Wrong use of contactless on Reading to Waterloo

[SWT_USER]

It is never going to cover the whole country so I'm not sure what can be regarded as complete in this instance, and clearly there is an overhead in installation that prevents a 'big-bang' introduction. There will be a mix of ignorance, chance and carelessness amongst users who think it extends further than it does.

Why is it difficult for passengers to look at information published by the railway, listen to announcements, take not of signs on stations which indicate where Contactless can be used?

A passenger knows contactless is valid between Reading and London, it's not unreasonable to assume it's valid via both routes. The average passenger does not know or care about the railways silly reasons for not accepting it. As far as I am aware there isn't any prominent signage at Reading advising it's not valid either.

RE your bold - same applies to staff. See various threads on this forum about staff refusing to look up restriction codes and refusing valid tickets. If the staff don't know what's valid and what isn't, how are passengers expected to?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Why is it difficult for passengers to look at information published by the railway, listen to announcements, take not of signs on stations which indicate where Contactless can be used?

Contactless can be used at Reading and it can be used at London Paddington and at London Waterloo. It can be used on the direct trains from Reading to London Paddington but it can't be used on the direct trains from Reading to London Waterloo.

It's not particularly obvious that this is the case.

TfL's map says "pay as you go with contactless...is valid at all stations within the pay as you go area, except where shown". Reading is shown on the map. The SWR stations Reading-Feltham are obviously not shown but this is another situation (as with the use of Network Railcards on Avanti) that you have to know the geography and you have to know that contactless is not valid because of its omission at intermediate stops.

I don't know the answer to this, but are there signs at Reading stating this? Do the station departure boards have a warning? Does the train PIS have a warning?

 

[SWT_USER]

Contactless can be used at Reading and it can be used at London Paddington and at London Waterloo. It can be used on the direct trains from Reading to London Paddington but it can't be used on the direct trains from Reading to London Waterloo.

It's not particularly obvious that this is the case.

TfL's map says "pay as you go with contactless...is valid at all stations within the pay as you go area, except where shown". Reading is shown on the map. The SWR stations Reading-Feltham are obviously not shown but this is another situation (as with the use of Network Railcards on Avanti) that you have to know the geography and you have to know that contactless is not valid because of its omission at intermediate stops.

I don't know the answer to this, but are there signs at Reading stating this? Do the station departure boards have a warning? Does the train PIS have a warning?

There are on train announcements that 'Oyster/ Contactless without a suitable extension are not valid beyond the next station' around Feltham. Although it's too late by then..

Nothing at Waterloo or Reading (as far as I can remember - not been for a while now) to indicate contactless not valid.

 

[Tetchytyke]

There are on train announcements that 'Oyster/ Contactless without a suitable extension are not valid beyond the next station' around Feltham. Although it's too late by then..

At least you can- in theory, if you understand the announcement- rectify this by getting off at Feltham, touching out and buying a paper ticket from Feltham to Reading.

If there's no warning at Reading you're completely snookered.

 

[davews]

Do the station departure boards have a warning? Does the train PIS have a warning?

The PIS on our train clearly announced 'contactless, oyster..... are not valid on this train' a couple of times before leaving. Nothing on the departure boards as far as I could see.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

It's not particularly obvious that this is the case.

I think the simple fix here is to make it valid for the whole journey, Reading to/from Waterloo, but not to/from intermediate stations outside London. This would require no new infrastructure and the RPIs already should have the right card readers on that route. We'd just need revised fares between Reading and stations in the zones. There are contactless fares on the Any Permitted flow, after all, at the same price as via Slough. Does this mean that SWR get some of the money from them while not allowing their use?

 

[JonathanH]

There are contactless fares on the Any Permitted flow, after all, at the same price as via Slough.

Reading to Waterloo is currently more expensive than Reading to Paddington, using Contactless. It is the same price to reach most other destinations beyond those stations.

I think the simple fix here is to make it valid for the whole journey, Reading to/from Waterloo, but not to/from intermediate stations outside London.

What happens when someone tries to use Contactless at the barriers at Wokingham or Bracknell? Are they told to continue to Reading or Feltham, or just let off with an incomplete journey?

 

[Watershed]

Does anyone know whether there is a GWR policy/brief regarding the use of contactless on the diverted Euston services?

Obviously there should be no problem using contactless as the journey is within the contactless validity area (on the handful of trains which have open calls at Reading). However I understand that some passengers travelling using contactless were charged for a new ticket on yesterday's diversions.

 

[Puffin3267]

I can understand it in a way. Actually, why not? It seems such a sensible idea to me- you just tap your card wherever you get on a train and tap again when you get off. Why should it matter where, or how far, you are travelling? I expect I'm missing all sorts of obvious reasons why it wouldn't work....

The Netherlands use an Oyster-like transit card that's valid on buses, trains, trams - across the whole country. Granted it's not Bank card contactless but it's a lot easier than here.

 

[Skiddaw]

The Netherlands use an Oyster-like transit card that's valid on buses, trains, trams - across the whole country. Granted it's not Bank card contactless but it's a lot easier than here.

That's the sort of thing I mean.

 

[AdamWW]

The Netherlands use an Oyster-like transit card that's valid on buses, trains, trams - across the whole country. Granted it's not Bank card contactless but it's a lot easier than here.

Actually they are now rolling out (and maybe have finished) contactless bank card acceptance in the Netherlands. It certainly works for trains now, and also on the one bus I caught there this year.

 

[Haywain]

The Netherlands use an Oyster-like transit card that's valid on buses, trains, trams - across the whole country. Granted it's not Bank card contactless but it's a lot easier than here.

