Wrong routes

[driver9000]

The actual dead section itself is only around 10 feet long although the spacing of APC inductors for the on train breakers is longer. While it would be difficult to stop with the pan in the dead section it's not unheard of. Signals and neutral sections tend to be kept sufficiantly apart to reduce the risk of stopping with the pan in the dead section but I expect there are exceptions to this.

Should a train become 'gapped' there are instructions for what to do, I don't sign electrics but I'm sure someone who does can explain what they should do - they used to be able to roll forwards, get permission to set back or reset the VCB on the loco/unit to restore power depending on the circumstances.

 

[Flywaver]

Well, you can't take a route you don't "sign".



I believe there was an occasion when one took a left towards PBO by mistake and stopped beyond the end of the wires. It had gone so far that they ended up emptying Cambridge CS of units just to have enough to reach it.

O L Leigh

6x317s to fetch the wrong routed 317 back.... The unit was at Queen Adelaide crossing. We had more of a joke with the Driver as he lived at March.
After an early finish....

 

[DarloRich]

I'm not sure though where you are going with this. Signallers have know way of knowing what routes a driver signs, so stopping on the mainline and telling the signaller he can't take that route due to not signing it is the only option. If you mean the time it took to do it, then it depends on how it was handled. Reading your story you only mention the driver not signing the route right at the end, previously just saying that it was not the way he was booked. If that was the actual cource of the conversation, then it's likely the signaller just thought he was an awkward bugger, who sounds pretty rude into the bargain (and in any situation that's not going to help get the desired response) and therefore was being stubbon himself (and quite right), at least up until he realised the real reason for it. If on the other hand the driver was clear from the start he did not sign the route, then it would be the signaller who was being awkward and incompetant and was in the wrong. I've been on both sides of these sorts of incidents (not in the railways though) and they are the only times I've come close to smacking a collegue or customer out of frustration.

It was more that he HAD to have a debate with the signal box. He told him in the very first sentance, after the operational stuff, that he didnt sign the route. He must have said it about 5 times. Surely if you tell the signal box you dont know the route they cant expect you to travel that way. The signal box didnt seem to grasp that point

 

[MrC]

Of course it shouldn't be too easy for an EMU driver to take the wrong route in my example, as they get stacks of notice for it being set - the flashing aspects can be seen when in the platform at Basingstoke.

Unless they're following a Salisbury-bound unit too close to get the flashing aspects, or if the signaller sets the route a bit late (although you'd hope they'd then be going slow enough to notice and stop on sighting the junction signal)!

But it is less error-prone since BARS - previously you had no idea you'd been wrong-routed until the junction signal came into view at which point you could be doing 85 or so in a good 442. It was always a good idea to check the signal aspects on the down slow as if they were showing green then you had a big clue that something was amiss.

 

[ChrisCooper]

It was more that he HAD to have a debate with the signal box. He told him in the very first sentance, after the operational stuff, that he didnt sign the route. He must have said it about 5 times. Surely if you tell the signal box you dont know the route they cant expect you to travel that way. The signal box didnt seem to grasp that point

Ah right. It's just that you didn't make that clear in your story, and the fact you left it until the last line to mention he didn't sign the route suggested that he left it until the end too.

As I said I've had a few annoying similar experiances where someone has been seemingly causing trouble or being awkward just for the sake of it until they finally realise they are not winning and come out with a perfectly good reason why I should have given in to them. Worst case was one time when my superior finally got involved just as they decided to come out with the real problem, making me look a right prat and narrowly avoid a serious disiplinary (as this was the first time they had mentioned that the problem was not just inconvienient but potentially very dangerous).

From personal experiance the other way, I wouldn't be at all suprised if the signallers eventual response was along the lines of "well why didn't you say before!" I've also had that said to me a few times leading to something like "actually if you'd shut your mouth and listened for a few mins I've been trying to tell you for ages". Last person to get that was my ex-girlfriend, who annoyingly was just as bad at not explaining things properly too.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Should a train become 'gapped' there are instructions for what to do, I don't sign electrics but I'm sure someone who does can explain what they should do - they used to be able to roll forwards, get permission to set back or reset the VCB on the loco/unit to restore power depending on the circumstances.

From memory, call the signaller and arrange to 'Gravitate' (roll) out of the neutral section. If the track is as near to level as makes no difference, another train is required to couple up and propel/haul the train out of the section.

 

[The Barlow Boy]

The other little problem that has happened is a train formation mistake. There was a whole spate of 8 on 8s at Victoria for a little while and it's certainly been done at Waterloo too.

 

[Ivo]

Funny you put up this thread; last night I was on a 179 bus to Midsomer Norton which went the wrong way three times (and then it would have been four if the driver, who had never done the 179 before, had continued to use the directions he was given and not listened to my advice)!

I've never had it happen by accident. Only ever engineering works or emergency situations.

