depending on 221 clearance!)

ERTMS fitted Voyagers, I like the sound of that...

 

[TheWalrus]

Would murder it going that way, Soho is slow as hell, Tame Bridge would be a waste of time.

ERTMS fitted Voyagers, I like the sound of that...

So this is where we modify the proposal...extend a Wolves and go via Sandwell

Oh yeah ERTMS...is that something that's never going to happen on Voyagers? Probs not a great idea to run it there anyway! But a direct London service would be good

 

[lm321412]

Seems to be a point that has been overlooked in all this, Walsall now has lost its direct link to London (Tame Bridge Parkway was its link). Coudln't London Midland extend one of their Birmingham - London services to start at Walsall? The 350s are cleared so there would be no problems with rolling stock.

 

[MCR247]

What? If Tame Bridge Pkwy was its link then pax just stay on the train to Birmingham? So they have not lost any link.

 

[lm321412]

What? If Tame Bridge Pkwy was its link then pax just stay on the train to Birmingham? So they have not lost any link.

They don't all live in Walsall Town Centre...

Virgin proposed their Shrewsbury service to call at Walsall in 2009 I believe too, but it would make more sense for London Midland to operate a once a day service to satisfy people who do not like changing trains & to probably get in some extra revenue.

 

[TheWalrus]

I think he may have meant tame bridge is in walsall? and the walsall-euston LM idea sounds good!

 

[tbtc]

the walsall-euston LM idea sounds good!

I appreciate that there are restrictions on London - Wolves (so LM couldn't run any London - MK - Northampton - Rugby - Cov - Birmingham services on to the Birmingham - Wolves runs).

However, there'd be nothing stopping a London - Birmingham service extending on to Walsall service - there'd not be any bother with that AFAIK. Not a fast service, of course, but Walsall is a big place to have no direct service

 

[MCR247]

Although it would be direct, would people really want to use it even though it takes ages? WSMR had a USP, London Midland would just mean sitting on a 3+2 commuter train for forever and a day!

 

[TheWalrus]

Moderation of competition is ridiculous. It stops the railway operating effectively. However I believe it may be scrapped next year!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Although it would be direct, would people really want to use it even though it takes ages? WSMR had a USP, London Midland would just mean sitting on a 3+2 commuter train for forever and a day!

How long would it take if it was an extension of LMs fastest Euston-Brum?

 

[Geezertronic]

So this is where we modify the proposal...extend a Wolves and go via Sandwell

Excuse my ignorance, but the VT services go via Sandwell (and Dudley) to get to Wolves anyway?

 

[TheWalrus]

Excuse my ignorance, but the VT services go via Sandwell (and Dudley) to get to Wolves anyway?

Yes! I was just clarifying they would go thru Sandwell and NOT Tame!

 

[MCR247]

Virgin with a change at NS - 1h56
LM direct - 2h50-55ish

 

[lm321412]

How long would it take if it was an extension of LMs fastest Euston-Brum?

2hr 25min I make it, which is about 5 minutes longer than the WSMR option.

 

[Geezertronic]

Yes! I was just clarifying they would go thru Sandwell and NOT Tame!

Like they do at the moment then Only issue with extending some of the Wolves services would be a lack of stock - maybe if someone had ordered more 390s in addition to the extra 4 then the Birmingham-Scotlands 221s could have been used

 

[TheWalrus]

the Birmingham-Scotlands 221s could have been used

Thats where i was sourcing them from! a couple of swaps
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

2hr 25min I make it, which is about 5 minutes longer than the WSMR option.

Is that worth it? :/

 

[martinsh]

London Midland would just mean sitting on a 3+2 commuter train for forever and a day!

Some people seem to like that. There are always Liverpool - London passngers changing from LPL - BNS to the Trent Valley dawdler at Stafford !

 

[tbtc]

Moderation of competition is ridiculous. It stops the railway operating effectively

Do you think TOCs would invest money in improving services if there was no guarantee they'd have future income?

