Wrong routes

[DaveNewcastle]

I presume the wiring on the Up Normanton beyond Colton Junction is long enough for an electric doing 125mph and getting a right hand feather at Colton can stop before going off the end.

Is it?
I'll try to keep a look out for that, but I wouldn't be so sure. (okay, if its a routine EC '225' with the loco at the country end it stands more of a chance, but . . . . )

 

[O L Leigh]

Should a train become 'gapped' there are instructions for what to do, I don't sign electrics but I'm sure someone who does can explain what they should do - they used to be able to roll forwards, get permission to set back or reset the VCB on the loco/unit to restore power depending on the circumstances.

It's incredibly hard to "gap" an AC unit, but not impossible. What happens next depends on quite a lot of things, mostly how amenable the signaller is.

The problem is that time is of the essence. If you've got the pan on the dead wire then you have no power at all, and that means you have no power to run your compressor. Eventually the pressure will fall sufficiently low that you'll pop a Low Main Air Governer and you won't then get your brakes off. Declare yourself a failure and request assistance. Rolling out depends on there being a gradient and which way it slopes. If it's a rising gradient then you'd be rolling back, so you must have the signaller's permission.

If you're lucky you'll be inside the APC magnets but not quite on the dead wire. The only way to know is to attempt to reset the VCB and, if the line light comes back, get out to see which side of the dead wire you are. If you've already passed the dead wire you can be on your way, otherwise you might need to "set back" (changing ends first, natch) and have another run at it.

The last gapped unit I'm aware of caused a real problem because the neutral section was on a rising gradient just beyond a diverging junction and the signaller categorically refused to allow the train to "set back". Very quickly it ran out of air anyway and so it became a failure and required assistance. The one before that ended up gapped in a neutral on a dead level section of track.

O L Leigh

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Unless they're following a Salisbury-bound unit too close to get the flashing aspects, or if the signaller sets the route a bit late (although you'd hope they'd then be going slow enough to notice and stop on sighting the junction signal)!

But it is less error-prone since BARS - previously you had no idea you'd been wrong-routed until the junction signal came into view at which point you could be doing 85 or so in a good 442. It was always a good idea to check the signal aspects on the down slow as if they were showing green then you had a big clue that something was amiss.

I'm sure I heard a story of this actually happening once; a 442 ending up a considerable way off the juice past Worting Junction?

 

[pendolino]

Would a train taking a different line to the booked one, for example slow lines if booked fast, be considered a wrong route, and would drivers be expected to stop and challenge the routing?

Could be, yes. Something like a Tattenham Corner service out of London Bridge runs non-stop during the week to Norwood Jct via the down fast, but if the service calls at all stations between New Cross Gate and Norwood Jct (as on a Sunday), the train must be routed onto the slow as there are no platforms on the fast lines so you'd have a job stopping there (the up and down fast are between the up and down slow). You can take the down fast out of London Bridge but you must be crossed over to the slow (there are 3 places to do this before NXG) or you'll be making a very embarrassed PA announcement and call to the signaller. So taking the fast line could be a wrong route depending on the stopping pattern - emphasising the need for the driver to check his diagram carefully before leaving LBG!

Similarly, a service heading to Victoria could be routed onto the up fast at Balham or Selhurst, but you'd find it difficult to stop at Battersea Park as there's no platform on the up fast there. Battersea Park's 8 stops on from Selhurst, so the driver really needs to be switched on and thinking well ahead in order to challenge the route; if not, and he's booked to call at Battersea Park then he's taken a wrong route even though he can still get to his destination and he'll be in the doo-doo. (The signaller may well ask the driver to continue onto the fast, it's not unknown, in which case passengers usually have to continue into Victoria then take another train out again to Battersea Park).

 

[43167]

It's happened at least once in Edinburgh with a 318. It was routed into a West End bay at Edinburgh Waverley (ie, one of platforms 12-18). That wouldn't be a problem today, but back then those lines weren't electrified... There's a photo of it somewhere, but I'm struggling to find it at the moment.