 

[pappleby]

i think the driver of 'Tornado' or another steam railtour ,made an unscheduled stop at Grantham,last year,as he saw he was signaled on the wrong line,it was sorted out the station!-there was! a clip of this on youtube

 

[strange6]

With regard to a train taking the slow lines instead of the fast, it's not considered a wrong route unless there is a diverging junction the train would need to access with the junction located on slow line. An example I can give is Preston, if a train heading for south towards Leyland the driver can take UF or US and it's not a wrong route. If a train is heading for Ormskirk or East Lancs then it must be routed via the slow US because the junction is only on the slow lines, taking UF or another indication is a wrong route.

I believe there are some route cards that specify 'fast' or 'slow' and in those cases the Driver would need to challenge the route if signalled onto roads they didn't sign.

There was a situation in the Manchester area a couple of years ago when ECS was going to Wigan booked via Atherton but the train could equally be signalled via Bolton/Westhoughton without problem. One night the train went away from it's booked route, came across a possession and had to turn back causing a huge delay. Since then Driver's have been instructed to keep to the booked route and challenge it if offered the other route.

Who would authorise diverting from the booked route (in this case, via Atherton)? It can't just be the signaller, surely?

 

[route101]

Wrong routes (off the docket) can also be the signaller trying to keep the job going, particularly when there are multiple routes. A common one is in the Glasgow area, the VT services will get sent 'wrong route' to keep the job flowing smoothly. A time ago, they had to stop if given that route and challenge the signaller but now they are to just accept it.

Another one is Manchester - Wigan on early/late turns, late nights over the TPE and deviating from booked route on ECS turns, where bizarre routings are taken to keep driver knowledge up etc.

Oh and running via Norton Bridge rather than taking the road at Colwich is a possibility for Manchester 390s, cows on the line and all that.

Best VT diversion is via Mount Florida , dosent happen often .
Im pretty sure that ive been on a GNER that has gone into the Unelectrified Mound Tunnel at Edinburgh Waverley .

 

[driver9000]

The signalman has authority over his panel and can in theory send a train where ever he wants as long as it's permitted along that line. Subsequent boxes will be informed by the usual methods of telephone/bells etc. TOC controllers will be told but if the train is going to end up where it wants to be and the crew sign it then there is no problem on the ground after all it's an ECS move. Signalmen often use ECS for 'rusty rail' moves, I've been running ECS some nights and been put through every Goods loop en route.


With regard to the diversions that can be taken by Virgin Trains away from their booked route, it's noted in the relevant sectional appendices that trains can be signalled away from the booked route and Driver's need not challenge the route offered unless they don't sign the route offered or a booked station call would be missed. I think this instruction came about because of the delays caused by trains stopping and Driver's challenging the route offered.

 

[strange6]

The signalman has authority over his panel and can in theory send a train where ever he wants as long as it's permitted along that line. Subsequent boxes will be informed by the usual methods of telephone/bells etc. TOC controllers will be told but if the train is going to end up where it wants to be and the crew sign it then there is no problem on the ground after all it's an ECS move. Signalmen often use ECS for 'rusty rail' moves, I've been running ECS some nights and been put through every Goods loop en route.

I only glimpsed through the thread and so I didn't see it was ECS trips I suppose it doesn't matter then.

Another excellent answer driver9000 since you have included in your response something I have always thought about when looking at rails - and that's the amount of rust on the not frequently used tracks. I always did wonder why they were not made more use of, just to keep them in shape, so to speak. Now I know the signallers think this way too so thanks for that. Another piece of superb rail education from you.

 

[GB]

Well, you can't take a route you don't "sign".

That should probably say you shouldn't take a route you don't sign.

I was told of a wrong routing up north a few months ago, the driver travelled some 6 miles before having a CAT A spad!!

 

[Ferret]

That should probably say you shouldn't take a route you don't sign.

I was told of a wrong routing up north a few months ago, the driver travelled some 6 miles before having a CAT A spad!!

Yikes!!! I've heard of somebody going through Tamworth on the high level when he should've been on the low level (booked via Nuneaton to reverse) and still he didn't stop. Interesting chat with the signaller!

 

[TDK]

I don't know if this really counts but coming back home from New Street, the driver kinda forgot that he had to go out the same way he came in and almost mashed the front of a turbostar on a 323 that was stationary.

Kinda hard to miss that with the lights on!

Thats impossible without having a Spad at New Street Ian

 

[strange6]

That should probably say you shouldn't take a route you don't sign.

I was told of a wrong routing up north a few months ago, the driver travelled some 6 miles before having a CAT A spad!!

Oh dear, what happened to him?

 

[TDK]

A Liverpool bound Pendolino was incorrectly signalled towards Preston at Weaver Junction quite recently, and had to retrace it’s steps a bit to regain the correct route once the driver had brought the train to a stand.

That is just as much driver error as you get flashing yellows at Wever Junction for Lime Street, plenty of time to stop.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Would a train taking a different line to the booked one, for example slow lines if booked fast, be considered a wrong route, and would drivers be expected to stop and challenge the routing? .

Only if it will considerably delay the service
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Who would authorise diverting from the booked route (in this case, via Atherton)? It can't just be the signaller, surely?

