Flangle045
Member
I was accosted by the ticket collector on the northern rail train from Pudsey to Leeds. The collector asked for my ticket but I accidentally bought a ticket for the wrong day (next day). The woman gave me an opportunity to buy a ticket on the app but it wouldn't work because I didn't have signal, so she decided instead to just fine me £50, which seems a bit unfair for a £4 ticket. I showed her my extensive daily history of buying tickets to prove it was just an honest mistake, but the ticket collector stonewalled my shaking, tearful defence, telling me I will just have to pay the fine... (100£ total but 50£ if paid before 21 days).
I used my right to appeal, submitted this on Penalty Services (Penalty issued by Northern). It goes:
Dear Northern Rail Customer Services,
" I am writing to appeal a penalty fare that I received on (DATE) while travelling from Pudsey to Leeds.
Unfortunately, I accidentally purchased a ticket for the wrong date on the Northern app — an honest mistake that I only realised when the ticket collector asked to see my ticket. I immediately attempted to purchase the correct ticket on the app but was unable to do so due to lack of mobile signal on the train. Despite explaining the situation and showing my extensive history of ticket purchases for this same route as evidence of my regular travel and intent to pay, the penalty fare was issued.
I fully understand the importance of travelling with a valid ticket, and I had every intention to do so — the error was entirely unintentional, and I attempted to resolve it there and then. I respectfully believe that being fined £50 for a genuine mistake on a £4 journey, when I was actively trying to purchase the correct ticket and have a consistent history of buying tickets properly, is disproportionate and unfair.
Please find attached:
Thank you for your time and understanding. I look forward to your response.
Kind regards, "
They replied this (also attached):
"Dear Ms X, To ensure fairness and consistency in the decision-making process, appeals are considered in conjunction with a code of practice. The statements submitted on behalf of the passenger and the train company will both be taken into account by an experienced assessor to determine the appeal outcome. More information about how appeals are decided is available on our homepage at www.penaltyservices.co.uk.
Many rail users consider penalty fares to be an accusation of fare avoidance but this is not the case at all. A Penalty Fare is simply a higher fare which may be issued under The Penalty Fares Rules and Regulations by a member of staff who is licensed to act on behalf of a train operating company which issues penalty fares. Penalty fare warning posters are on display at every penalty fares station (as required under Regulation 8) advising customers of the consequences for boarding a penalty fares train without a valid ticket or other authority to travel in their possession.
The National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) advise that where the facility to buy a ticket exists prior to boarding, passengers should pay the correct fare for their entire journey before they travel and produce for inspection a valid ticket as evidence of their right to make a journey on the relevant train, otherwise they may be liable to pay a Penalty Fare Notice.
I understand it was thought the ticket produced for inspection was valid for the journey made, however, that isn’t the case I’m afraid.
It remains the passenger’s responsibility to confirm that their ticket is valid for their entire journey they intend making before boarding the train. This also involves checking the date of travel, that the proposed route between the stations recorded on the ticket is valid, and any other restrictions which may apply to the use of that ticket on the rail network.
As the ticket produced for inspection was not valid for the entire journey recorded on the penalty fare and the facility to check the validity of the ticket existed at the time of travel, regrettably it has been concluded by Penalty Services that the penalty fare should stand. It remains the passenger's responsibility to confirm that they have a ticket and that their ticket is valid for the entire journey they intend to make before boarding the train. This also involves checking the date of travel, that the proposed route between stations recorded on the ticket is valid, and any other restrictions which may apply to the use of that ticket on the rail network.
When a Penalty Fare Notice is issued, the amount of the penalty fare is £100.00 plus the price of the full single fare applicable. If paid before the end of the period of 21 days beginning with the day following the day on which the penalty fare is charged, the amount is £50.00 plus the price of the full single fare applicable. The full single fare applicable takes into account the age of the person in question, the day and time of the journey that person is making has made or intends to make and the train and route that person is using, has used or intends to use. Although your comments about the amount of the Penalty Fare have been noted, the amount of a Penalty Fare is set by the government, not by the rail operator.
Rest assured that Penalty Services is neither judge nor jury and we are not deciding anyone's innocence or guilt when judging appeals so your honesty is not under any scrutiny whatsoever. Similarly, because there is no onus on the train company to prove there was any intention to avoid payment of the correct fare before issuing a penalty fare, the discretion guidelines are not based on intent. Therefore, a passenger's willingness to buy a ticket after their journey had already begun would only have a bearing on their liability to pay a penalty fare if the facility to buy/extend a ticket did not exist at the origin/interchange station.
Train operating companies are not obliged to provide an app; they are obliged to ensure that it is possible to purchase a ticket prior to travel at the station. On this occasion, that facility did exist. In most instances when passengers have difficulty with the app, it is related to the fact that the apps are designed not to sell tickets for trains that are imminently departing (to avoid passengers missing trains). Whilst I don’t know if that was the issue on this occasion, it is something to bear in mind. Also, the National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) advise that where the facility to buy a ticket exists prior to boarding, passengers should pay the correct fare for their entire journey before they travel and produce for inspection a valid ticket as evidence of their right to make a journey on the relevant train, otherwise they may be liable to pay a Penalty Fare Notice. Tickets purchased after boarding are not valid and cannot be considered.