In all reality, I'd imagine that such instances are few and far between. The combined knowledge of the driver and signaler should ensure that this doesn't happen.

Here were are: www.flickr.com/photos/93042849@N00/5549192567/

I have a photo of that.

 

[Rugd1022]

There are some locations where you become very wary of certain junction signals when you've been wrong routed in the past. One that springs to mind is Knighton Junction, just south of Leicester, I've brought my train to a stand there many times when the route is set for the road into Leicester when I should be going down the branch to Bardon Hill. Luckily it's a very long section leading up to it and it's possible to stop in time, even with a heavy train.

It may surprise some folk but there are junctions where you do not get 'brought down' with double and single yellows for a slower, diverging route... Aston is one, if you're working a southbound freight from the Bescot direction it's often greens all the way to the junction signal at the end of the platform which puts you round the 20mph towards Stetchford.... you really have to keep your wits about you here, not only could you be heading towards it at 45mph (if you're not on the ball that is), but if it's showing just a green aspect and no route indicator you and your 2,000 ton train could be heading towards New St in the rush hour....:roll:

 

[TDK]

Even at 110EPS? It's not the only time its happened either.

I wouldn't have thought he'd have to set back all the way to Crewe though, it could have shunted over at Acton Bridge on the GL, and then back over the crossover at the top of GL couldn't it?

Easily at 110EPS as with flashing yellows you have 3 signal sections to stop and at 110 a pendo or voayger with full service can stop easily in 1 or maybe 2 on a damp rail. If the train had to return it would only have to return to the junction signal not all the way to Crewe unless it was crossed over on to the up line.

 

[Tomnick]

Two signal sections, surely? Either way, the signal spacing must be such that a train could stop at the junction signal from linespeed at a steady double yellow (if the junction signal was maintained at Danger for whatever reason) - so, in answer to Pumbaa's question, yes.

 

[Olympian]

I've experienced a few "wrong routes" over the years but the only accidental one that I can think of was on a Virgin Pendolino coming into Glasgow about 2 years ago and being routed off the main line at Rutherglen towards Glasgow Central Low Level having already crossed several lines (fast to slow?). Driver stopped rather abruptly once he realised, with the front of the train about to enter Rutherglen station and the rest (including me in first class near the rear) still on the crossing and blocking some of the lines. After about 10 minutes he changed ends and we set back onto the main line and then changed ends again and resumed correct route into Glasgow Central High Level. Train Manager announced that there had been a "signalling error".

Two deliberate "wrong routes" were an Edinbugh to Birmingham Voyager last year where we went into Carstairs station and reversed due to a "technical problem" in the front cab coming out of Edinburgh.

The other one I recall from the mid-1980s was being on a King's Cross - Newcastle HST reversing back into the sidings at Peterborough where the rear power car was detatched and left behind due to the brakes dragging and it being reported as "on fire" going through Peterborough!

 

[Class2ldn]

Not quite. The nearest that ever happened was when the driver of a Eurostar (an ex Victoria man) came up the Chatham reversible and realised - too late - that the train was routed straight on to-wards Victoria rather than over the viaduct to-wards Waterloo. Stopped, changed ends, drove the train back clear, changed ends and carried on to Waterloo. Guess who got the bollocking?
That's right, the signalman at Victoria(E).
The juice rail nowadays carries on along the Salisbury road from Worting Junction for some way to allow for electrics being wrongly routed.

Mmm i drive up that route to vic and the junction is 35 and you can see by wandsworth road if the junction is set so dont know how he didnt have time to stop. Can be quite tricky around the stewarts ln area.