The signaller will set the route but the companies control will authorise it for the signaller as they know what driver is driving the train etc.

 

[JoeGJ1984]

That should probably say you shouldn't take a route you don't sign.

I was told of a wrong routing up north a few months ago, the driver travelled some 6 miles before having a CAT A spad!!

What's a CAT A spad? (I presume you mean category A!)

 

[GB]

What's a CAT A spad? (I presume you mean category A!)

yup.

Not sure what happened to the driver though.

 

[TDK]

What's a CAT A spad? (I presume you mean category A!)

It's when a driver passes a danger signal without authority

 

[boing_uk]

Preston is a bugger for silly routeing and operational faux pas. Such as the Liverpool service I was on which was put in to Platform 1, which then went on to have a Blackpool South train parked up in front of it, necessitating a reversal of the Liverpool train back out of the station and then back in to Platform 2.

Or the numerous freight trains the signaller sees fit to route in front of my train home in to the Up/Down goods.

I know its easy for me to sit here and criticise... which is why I am not. People make mistakes sometimes; its only a minor inconvenience. I'd rather not be a signaller; I'll stick to traffic, ta very much.

 

[BestWestern]

What's a CAT A spad? (I presume you mean category A!)

A 'Category A' SPAD is if the Driver is at fault for the incident. There are other categories which cover situations where it is not the fault of the Driver, for example if a signal 'goes back', or changes from clear to danger, in front of an approaching train causing the train to SPAD the signal regardless of the actions of the Driver.

On the wrong routings front, an interesting situation can occur when a service is booked to stand in a loop, generally to allow another train to pass. For example some FGW local stopping services are booked to pull into the down loop at Yatton for five minutes or so whilst a Voyager shoots past. If the passing service is heavily delayed or cancelled, then the local train will usually be routed straight along the main line. This route is generally accepted by the Traincrew with no quibble, as it is a pretty common occurence, even though strictly speaking it is off-diagram.

Something which a Driver or Signaller colleague might be able to answer; if a wrong routing occurs is the Signaller involved relieved of their duties and Medi-Screened etc in the same way the Traincrew might be after an incident? Always wondered that.

 

[driver9000]

Preston is a bugger for silly routeing and operational faux pas. Such as the Liverpool service I was on which was put in to Platform 1, which then went on to have a Blackpool South train parked up in front of it, necessitating a reversal of the Liverpool train back out of the station and then back in to Platform 2.

That happened to me once. Some passengers weren't happy when we had to turf them off while I shunted the train.

 

[Pumbaa]

That is just as much driver error as you get flashing yellows at Wever Junction for Lime Street, plenty of time to stop.

Even at 110EPS? It's not the only time its happened either.

I wouldn't have thought he'd have to set back all the way to Crewe though, it could have shunted over at Acton Bridge on the GL, and then back over the crossover at the top of GL couldn't it?

 

[Minilad]

I would imagine wrong routing happens fairly often. I have had a few. Most of the time its just a case of stop inform signaller then wait till he resets the road then carry on your merry way.
Thats what route knowledge is all about.
There are a few places where if you were wrong routed you might struggle to stop in time at line speed. But in the main you usually are aware early enough to stop

 

[CliveJones]

Ive seen three. One was taken by the driver. As this was at Tyseley (at the time a very low speed junction) I cant figure how he managed that.

To answer the OP. The passengers were detrained at the next stop. And had to wait for a connection back. The train than ran to the first turn back (Dorridge) and back to Moor st to restart its journey as though it was returning from Shirley as booked.

I recall a mention of a train out of London routed wrongly years and years ago and had to go off on a tour with the normal press hysteria of "train could have crashed blah blah".

 

[ChrisCooper]

I presume the wiring on the Up Normanton beyond Colton Junction is long enough for an electric doing 125mph and getting a right hand feather at Colton can stop before going off the end.

 

[spoony]

The T & W Metro I was on a couple of weeks back. Was due to go to South Hylton from Pelaw. The driver realised too late the route was set for South Shields, he gave an announcement blaming it on the control room. Sat there about 10 minutes before heading halfway to Hebburn, driver then jumped out walked trackside to the rear cab and drove back to Pelaw

 

[O L Leigh]

For example (to O L Leigh) would a West Anglia service that got the Down Main out of Liverpool St be expected to question it, or would they just accept it knowing they should get their normal route at Bethnal Green? Can't remember if you sign the GE side, but if so or for anyone else who does, what about if a GE service booked fast was given the Down Electric, which IIRC would also allow the correct line to be regained at Bethnal Green.

That's not a problem, and nor is getting routed into another platform other than the one you're booked into. However, you would need to be aware of where your last signal is that takes you back onto the correct route and to check that one to make sure you're not about to be sent out into the wilds.

If a signaller was going to divert you away from your booked route you should be stopped and warned about it. The signaller would also need to check the driver's route knowledge as not all drivers sign all routes and some may be new and are still on "core route" turns. For example, Cambridge drivers don't sign the GE at all and so need to be conducted if diverted via Stratford.

O L Leigh