Whether a rail user is sold a ticket on board the train can depend upon many things, such as where they boarded, whether the train company issues penalty fares at all, and the role of the member of staff. Some conductors or guards are not authorised to issue penalty fares and they may check and sell tickets in transit; however, revenue inspectors are licensed to penalise passengers found to be present on the train without a valid ticket. These members of staff are only obliged to sell tickets in the circumstances set out in the discretion guidelines used by the train operator.
The conductor or guard should only be used as the first viable retail option where the facility to obtain a ticket or other authority to travel did not exist at the origin station, or where the facilities provided were not working properly, or where the queueing standards were breached by the train company.
Please note that Penalty Services is an independent appeals assessment body and carries out no other roles in the penalty fare process. When assessing an appeal, our primary concern is to understand if the penalty fare was issued in accordance with the rules and regulations in place. Penalty Services are bound to assess appeals using the code of practice which does not allow for removal or reduction of a PFN purely due to compassionate / financial reasons given by the appellant nor as a goodwill gesture for a first offence.
Having taken into consideration all the points raised to date, we regret to advise that your appeal has been unsuccessful. It is your right to re-appeal this decision. Any further appeal will be considered by a different appeal assessor. If re-appealing, please give the reason(s) why you are appealing against this decision and also mention any additional circumstances you would like taken into account. A further appeal should be submitted by post to: Penalty Services, 12 Deben Mill Business Centre, Old Maltings Approach, Woodbridge, IP12 1BL. or through our website at www.penaltyservices.co.uk/make-an-appeal/ within 14 days of the date this letter was received.
If you choose not to re-appeal and have not already paid your Penalty Fare Notice, you should pay any outstanding debt. Failure to pay can mean that the time allowed to pay the reduced amount for the Penalty Fare can run out making the amount of the Penalty Fare £100 plus the price of the full single fare applicable and further delays in payment may result in administration fees being added by the train company or its debt recovery agency.
Please also be aware that if you do not re-appeal this decision or pay the penalty fare within 14 days of the date this letter was received, the train operating company will be entitled to commence court proceedings to recover the penalty fare. Where this reply came by post to your address, the date received is assumed to be the second working day after the letter/post date as defined in paragraph 3 of schedule 2 of The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 as amended from time to time. Where you have been informed by email reply, the date received is the letter date.
"
I hear that apparently they barely even look at the first 2 appeals and I should re-submit until the 3rd appeal... Is there anything I can add so that my appeal is considered and won?
Thanks for the help.
I used my right to appeal, submitted this on Penalty Services (Penalty issued by Northern). It goes:
Dear Northern Rail Customer Services,
" I am writing to appeal a penalty fare that I received on (DATE) while travelling from Pudsey to Leeds.
Unfortunately, I accidentally purchased a ticket for the wrong date on the Northern app — an honest mistake that I only realised when the ticket collector asked to see my ticket. I immediately attempted to purchase the correct ticket on the app but was unable to do so due to lack of mobile signal on the train. Despite explaining the situation and showing my extensive history of ticket purchases for this same route as evidence of my regular travel and intent to pay, the penalty fare was issued.
I fully understand the importance of travelling with a valid ticket, and I had every intention to do so — the error was entirely unintentional, and I attempted to resolve it there and then. I respectfully believe that being fined £50 for a genuine mistake on a £4 journey, when I was actively trying to purchase the correct ticket and have a consistent history of buying tickets properly, is disproportionate and unfair.
Please find attached:
- A screenshot of the incorrectly dated ticket.
- Screenshots of recent Northern tickets showing my usual travel pattern.
- Any additional evidence you may require.
Thank you for your time and understanding. I look forward to your response.
Kind regards, "
They replied this (also attached):
"Dear Ms X, To ensure fairness and consistency in the decision-making process, appeals are considered in conjunction with a code of practice. The statements submitted on behalf of the passenger and the train company will both be taken into account by an experienced assessor to determine the appeal outcome. More information about how appeals are decided is available on our homepage at www.penaltyservices.co.uk.
Many rail users consider penalty fares to be an accusation of fare avoidance but this is not the case at all. A Penalty Fare is simply a higher fare which may be issued under The Penalty Fares Rules and Regulations by a member of staff who is licensed to act on behalf of a train operating company which issues penalty fares. Penalty fare warning posters are on display at every penalty fares station (as required under Regulation 8) advising customers of the consequences for boarding a penalty fares train without a valid ticket or other authority to travel in their possession.
The National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) advise that where the facility to buy a ticket exists prior to boarding, passengers should pay the correct fare for their entire journey before they travel and produce for inspection a valid ticket as evidence of their right to make a journey on the relevant train, otherwise they may be liable to pay a Penalty Fare Notice.
I understand it was thought the ticket produced for inspection was valid for the journey made, however, that isn’t the case I’m afraid.