The Netherlands is a lot smaller than Great Britain.

 

[AdamWW]

The Netherlands is a lot smaller than Great Britain.

And has a much simpler fares structure!

(With prices per kilometre that I don't think get anywhere like as high as ours can).

 

[Puffin3267]

The Netherlands is a lot smaller than Great Britain.

It is, about 20% of the size. But that should not make a difference surely? The principle should work..

 

[Haywain]

It is, about 20% of the size. But that should not make a difference surely? The principle should work..

Well, clearly the longest journeys are going to be much shorter in all of time, distance and price so that will make a big difference when it comes to considering maximum journey times and maximum fares.

 

[Puffin3267]

And has a much simpler fares structure!

(With prices per kilometre that I don't think get anywhere like as high as ours can).

Yes. So much easier to understand. One of my regular journeys is Amsterdam to Amersfoort, it's about E 13/ £11 each way regardless of time, about 50km/30 miles in a comfortable train.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Nov 2024 ==

Well, clearly the longest journeys are going to be much shorter in all of time, distance and price so that will make a big difference when it comes to considering maximum journey times and maximum fares.

Yes, but the thread is more about ease of ticketing rather than pricing, they have one "Oyster like (OV) " card that does the whole country, including metro/tram/bus, whereas we have many different fare structures, OV cards for different operators, time dependencies, restrictions, railcards etd. In NL it's not perfect, but i's much more straightforward than the UK.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Nov 2024 ==

Yes. So much easier to understand. One of my regular journeys is Amsterdam to Amersfoort, it's about E 13/ £11 each way regardless of time, about 50km/30 miles in a comfortable train.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Nov 2024 ==


Yes, but the thread is more about ease of ticketing rather than pricing, they have one "Oyster like (OV) " card that does the whole country, including metro/tram/bus, whereas we have many different fare structures, OV cards for different operators, time dependencies, restrictions, railcards etd. In NL it's not perfect, but i's much more straightforward than the UK.

*OV = key card, SWR card etc

 

[plugwash]

Yes, but the thread is more about ease of ticketing rather than pricing

Automatically charging someone a tenner because they missed a tap is perfectly acceptable, automatically charging someone who touches in at reading and doesn't touch out £30 is pushing it a bit, but most people who touch in at reading probablly do intend to travel to London.

On the other hand, automatically charging someone who touches in at Stockport in the morning rush hour £184 (the price of an anytime single to London) is not going to be acceptable, that is the fundamental problem with a nationwide PAYG scheme for the UK, incomplete journey fares high enough to discourage misuse on intercity travel would be unreasonably high when applied to local travellers.

 

[DailyCommuter]

Does anyone know whether there is a GWR policy/brief regarding the use of contactless on the diverted Euston services?

Yesterday it was only a few trains at the start and end of service that had Reading as a passenger call, so most of the day Contactless wouldn't have been valid.

However my mate used Contactless fine on one of the trains starting at Reading. The guard accepted without issue and staff at Euston directed where to tap out.

 

[londonbridge]

Why is it difficult for passengers to look at information published by the railway, listen to announcements, take not of signs on stations which indicate where Contactless can be used?

Because some people are lost in a world of nattering on their phones, listening to music/watching films, or checking social media rather than bothering to pay attention to announcements. And because some people simply aren’t bothered to read signs either.

 

[AdamWW]

Because some people are lost in a world of nattering on their phones, listening to music/watching films, or checking social media rather than bothering to pay attention to announcements. And because some people simply aren’t bothered to read signs either.

Or maybe for some of the valid reasons given above.

To which I'd add the fact that we're bombarded with announcements these days so it's not unreasonable that people might tune out sometimes.

 

[Watershed]

Yesterday it was only a few trains at the start and end of service that had Reading as a passenger call, so most of the day Contactless wouldn't have been valid.

However my mate used Contactless fine on one of the trains starting at Reading. The guard accepted without issue and staff at Euston directed where to tap out.

Cheers, that's how it should have been handled - for those trains that stopped at Reading - so I was somewhat surprised to read of the rejection. Just another rogue guard then!

 

[plugwash]

However my mate used Contactless fine on one of the trains starting at Reading. The guard accepted without issue and staff at Euston directed where to tap out.

Out of interest what were they charged? was a special rule added to charge them a Reading to London fare or were they charged a mixed-mode fare (since normally all routes from Reading to Euston would involve the underground)

 

[Tetchytyke]

Why is it difficult for passengers to look at information published by the railway, listen to announcements, take not of signs on stations which indicate where Contactless can be used?

Just to come back to this, it seems that TfL's map of Contactless is no longer accurate. Contactless is, apparently, now available at places like Windsor & Eton Central yet this is not shown on the current version of the TfL map.

No wonder people get confused!

 

[Edvid]

Contactless is, apparently, now available at places like Windsor & Eton Central yet this is not shown on the current version of the TfL map.

It is shown, but only as an extension arrow marked "towards [Station]" within the shaded area. Screenshot below, with an arrow (for Newbury / Didcot Parkway) outside the shaded area for comparison:

Worth noting the Rail & Tube services map (last updated April 2024) is already quite the behemoth as it is, which - despite the passenger expectation that all applicable stations be shown - must be why the latest extensions are represented by arrows.

Note - the recent contactless expansion to High Wycombe isn't shown. The other 47 Oval (Phase 1) stations were set to follow relatively shortly, so I suspect all those extensions would have featured in the next update. And then came the cyber attack...