Wrong routes

[JoeGJ1984]

Have trains ever taken wrong routes due to an error by the signaller? I've heard of it on London Underground where it is referred to at getting the 'Wrong Stick' (has happened before) - has it happened on mainline services? I imagine it must be complicated to sort out.

And what if by taking the wrong route, an electric train could end up on a non-electrified section (has this ever happened?). How would they sort that out?

 

[Ferret]

Have trains ever taken wrong routes due to an error by the signaller? I've heard of it on London Underground where it is referred to at getting the 'Wrong Stick' (has happened before) - has it happened on mainline services? I imagine it must be complicated to sort out.

And what if by taking the wrong route, an electric train could end up on a non-electrified section (has this ever happened?). How would they sort that out?

It happens more often than you'd think! HST into platformk 3 at Sheffield last week was a particular lowlight in the annals of foul ups!

 

[IanPooleTrains]

I don't know if this really counts but coming back home from New Street, the driver kinda forgot that he had to go out the same way he came in and almost mashed the front of a turbostar on a 323 that was stationary.

Kinda hard to miss that with the lights on!

 

[LexyBoy]

I recall a Eurostar being sent into Victoria on one occasion (I believe passengers were allowed to disembark and sent in taxis to Waterloo, might be wrong though), and I've heard of Oxford trains missing the junction off the GWML and being sent back through Didcot.

Freight can be especially tricky as it can only be reversed by adding a loco to the rear, or (very slowly) backing out with someone at the rear of the train in radio contact with the driver.

I've noticed that electrification sometimes continues a little way beyond the end of the electrified line, which I'd assumed was to accommodate such mistakes. For example, the wires continue along the GWML past Heathrow Junction - further on the mains than the reliefs.

 

[swt_passenger]

.

And what if by taking the wrong route, an electric train could end up on a non-electrified section (has this ever happened?). How would they sort that out?

By taking into account the speeds possibly involved and extending the electrification along the 'wrong route'. There's an example of this where the Salisbury line branches off the third rail route to Southampton, there's a length of third rail on the down line beyond the junction which is supposed to be long enough for a mistakenly routed EMU to brake and stay on the juice.

If an electric unit took the route and went off the third rail they'd hope another train could reach it, then couple up and pull it back onto the juice. Of course it shouldn't be too easy for an EMU driver to take the wrong route in my example, as they get stacks of notice for it being set - the flashing aspects can be seen when in the platform at Basingstoke.

 

[RPM]

It happens from time to time. As a driver you have to be aware of potential wrong routing. If you take the wrong route then you could be in as much trouble as the signaller.

 

[ChrisCooper]

I've been wrong routes twice, both on railtours. Once the driver noticed and we stopped and had to wait for the route to be re-set, the other time they did not notice intime and we had to backup (thankfully it was an EMU).

 

[sprinterguy]

A Liverpool bound Pendolino was incorrectly signalled towards Preston at Weaver Junction quite recently, and had to retrace it’s steps a bit to regain the correct route once the driver had brought the train to a stand. Going back a couple more years, a Crosscountry HST was once sent into Ferrybridge Power Station due to a signalling error.

In the case of electric trains overstepping the limit of electrification, the loco or unit would have to be dragged back onto the wires by a loco or compatible diesel unit. I don’t know for sure but I don’t think that a dewirement like that is at all healthy for the pantograph or the catenary (It would be a different set of circumstances on third rail territory). In examples I’ve seen, a non-electrified route diverging from an electrified one may have protective measures installed to mitigate against such an eventuality: On the Tyne and Wear Metro extension, where the electrified shared section of route leaves the Network Rail line to rejoin the Metro network approaching Pelaw, the two signals in advance of the divergence employ flashing double yellow and yellow aspects to show Metro drivers that the route is correctly set for the electrified line and not for the unelectrified Network rail route.

The signal posts at the west end of the platforms at Newcastle central station also carry reminder notices with words to the effect of “Electric trains: No access to Forth Sidings”, which is adequate for the low speed shunt moves that would be made between the platforms and the sidings (which are the remaining, unelectrified, stub end of the north bank of the Tyne route through Wylam).

As RPM says, a drivers’ route knowledge would cover knowing if something was amiss when driving an electric train approaching a signal displaying an aspect for a diverging unelectrified route ahead (Or just a wrong route being signalled generally): I’ve been on a Sunderland bound Metro before approaching Brockley Whins with the “feather” for the unelectrified Tyne Dock branch lit: The driver had to stop and have a word with the signaller; the problem was actually down to a signal failure rather than signaller error though.

 

[Aictos]

There's been a few times I know that the Kings Cross to Kings Lynn service has been routed towards Norwich, the point being that EMUs are used on the Kings Lynns and the Norwich line is electrified.

Wouldn't matter so much if they had electrified it when they did the Kings Lynn line....