 

[Kneedown]

Apologies if this has been covered before. It's a longish thread to read now and my visits are fairly fleeting as of late.
Regarding who carries the can following an incident of a train taking a wrong route, it all depends on the system of signalling in place.
At Trent South for instance on the Down Fast line, there is a speed of 70mph through the junction and the only warning to the Driver of which way the route is set is when he sees the junction signal. By this time it is obviously too late to stop the train and so the Driver would not be at fault.
At other locations where say, flashing yellows or approach control are in place, the Driver has prior warning or is bringing his train to a stand for the red, and so if he takes the wrong route in those circumstances he may well have to shoulder some blame.
One location where wrong routing is not unusual is Ely, where upon changing ends you may be signalled on either the down or up line if you are heading to Norwich, but if heading to Nottingham you may only be signalled onto the down.
You really have to have your wits about you if heading towards Nottingham as it is not unusual for the signaller to clear the signals for the up line.

 

[trainplan1]

Was told about one on a visit to Ashford IECC couple of years ago.

Back when Eurostar were still running out of Waterloo a Belgium bound set approached Paddock Wood from London and was signalled into the station loop then onto the Medway valley line!

The eurostar driver who was Belgian too was quick to stop in the platform and ring the signaller and spoke in fairly clear english that he was not going down that route! Turns out that it was something bizzare to do with the data that filtered down to the auto route setting had decided to think the eurostar was a special freight to Hoo yard!

 

[GB]

Apologies if this has been covered before. It's a longish thread to read now and my visits are fairly fleeting as of late.
Regarding who carries the can following an incident of a train taking a wrong route, it all depends on the system of signalling in place.
At Trent South for instance on the Down Fast line, there is a speed of 70mph through the junction and the only warning to the Driver of which way the route is set is when he sees the junction signal. By this time it is obviously too late to stop the train and so the Driver would not be at fault.
At other locations where say, flashing yellows or approach control are in place, the Driver has prior warning or is bringing his train to a stand for the red, and so if he takes the wrong route in those circumstances he may well have to shoulder some blame.
One location where wrong routing is not unusual is Ely, where upon changing ends you may be signalled on either the down or up line if you are heading to Norwich, but if heading to Nottingham you may only be signalled onto the down.
You really have to have your wits about you if heading towards Nottingham as it is not unusual for the signaller to clear the signals for the up line.

The general rule is that if a wrong route is offered and accepted then the delays get split 50/50 between Network Rail and the TOC/FOC. As you say tho, there are circumstances where its out of the drivers control and providing he has made a suitable effort to stop then it should just go down to Network Rail. Likewise if a wrong route is set but the driver challenges it it will go 100% to Network Rail.

As to what happens to the signaller it depends on the circumstances. If its just a standard wrong routing then its usually just fill out a form which is then fowarded to control. If a signaller has too many wrong routings in a specified time frame then its onto poor performance and a chat with the LOM.

A wrong routing into an isolated/dead section will usually see the signaller being med screened.

Wrong routings are taken VERY seriously at Network Rail and each one is recorded.

On the wrong routings front, an interesting situation can occur when a service is booked to stand in a loop, generally to allow another train to pass. For example some FGW local stopping services are booked to pull into the down loop at Yatton for five minutes or so whilst a Voyager shoots past. If the passing service is heavily delayed or cancelled, then the local train will usually be routed straight along the main line. This route is generally accepted by the Traincrew with no quibble, as it is a pretty common occurence, even though strictly speaking it is off-diagram.

That wouldn't usually be considered a "wrong routing" as such unless there are/were other factors at play.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Re Colton jn

Is it?
I'll try to keep a look out for that, but I wouldn't be so sure. (okay, if its a routine EC '225' with the loco at the country t stands more of a chance, but . . . . )

definitely not. The OHLE ends inches from the crossover.

 

[strange6]

There are some locations where you become very wary of certain junction signals when you've been wrong routed in the past. One that springs to mind is Knighton Junction, just south of Leicester, I've brought my train to a stand there many times when the route is set for the road into Leicester when I should be going down the branch to Bardon Hill. Luckily it's a very long section leading up to it and it's possible to stop in time, even with a heavy train.