It remains the passenger’s responsibility to confirm that their ticket is valid for their entire journey they intend making before boarding the train. This also involves checking the date of travel, that the proposed route between the stations recorded on the ticket is valid, and any other restrictions which may apply to the use of that ticket on the rail network.
As the ticket produced for inspection was not valid for the entire journey recorded on the penalty fare and the facility to check the validity of the ticket existed at the time of travel, regrettably it has been concluded by Penalty Services that the penalty fare should stand. It remains the passenger's responsibility to confirm that they have a ticket and that their ticket is valid for the entire journey they intend to make before boarding the train. This also involves checking the date of travel, that the proposed route between stations recorded on the ticket is valid, and any other restrictions which may apply to the use of that ticket on the rail network.
When a Penalty Fare Notice is issued, the amount of the penalty fare is £100.00 plus the price of the full single fare applicable. If paid before the end of the period of 21 days beginning with the day following the day on which the penalty fare is charged, the amount is £50.00 plus the price of the full single fare applicable. The full single fare applicable takes into account the age of the person in question, the day and time of the journey that person is making has made or intends to make and the train and route that person is using, has used or intends to use. Although your comments about the amount of the Penalty Fare have been noted, the amount of a Penalty Fare is set by the government, not by the rail operator.
Rest assured that Penalty Services is neither judge nor jury and we are not deciding anyone's innocence or guilt when judging appeals so your honesty is not under any scrutiny whatsoever. Similarly, because there is no onus on the train company to prove there was any intention to avoid payment of the correct fare before issuing a penalty fare, the discretion guidelines are not based on intent. Therefore, a passenger's willingness to buy a ticket after their journey had already begun would only have a bearing on their liability to pay a penalty fare if the facility to buy/extend a ticket did not exist at the origin/interchange station.
Train operating companies are not obliged to provide an app; they are obliged to ensure that it is possible to purchase a ticket prior to travel at the station. On this occasion, that facility did exist. In most instances when passengers have difficulty with the app, it is related to the fact that the apps are designed not to sell tickets for trains that are imminently departing (to avoid passengers missing trains). Whilst I don’t know if that was the issue on this occasion, it is something to bear in mind. Also, the National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) advise that where the facility to buy a ticket exists prior to boarding, passengers should pay the correct fare for their entire journey before they travel and produce for inspection a valid ticket as evidence of their right to make a journey on the relevant train, otherwise they may be liable to pay a Penalty Fare Notice. Tickets purchased after boarding are not valid and cannot be considered.
Whether a rail user is sold a ticket on board the train can depend upon many things, such as where they boarded, whether the train company issues penalty fares at all, and the role of the member of staff. Some conductors or guards are not authorised to issue penalty fares and they may check and sell tickets in transit; however, revenue inspectors are licensed to penalise passengers found to be present on the train without a valid ticket. These members of staff are only obliged to sell tickets in the circumstances set out in the discretion guidelines used by the train operator.
The conductor or guard should only be used as the first viable retail option where the facility to obtain a ticket or other authority to travel did not exist at the origin station, or where the facilities provided were not working properly, or where the queueing standards were breached by the train company.
Please note that Penalty Services is an independent appeals assessment body and carries out no other roles in the penalty fare process. When assessing an appeal, our primary concern is to understand if the penalty fare was issued in accordance with the rules and regulations in place. Penalty Services are bound to assess appeals using the code of practice which does not allow for removal or reduction of a PFN purely due to compassionate / financial reasons given by the appellant nor as a goodwill gesture for a first offence.
Having taken into consideration all the points raised to date, we regret to advise that your appeal has been unsuccessful. It is your right to re-appeal this decision. Any further appeal will be considered by a different appeal assessor. If re-appealing, please give the reason(s) why you are appealing against this decision and also mention any additional circumstances you would like taken into account. A further appeal should be submitted by post to: Penalty Services, 12 Deben Mill Business Centre, Old Maltings Approach, Woodbridge, IP12 1BL. or through our website at www.penaltyservices.co.uk/make-an-appeal/ within 14 days of the date this letter was received.
If you choose not to re-appeal and have not already paid your Penalty Fare Notice, you should pay any outstanding debt. Failure to pay can mean that the time allowed to pay the reduced amount for the Penalty Fare can run out making the amount of the Penalty Fare £100 plus the price of the full single fare applicable and further delays in payment may result in administration fees being added by the train company or its debt recovery agency.
Please also be aware that if you do not re-appeal this decision or pay the penalty fare within 14 days of the date this letter was received, the train operating company will be entitled to commence court proceedings to recover the penalty fare. Where this reply came by post to your address, the date received is assumed to be the second working day after the letter/post date as defined in paragraph 3 of schedule 2 of The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 as amended from time to time. Where you have been informed by email reply, the date received is the letter date.
"
I hear that apparently they barely even look at the first 2 appeals and I should re-submit until the 3rd appeal... Is there anything I can add so that my appeal is considered and won?
Thanks for the help.