Why spend all that money (after carefully costing out a long franchise, with a competative bid) and then find someone has come along and ruined your income with an ORCATs raid?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Although it would be direct, would people really want to use it even though it takes ages? WSMR had a USP, London Midland would just mean sitting on a 3+2 commuter train for forever and a day!

Its not ideal, but it might encourage a few through journeys at little marginal cost (since LM run EMUs on both sections anyway).

Walsall's population is (allegedly) 174,994, which is pretty sizeable

 

[starrymarkb]

Oh yeah ERTMS...is that something that's never going to happen on Voyagers?

I believe they have provision for it as the WCML was originally going to be Moving Block using ERTMS Level III* - though they might have been thinking of Seltrac)

AFAIK no-one has got Level III working yet. All European installations have been Level I (overlaid on existing signalling) or Level II (cab signalling only)

 

[WL113]

The loss of WSMR is a tragedy. This small company had many obstacles in it's path but still delivered a quality service and was held in esteem that other more established tocs could only dream of.

LM are unlikely to offer any more services from Walsall. They were quick to finish the Walsall to Wolverhampton service and recently reduced the Cannock line to an hourly service, terminating some services in Walsall station and parking the trains up for half an hour rather than using them to run to Rugeley.

 

[MCR247]

That is because the subsidiary ended

 

[tbtc]

LM are unlikely to offer any more services from Walsall. They were quick to finish the Walsall to Wolverhampton service and recently reduced the Cannock line to an hourly service, terminating some services in Walsall station and parking the trains up for half an hour rather than using them to run to Rugeley.

The difference is that the withdrawal of the Wolves - Walsall service was to free up a 153 to use elsewhere.

However a direct Walsall - London service could be provided without any additional units, just combining an existing Walsall - New Street and New Street - Euston services. No cost to the company (and not just about London, there would be a direct link from Walsall to Coventry etc)

 

[thewolf]

Virgin with a change at NS - 1h56
LM direct - 2h50-55ish

Is that worth it? :/

Why not? A lot of people don't mind the longer journey when there's a considerable cost saving to be made. I'm sure there are plenty of Walsall line passengers who change at New Street to get on the LM London service anyway...

Bear in mind that from New Street VT take under 90 minutes, but LM is around an hour longer and from Stoke (for example), VT is around 90 minutes, with the LM taking nearly double that - I'm sure many people go for the LM option (myself included - as a poor student) because its less than half the price.

 

[sprinterguy]

The difference is that the withdrawal of the Wolves - Walsall service was to free up a 153 to use elsewhere.

However a direct Walsall - London service could be provided without any additional units, just combining an existing Walsall - New Street and New Street - Euston services. No cost to the company (and not just about London, there would be a direct link from Walsall to Coventry etc)

Although New Street-Walsall uses class 323s and Birmingham-London stoppers use class 350s: Using one of the current 323 paths from Walsall would free up a 323 but put more pressure on the 350 fleet, and would also lose Perry Barr and Aston stops if a reversal in New Street was to be avoided.

Funnily enough, there’s an allusion to a Liverpool-Stafford-Rugeley-Walsall-New Street-Northampton-Euston LM service in Centro’s proposals for services on the WCML following the opening of HS2 (Which seems to conveniently skirt the problem of the non-electrified nature of the Chase line).

 

[tbtc]

Although New Street-Walsall uses class 323s and Birmingham-London stoppers use class 350s: Using one of the current 323 paths from Walsall would free up a 323 but put more pressure on the 350 fleet, and would also lose Perry Barr and Aston stops if a reversal in New Street was to be avoided

Agreed on all counts. Maybe something to only consider if LM ever do get the additional batch of 350s (as was rumoured once upon a time)

Funnily enough, there’s an allusion to a Liverpool-Stafford-Rugeley-Walsall-New Street-Northampton-Euston LM service in Centro’s proposals for services on the WCML following the opening of HS2 (Which seems to conveniently skirt the problem of the non-electrified nature of the Chase line)

That sounds an interesting route, if the Chase line ever gets wired (which I think it should be, much better to infill bits like this than do whole new areas)