Wrong Route Accepted (Hypothetical)

[Bromley boy]

Duuuuudddeee I only did it once and it was still technically allowed a few months ago

At least you sign north of Blackfriars - not that that would have helped much in a networker .

What a disaster.

 

[IanXC]

Delays caused by disruption leave trains, drivers and crews in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I'm not sure quite what kind of crew they have other than drivers?

 

[Bromley boy]

I'm not sure quite what kind of crew they have other than drivers?

None at all.

They probably think padding out the excuses with nonsense like that makes them sound more convincing.

 

[IanXC]

None at all.

They probably think padding out the excuses with nonsense like that makes them sound more convincing.

I'm glad you thought exactly what I thought

 

[Bromley boy]

I'm glad you thought exactly what I thought

Unless they were referring to route learners as “crew”. Plenty of those knocking around...

Several in each cab.

 

[bramling]

Also, unlike on the Mainline, station staff (Supervisor typically, of which there is one rostered at every LU managed station, meal relief times at smaller stations and absence aside) would usually be able to act as a pilot for the T/Op to allow the train to continue. On most occasions of wrong signal lowered and accepted recently, the train continues to the next station and is met by the Supervisor to do a welfare check, detrain, and accompany the T/Op to a suitable point.

The South Harrow situation is rather dodgy, and I suspect LU could have found themselves on very thin ice indeed had something ever gone wrong on one of these self-guided excursions.

It’s all very well the supervisor acting as pilot, but are they familiar with the speed limit, both on the running line and over the various crossovers, traction current layout, what to do in a failure, and all the other details a driver would know?

As far as I am concerned anyone piloting a train should hold a trains licence - so that’s basically either train operator or duty manager. I wouldn’t feel comfortable being piloted by a station supervisor.

 

[Bromley boy]

As far as I am concerned anyone piloting a train should hold a trains licence - so that’s basically either train operator or duty manager. I wouldn’t feel comfortable being piloted by a station supervisor.

Interesting the differences between NR and LU.

On NR metals the only person who can ever pilot a train (ie act as a conductor driver) is a route qualified driver.

 

[bramling]

Interesting the differences between NR and LU.

On NR metals the only person who can ever pilot a train (ie act as a conductor driver) is a route qualified driver.

Which is how it should be.

I suspect the South Harrow situation came about through custom & practice over the years, rather than being an official procedure. Even nowadays it’s surprising what happens at times to keep things moving.

It would certainly make for an rather “interesting” investigation should a SPAD, or worse, occur involving a train being piloted by someone not actually a qualified driver!

 

[Bromley boy]

Having said that, I’m sure I recall a District train ended up at Northfields recently. It would certainly make for an rather “interesting” investigation should a SPAD, or worse, occur involving a train being piloted by someone not actually a qualified driver!

Aren’t there gauge indicators which set all the signals to red if a train of the wrong gauge is wrong routed? (Ie S stock sent onto the pic).

A mate at my depot is an ex LU district/circle and bakerloo driver. His nightmare shift as a “motorman” was “6 circles”.

That makes a 4 day week, 90-100 station stops per shift, look like a walk in the park (although it really isn’t!).

 

[bramling]

Aren’t there gauge indicators which set all the signals to red if a train of the wrong gauge is wrong routed? (Ie S stock sent onto the pic).

A mate at my depot is an ex LU district/circle and bakerloo driver. His nightmare shift as a “motorman” was “6 circles”.

That makes a 4 day week, 90-100 station stops per shift, look like a walk in the park (although it really isn’t!).

Yes but only approaching Tube tunnels. From memory they are at Hounslow Central and Hammersmith protecting the Picc tunnels. There was also one at Finchley Road - I can’t remember if this survived the Jubilee resignalling. There’s also a special arrangement at Queen’s Park where a negative shoe detector only allows the junction signal to clear for an LU train.

In the past electric train detectors were very common when BR goods trains used to operate onto parts of LU, but over the years these have all gone along with the mainline connections associated with them.

The South Harrow situation has now been mitigated - IIRC the length of a train is measured by track circuits and the slightly longer S stock will not now get the signal towards South Harrow. Naturally this solution didn’t work for D stock, but again IIRC the measure was more to prevent S stock rather than surface stock in general.

 

[Bromley boy]

Yes but only approaching Tube tunnels. From memory they are at Hounslow Central and Hammersmith protecting the Picc tunnels. There was also one at Finchley Road - I can’t remember if this survived the Jubilee resignalling. There’s also a special arrangement at Queen’s Park where a negative shoe detector only allows the junction signal to clear for an LU train.

In the past electric train detectors were very common when BR goods trains used to operate onto parts of LU, but over the years these have all gone along with the mainline connections associated with them.

The South Harrow situation has now been mitigated - IIRC the length of a train is measured by track circuits and the slightly longer S stock will not now get the signal towards South Harrow. Naturally this solution didn’t work for D stock, but again IIRC the measure was more to prevent S stock rather than surface stock in general.

Great knowledge/insight, many thanks.

 

[woodmally]

If a signaller offers, and a driver accepts, a route for which the driver does not have the necessary route knowledge, what is the subsequent procedure? Presumably the driver stops the train ASAP and informs the signaller, but what happens then?

I suppose if it's possible to reverse past the junction and try again, then that might be an option, but are there cases where that might not be the case?

For example, let's say at a junction, the driver has route knowledge on the left-hand route but not the right-hand route. He accidentally takes the right-hand route, and stops the train. There is a station a few hundred metres ahead, whereas if he were to reverse and continue on the left-hand route, it would be some time before he would reach a station. Given that the TOC might want him to detrain and be relieved, it would make practical sense for him to continue to the station at low speed. However, is this sort of scenario allowed?

It's not just hypothetical: XC train takes wrong route near Pontefract

 

[frediculous]

What would happen in a situation such as this?

https://twitter.com/hellopolly/status/1000667613880610816?s=19

On a @SouthernRailUK train which was miraculously wrongrouted to a line with no power, narrowly avoiding mowing down a track worker

Where a train gets sent down a route that has no power and has engineering works. Surely a diesel loco to rescue?

 

[Muzer]

You wouldn't ordinarily 'auto' a junction signal - it's just asking for trouble. I have seen colleagues tripped up by previously unnoticed, unnecessarily 'auto-ed' signals elsewhere, though.

You say that; I imagine it depends on the box. My memory's a little vague but I remember winning in a charity auction a half-day in West Hampstead PSB shadowing a signaller. He seemed to be perfectly comfortable with setting auto routes for every type of route, especially if there was a train following closely behind that took the same route. He was very good at remembering to cancel them though!