 

[seagull]

I particularly like this 'wrong route' account (particularly if it's true):

"On one celebrated occasion, a Piccadilly line driver accepted a wrong route and took his train round to Ealing Broadway. Once there, he went through the usual procedure of phoning the signalman to get the route back, quickly changed ends and took the train back to Ealing Common, where his unlucky passengers were advised to cross back to the westbound side and wait for the next Piccadilly train to Rayners Lane. And so they did, but this train also got "the wrong stick" and the driver also accepted it and took the same lot of passengers round to Ealing Broadway again. They were not a happy band of passengers."

(taken from http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/unstories.htm)

 

[The Barlow Boy]

I recall a Eurostar being sent into Victoria on one occasion (I believe passengers were allowed to disembark and sent in taxis to Waterloo, might be wrong though), and I've heard of Oxford trains missing the junction off the GWML and being sent back through Didcot.

Freight can be especially tricky as it can only be reversed by adding a loco to the rear, or (very slowly) backing out with someone at the rear of the train in radio contact with the driver.

I've noticed that electrification sometimes continues a little way beyond the end of the electrified line, which I'd assumed was to accommodate such mistakes. For example, the wires continue along the GWML past Heathrow Junction - further on the mains than the reliefs.

Not quite. The nearest that ever happened was when the driver of a Eurostar (an ex Victoria man) came up the Chatham reversible and realised - too late - that the train was routed straight on to-wards Victoria rather than over the viaduct to-wards Waterloo. Stopped, changed ends, drove the train back clear, changed ends and carried on to Waterloo. Guess who got the bollocking?
That's right, the signalman at Victoria(E).
The juice rail nowadays carries on along the Salisbury road from Worting Junction for some way to allow for electrics being wrongly routed.

 

[Geezertronic]

Was on a 390 that got sent down the Trent Valley at Rugby instead of towards Coventry on a EUS-BHM train last year. Driver noticed and stopped (was not going line speed), had to reverse back into Rugby Platform 2 before continuing the correct route.

 

[dk1]

Was on a 390 that got sent down the Trent Valley at Rugby instead of towards Coventry on a EUS-BHM train last year. Driver noticed and stopped (was not going line speed), had to reverse back into Rugby Platform 2 before continuing the correct route.

Reverse!! He changed ends i would hope

 

[Oracle]

There is 4th rail into the Up (Southbound) platform at Kilburn High Road to a) allow 'wrong stick' Bakerloo trains to reverse back over the crossoiver, and b) to allow reversals during engineering work. There is also 4th rail for a train's length on the (Up?) line past Gunnersbury towards Bollo Lane for the same purposes. And I think a District train taking a 'wrong stick' has happened there before!

In the past we all know that the late, great, District Dave has accepted the signal at Hanger Lane Junction ahd headed towards North Ealing! As the crossover at N.E. was taken out around 1974 District trains have to go to South Harrow or Rayners Lane to reverse...back to Acton Town to meet 'The Boss'.

 

[ChrisCooper]

Of cource some wrong routes are easier to miss than others, depending on line speed, complexity and how normal the wrong route is (a driver would more easily notice a wrong route onto a line they would never normally use than one onto a line they often use). High speed Y junctions must be worst, as drivers would have no chance of stopping on seeing the wrong route, even if they realised straight away. Where there are a considerable number of possible routes, some of which are right and some are wrong, remembering which are which in the short time between seeing the junction indicator and passing the point of no return (i.e where even emergency braking would put the train past the junction signal) is also a problem. Large stations can be bad for that, drivers forgetting (at least until it's too late) that the platform they are routed too doesn't give access to the route they need out of the station. Even worse in cases like that, the train might be terminating so the driver might not see the problem with the platform they are given, yet it means the train is wrongly positioned for it's next working.

There are systems in place to prevent major errors. London Underground for example has systems to prevent full size trains being routed into tube tunnels (mercury filled glass tubes suspended around the tube stock loading gauge which if broken cause the signal to go to danger and the trainstop to rise). Some, shorter than normal platforms at stations (particularly bays) or permissive platforms have track circuits arranged to detect the length of approaching trains and in the case of permissive platforms, the train already in the platform. This prevents too long trains being routed in and blocking the station throat, and in the case of permissive platforms also make sure the other train is positioned far enough down so that the approaching train will fit. In cases like that it might not even be the signallers mistake, as they might have incorrect information on the length of the train, especially if a train is longer than normal for some reason.

 

[Smethwickian]

On Saturday afternoon (march 19) I was on board the 1627 XC service from Manchester Piccadilly, heading towards Birmingham New Street. The service came to a stand for some time between Smethwick Rolfe Street and Soho Junction. The train manager announced a lineside fire, then signal failure, meaning a diversion via Aston.