It may surprise some folk but there are junctions where you do not get 'brought down' with double and single yellows for a slower, diverging route... Aston is one, if you're working a southbound freight from the Bescot direction it's often greens all the way to the junction signal at the end of the platform which puts you round the 20mph towards Stetchford.... you really have to keep your wits about you here, not only could you be heading towards it at 45mph (if you're not on the ball that is), but if it's showing just a green aspect and no route indicator you and your 2,000 ton train could be heading towards New St in the rush hour....:roll:

Surely they have at least a triangular speed restriction warning sign on the approach to the junction?

 

[Yew]

I only glimpsed through the thread and so I didn't see it was ECS trips I suppose it doesn't matter then.

Another excellent answer driver9000 since you have included in your response something I have always thought about when looking at rails - and that's the amount of rust on the not frequently used tracks. I always did wonder why they were not made more use of, just to keep them in shape, so to speak. Now I know the signallers think this way too so thanks for that. Another piece of superb rail education from you.

Aha, There is a fairly long section of old track alongside one of my usual routes, and if i remember, it is all modern track for a fair way, then you see some points to reconnect it, and you see some old clackity clack with a tree growing between the rails

some goods sidings near worksop with trees in them too!

 

[TDK]

Apologies if this has been covered before. It's a longish thread to read now and my visits are fairly fleeting as of late.
Regarding who carries the can following an incident of a train taking a wrong route, it all depends on the system of signalling in place.
At Trent South for instance on the Down Fast line, there is a speed of 70mph through the junction and the only warning to the Driver of which way the route is set is when he sees the junction signal. By this time it is obviously too late to stop the train and so the Driver would not be at fault.
At other locations where say, flashing yellows or approach control are in place, the Driver has prior warning or is bringing his train to a stand for the red, and so if he takes the wrong route in those circumstances he may well have to shoulder some blame.
One location where wrong routing is not unusual is Ely, where upon changing ends you may be signalled on either the down or up line if you are heading to Norwich, but if heading to Nottingham you may only be signalled onto the down.
You really have to have your wits about you if heading towards Nottingham as it is not unusual for the signaller to clear the signals for the up line.

There are now PRI (proving route indicator) signals to warn drivers of the route set, the locations I can think of where I have seen these is Birmingham International, Coventry, Rugby and Aynho Junction. They are theatre type boxes that can display arrows to show the driver what route is set.

 

[Railsigns]

There are now PRI (proving route indicator) signals to warn drivers of the route set

The "P" stands for "Preliminary".

 

[Rugd1022]

Surely they have at least a triangular speed restriction warning sign on the approach to the junction?

You'd be surprised how many of them don't...!

 

[Hydro]

Would a train taking a different line to the booked one, for example slow lines if booked fast, be considered a wrong route, and would drivers be expected to stop and challenge the routing?

For test trains, this is an SOP. Any deviation from booked route must be challenged when testing to ensure the correct lines are tested. This is why the trains carry "Q" reporting codes, to ensure the signalman knows not to divert the train unless with prior agreement. It doesn't always work.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

Eurostar incident:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2012223.stm

Would have taken sometime to 'reverse' no doubt, unless the TM drove it backwards (since they did share drivers jobs)

 

[moggie]

Surely they have at least a triangular speed restriction warning sign on the approach to the junction?

Not necessarily - it depends on the speed differential bewteen the approach speed and diverging route - the criteria laid down in Railway Group Standards.

In so far as the Aston arrangement is concerned, if i recall from past experience here there is a lower permanent speed restriction through the platform limiting the speed differential to the diverging route to 10 mph or less hence why there is no approach control on the junction signal. I agree this must make it difficult to detect a wrong routing on the approach to this signal.

As observed in other commentry the use of PRI's have recently been authorised where the diverging junction and straight on routes are the same speed or no greater than 10mph speed differential and where the normal approach speed may prevent a driver bringing their train to a stop on the approach to the junction signal in the event of wrong route set.

 

[Old Timer]

It may surprise some folk but there are junctions where you do not get 'brought down' with double and single yellows for a slower, diverging route... Aston is one, if you're working a southbound freight from the Bescot direction it's often greens all the way to the junction signal at the end of the platform which puts you round the 20mph towards Stetchford.... you really have to keep your wits about you here, not only could you be heading towards it at 45mph (if you're not on the ball that is), but if it's showing just a green aspect and no route indicator you and your 2,000 ton train could be heading towards New St in the rush hour....:roll:

I used to work New St PSB, many, many moons ago.

The Grand Junction line is actually the physical through route, and the junctions are towards Lichfield and Stechford respectively.

As I recall the 45 mph applies until you are clear of the junction, and in any case the PSR is for signal spacing rather than track condition.

Aston South Jct is a "special" as far as approach release is concerned because of the physical layout of the junction, i.e. the turnout being towards New St. I really must try and find my locking controls book to remind myself of the release arrangements, although things may have changed in the last 30 years.

 

[ChrisCooper]

Does Trent have PRIs now that it's been resignalled? Would be very surprised if not considering it's an impossible one to stop at in the event of a wrong route.

 

[Rugd1022]

I used to work New St PSB, many, many moons ago.

The Grand Junction line is actually the physical through route, and the junctions are towards Lichfield and Stechford respectively.

As I recall the 45 mph applies until you are clear of the junction, and in any case the PSR is for signal spacing rather than track condition.

Aston South Jct is a "special" as far as approach release is concerned because of the physical layout of the junction, i.e. the turnout being towards New St. I really must try and find my locking controls book to remind myself of the release arrangements, although things may have changed in the last 30 years.

Thanks for that Old Timer, very illuminating. The 20mph PSR at Aston South is not one you want to ignore I can assure you, the curvature is very tight and changes direction when it goes up to 30mph, just round the corner! With a long heavy train on I usually keep it at 20 until I'm well onto the straight heading towards Washwood Heath as the rear of the train will still be on the junction. By the time I've got it up to 45 a bit further on, it's time to brake for the 30 at Stetchford anyway.

 

[Old Timer]

Thanks for that Old Timer, very illuminating. The 20mph PSR at Aston South is not one you want to ignore I can assure you, the curvature is very tight and changes direction when it goes up to 30mph, just round the corner! With a long heavy train on I usually keep it at 20 until I'm well onto the straight heading towards Washwood Heath as the rear of the train will still be on the junction. By the time I've got it up to 45 a bit further on, it's time to brake for the 30 at Stetchford anyway.

Unfortunately it is not the best laid out of Junctions I agree. It is all to do with the fact that the original alignment was towards New St.

Amusing thing is on the panel the Stechford - Bescot section is "straight" !

If you ever want to go visit New St PSB by the way, send me a PM

 

[O L Leigh]

If you ever want to go visit New St PSB by the way, send me a PM

*Watches as Old Timer's PM inbox bursts its limits*

O L Leigh

 

[d1015fan]

i'm sure this has probably already been mentioned. FGW sleeper last year routed to go down the Berks and Hants from reading instead of the booked via Swindon. Driver took the route and got as far a Lavington before some realised there were engineering works. loco needed to be ran round and routed back via Reading West Curve

 

[Minilad]

*Watches as Old Timer's PM inbox bursts its limits*

O L Leigh

Judging on the amount of time it takes to get into the black hole I think most of the current bobbies there must all be showing people around

 

[Rugd1022]

Unfortunately it is not the best laid out of Junctions I agree. It is all to do with the fact that the original alignment was towards New St.

Amusing thing is on the panel the Stechford - Bescot section is "straight" !

If you ever want to go visit New St PSB by the way, send me a PM

Many thanks OT, I may just take you up on that very kind offer

I sign New Street but don't get there as much as I used to, usually it's when conducting the dreaded railgrinders..... spent a whole shift grinding the points inside the south end tunnels a few months back!