However when the train (eventually) crawled off along the line through Handsworth Wood, instead of taking the curve south again towards Perry Barr, it carried on and came to another stand near Bescot yard.

After another wait -- during which time another perplexed member of XC staff came through the train on her mobile, answering most passengers' queries with "I haven't got a clue either, I'm trying to find out...." -- the train reversed and headed back via the Grand Junction and Aston, eventually arriving BHM about 98 minutes late.

I'm convinced that amid the chaos that was obviously ensuing on the side of New Street, we'd been signalled the wrong way, but the member of staff said "no, that's just what we had to do". Anyone know any different?

Overall, by the way, very little information was given, no advice about connections or delay compensation - and no mention of XC's passenger charter prkmise of free water or soft drinks if a delay exceeds one hour (although how that's fulfilled now with only a tiny trolley, I really wouldn't know). Not a good handling of the situation at all by XC.

 

[DarloRich]

once (in my spotting days 20+ years ago) as a youngster i was at Darlo station and saw a 56 hauled coal train pull into the up good loop. It was then signaled onto the down saltburn, the train drew forward about 100 yards onto the curve towards eaglescliffe and stopped. The driver got out walked to the SPT and had a loud discussion, using industrial language, with the signaller about how he had set the wrong route and what kind of an incompetnant he was. The driver then said he would set back into the loop. This he did. The signal did not change, there was another even more heated discusion via the SPT, leading to the driver turning the loco off and crossing the track onto the station and walking off!

I also, recenlty, saw a coal trian at Northallerton get signalled form the down main to down Eaglescliffe via the high junction. The driver stopped at the end of the platform, used the SPT and refused to go via the coast to newcastle as his orders told him to go ECML to tyne yard. He simply refused until he was given that route! I think the signaller gave in as he was blocking the ECML! I couldnt belieive it. Again he said he didnt know the coast route and couldnt take his train that way.

 

[Pumbaa]

Wrong routes (off the docket) can also be the signaller trying to keep the job going, particularly when there are multiple routes. A common one is in the Glasgow area, the VT services will get sent 'wrong route' to keep the job flowing smoothly. A time ago, they had to stop if given that route and challenge the signaller but now they are to just accept it.

Another one is Manchester - Wigan on early/late turns, late nights over the TPE and deviating from booked route on ECS turns, where bizarre routings are taken to keep driver knowledge up etc.

Oh and running via Norton Bridge rather than taking the road at Colwich is a possibility for Manchester 390s, cows on the line and all that.

 

[O L Leigh]

Well, you can't take a route you don't "sign".

There's been a few times I know that the Kings Cross to Kings Lynn service has been routed towards Norwich, the point being that EMUs are used on the Kings Lynns and the Norwich line is electrified.

I believe there was an occasion when one took a left towards PBO by mistake and stopped beyond the end of the wires. It had gone so far that they ended up emptying Cambridge CS of units just to have enough to reach it.

O L Leigh

 

[DarloRich]

Well, you can't take a route you don't "sign".



I believe there was an occasion when one took a left towards PBO by mistake and stopped beyond the end of the wires. It had gone so far that they ended up emptying Cambridge CS of units just to have enough to reach it.

O L Leigh

I quiote agree - i was just shocked that it took a driver stopping his train on the main line and having a debate with a signal man to make the poin that he couldnt go that way

 

[talltim]

It happens more often than you'd think! HST into platformk 3 at Sheffield last week was a particular lowlight in the annals of foul ups!

Damn, missed that

 

[Ferret]

On Saturday afternoon (march 19) I was on board the 1627 XC service from Manchester Piccadilly, heading towards Birmingham New Street. The service came to a stand for some time between Smethwick Rolfe Street and Soho Junction. The train manager announced a lineside fire, then signal failure, meaning a diversion via Aston.

However when the train (eventually) crawled off along the line through Handsworth Wood, instead of taking the curve south again towards Perry Barr, it carried on and came to another stand near Bescot yard.

After another wait -- during which time another perplexed member of XC staff came through the train on her mobile, answering most passengers' queries with "I haven't got a clue either, I'm trying to find out...." -- the train reversed and headed back via the Grand Junction and Aston, eventually arriving BHM about 98 minutes late.

I'm convinced that amid the chaos that was obviously ensuing on the side of New Street, we'd been signalled the wrong way, but the member of staff said "no, that's just what we had to do". Anyone know any different?

Overall, by the way, very little information was given, no advice about connections or delay compensation - and no mention of XC's passenger charter prkmise of free water or soft drinks if a delay exceeds one hour (although how that's fulfilled now with only a tiny trolley, I really wouldn't know). Not a good handling of the situation at all by XC.

Hmmmm, there was a points failure at Aston on Saturday that compounded the farce at Soho, so rather than a wrong-route, I suspect it was all down to that.

 

[Firestarter]

Speaking of electric trains going unto non electric routes slightly different topic but I know off a couple of occasions last year (FCC TL) when drivers forgot to bring their pans down when at Farringdon or City Thameslink so they can use the 3rd rail at Blackfriars and beyond messing up the service for a good 2-3 hours at least.

 

[ChrisCooper]

Would a train taking a different line to the booked one, for example slow lines if booked fast, be considered a wrong route, and would drivers be expected to stop and challenge the routing? Would it also vary depending on the situation and local instructions? Oviously it does vary somewhat as drivers do not question different platforms (unless there is a problem with using that platform) and I'm sure would not question short sections of running on unbooked lines, but oviously a long accidental diversion to the slows could cause considerable late running (especially if caught behind slow trains), yet might be deliberate to get around a problem on the fast line.
For example (to O L Leigh) would a West Anglia service that got the Down Main out of Liverpool St be expected to question it, or would they just accept it knowing they should get their normal route at Bethnal Green? Can't remember if you sign the GE side, but if so or for anyone else who does, what about if a GE service booked fast was given the Down Electric, which IIRC would also allow the correct line to be regained at Bethnal Green.

 

[Smethwickian]

Hmmmm, there was a points failure at Aston on Saturday that compounded the farce at Soho, so rather than a wrong-route, I suspect it was all down to that.

If it prevented the train heading directly from the Handsworth Wood line along the curve south-eastward toward Aston, then indeed. Thank you, Ferret.

As I may have suggested, I asked the question because things seemed very confused and there was precious little information given on board.

 

[Ferret]

If it prevented the train heading directly from the Handsworth Wood line along the curve south-eastward toward Aston, then indeed. Thank you, Ferret.

As I may have suggested, I asked the question because things seemed very confused and there was precious little information given on board.

The points failure was indeed at Perry Barr, so it looks like the only was of getting you moving was to head up towards Bescot and reverse towards Aston. Not quite sure why there was no announcement to that effect!!!

 

[ChrisCooper]

I quiote agree - i was just shocked that it took a driver stopping his train on the main line and having a debate with a signal man to make the poin that he couldnt go that way

I'm not sure though where you are going with this. Signallers have know way of knowing what routes a driver signs, so stopping on the mainline and telling the signaller he can't take that route due to not signing it is the only option. If you mean the time it took to do it, then it depends on how it was handled. Reading your story you only mention the driver not signing the route right at the end, previously just saying that it was not the way he was booked. If that was the actual cource of the conversation, then it's likely the signaller just thought he was an awkward bugger, who sounds pretty rude into the bargain (and in any situation that's not going to help get the desired response) and therefore was being stubbon himself (and quite right), at least up until he realised the real reason for it. If on the other hand the driver was clear from the start he did not sign the route, then it would be the signaller who was being awkward and incompetant and was in the wrong. I've been on both sides of these sorts of incidents (not in the railways though) and they are the only times I've come close to smacking a collegue or customer out of frustration.

 

[driver9000]

With regard to a train taking the slow lines instead of the fast, it's not considered a wrong route unless there is a diverging junction the train would need to access with the junction located on slow line. An example I can give is Preston, if a train heading for south towards Leyland the driver can take UF or US and it's not a wrong route. If a train is heading for Ormskirk or East Lancs then it must be routed via the slow US because the junction is only on the slow lines, taking UF or another indication is a wrong route.

I believe there are some route cards that specify 'fast' or 'slow' and in those cases the Driver would need to challenge the route if signalled onto roads they didn't sign.

There was a situation in the Manchester area a couple of years ago when ECS was going to Wigan booked via Atherton but the train could equally be signalled via Bolton/Westhoughton without problem. One night the train went away from it's booked route, came across a possession and had to turn back causing a huge delay. Since then Driver's have been instructed to keep to the booked route and challenge it if offered the other route.

 

[JoeGJ1984]

I seem to remember a sign just after Coventry heading towards Leamington Spa on a W&S service saying "Electric trains stop here". I presume that's where the wires would end.

Also, have electric trains ever got stuck on a neutral section? I would imagine if, because of a signal failure, a train has to travel slowly so it can see any obstructions, that might increase the risk of getting stuck on a neutral section. And is there any situation where a signal is just after a neutral section? (if a train is slowing down because the signal is read, I can see trains getting stuck on the neutral section).

 

[me123]

And what if by taking the wrong route, an electric train could end up on a non-electrified section (has this ever happened?). How would they sort that out?

It's happened at least once in Edinburgh with a 318. It was routed into a West End bay at Edinburgh Waverley (ie, one of platforms 12-18). That wouldn't be a problem today, but back then those lines weren't electrified... There's a photo of it somewhere, but I'm struggling to find it at the moment.

In all reality, I'd imagine that such instances are few and far between. The combined knowledge of the driver and signaler should ensure that this doesn't happen.