Wrong Route Accepted (Hypothetical)

[bcarmicle]

If a signaller offers, and a driver accepts, a route for which the driver does not have the necessary route knowledge, what is the subsequent procedure? Presumably the driver stops the train ASAP and informs the signaller, but what happens then?

I suppose if it's possible to reverse past the junction and try again, then that might be an option, but are there cases where that might not be the case?

For example, let's say at a junction, the driver has route knowledge on the left-hand route but not the right-hand route. He accidentally takes the right-hand route, and stops the train. There is a station a few hundred metres ahead, whereas if he were to reverse and continue on the left-hand route, it would be some time before he would reach a station. Given that the TOC might want him to detrain and be relieved, it would make practical sense for him to continue to the station at low speed. However, is this sort of scenario allowed?

 

[Segedunum]

Here's a post from the sadly late District Dave on his experience of accepting a wrong route on the London Underground-

http://www.districtdave.co.uk/html/confession_time.html

 

[theking]

You stop your train immediately.
Contact the signaller.
Then once the signaller gives permission set back to the signal protecting the junction and take the right route.

If you are to move forward you would need to wait for a conductor driver.

 

[Highlandspring]

I’ve seen it happen a few times, the last time it developed directly into a SPAD when trying to recover the train. The previous occasion to that the (electric) train involved ended up off the wires.

 

[tsr]

Once you start calling at stations of which you have no knowledge, especially to release any sort of doors, you open many many more cans of worms...

 

[Lockwood]

Tsr, can I piggyback OP's question.
If the driver used to sign the other route but no longer does, and there has been no major alteration to the operation of the station, and the line is busy enough that having the driver go back to try again would be very disruptive, would that alter the signaller/TOC's handling of the situation? Quite a few ifs in there, I know

Or if, again reversing would be difficult, the driver knows the incorrect station as it is a station they regularly use as a passenger, so they know that Procedure X is used there?

 

[6Gman]

Tsr, can I piggyback OP's question.
If the driver used to sign the other route but no longer does, and there has been no major alteration to the operation of the station, and the line is busy enough that having the driver go back to try again would be very disruptive, would that alter the signaller/TOC's handling of the situation? Quite a few ifs in there, I know

Or if, again reversing would be difficult, the driver knows the incorrect station as it is a station they regularly use as a passenger, so they know that Procedure X is used there?

No, no, no. (I suspect.)

If the driver doesn't sign the route he (or she) doesn't sign the route.

And using the station as a passenger doesn't help either.

 

[bcarmicle]

Here's a post from the sadly late District Dave on his experience of accepting a wrong route on the London Underground-

http://www.districtdave.co.uk/html/confession_time.html

Given the other answers to this thread, does this mean London Underground have different rules re. route knowledge given he was allowed to proceed to South Harrow?

 

[bluegoblin7]

Given the other answers to this thread, does this mean London Underground have different rules re. route knowledge given he was allowed to proceed to South Harrow?

Yes. LU's rule book and procedures are completely different from that of the mainline (save for the 'shared' areas where relevant sections of the RSSB rule books do apply). The presence of trainstops at every signal also mitigates some of the affects of not knowing a route, as does CSDE and other equipment.

That said, continuing to South Harrow is exceptional (and now, in theory, no longer possible). Generally speaking trains will be set back in the first instance wherever possible

 

[High Dyke]

I can't speak for the procedure on LU only lines. However on National Rail if the driver stops before taking the wrong route then only the signaller gets blamed. If the driver accepts the wrong route then the delay is split between both the signaller and the driver and left to the respective companies to argue responsibility. This was seen in the Canal Tunnel incident on Monday where the driver accepted the wrong route.

 

[SPADTrap]

I hate the term 'offers a route' and I love to know where that first became used officially. The routes are 'set'.

 

[muz379]

Tsr, can I piggyback OP's question.
If the driver used to sign the other route but no longer does, and there has been no major alteration to the operation of the station, and the line is busy enough that having the driver go back to try again would be very disruptive, would that alter the signaller/TOC's handling of the situation? Quite a few ifs in there, I know

Or if, again reversing would be difficult, the driver knows the incorrect station as it is a station they regularly use as a passenger, so they know that Procedure X is used there?

Irrelevant that you used to sign the route or regularly use it as a passenger . If you dont sign the route currently you dont sign it and that is all that matters .

Once you stop the train on a route you dont sign , control and the signaller are not going to authorize any further train movement over the route you dont sign .

I've heard of instances of wrong routes being taken resolved by getting a spare driver who does sign the route to the train to relieve the driver who has taken the wrong route

 

[AM9]

A question from a complete layperson as far as railway operational rules go:
this thread has talked about the consequences of a driver venturing onto metals that they do not sign. What happens to the signaller who sets the wrong route (assuming that it isn't an automation error/equipment fault).

 

[sw1ller]

During training I was told of a driver that took a wrong route at winwick junction that he didn’t sign. He didn’t realise for about 3 miles! Don’t know how it’s even possible to go that far without realising. He should have hit a 20mph PSR (correct route) not long after but he’s still at full chat (on the wrong route)?? Serious lack of concentration there.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

About 15 - 20 years ago I was on a Waterloo to Epsom train which went into the wrong platform at Raynes Park, platform 3 instead of platform 4. What they did then was they ran the following train into platform 4 and all the passengers, and presumably the crews, switched trains...

 

[contrad!ction]

What happens to the signaller who sets the wrong route (assuming that it isn't an automation error/equipment fault).

I can only speak for multi manned boxes but for a ‘standard’ wrong route:

- Tell your shift manager
- They go through a form with you (asking why/was ARS involved etc...)
- This would likely be kept on your file

If you start doing this unusually often questions will be asked and your line manager will start to get involved more and you might be put on an action plan/special monitoring.

If you put an electric train into a non electrified portion of line then, depending on the circumstances, your line manager will likely be getting involved rather quickly.

 

[pompeyfan]

Before I get shot down in flames, I appreciate that Simsig in general is very much different from the real thing.

However simsig offers auto buttons on many signals on a variety of panels, one assumes this is a real feature.

The majority of the time if I’ve set a wrong route it’s because I’m busy somewhere else and I have an auto button set over a diverging junction, does this happen in real life too?

 

[Mojo]

Yes. LU's rule book and procedures are completely different from that of the mainline (save for the 'shared' areas where relevant sections of the RSSB rule books do apply). The presence of trainstops at every signal also mitigates some of the affects of not knowing a route, as does CSDE and other equipment.

That said, continuing to South Harrow is exceptional (and now, in theory, no longer possible). Generally speaking trains will be set back in the first instance wherever possible

Also, unlike on the Mainline, station staff (Supervisor typically, of which there is one rostered at every LU managed station, meal relief times at smaller stations and absence aside) would usually be able to act as a pilot for the T/Op to allow the train to continue. On most occasions of wrong signal lowered and accepted recently, the train continues to the next station and is met by the Supervisor to do a welfare check, detrain, and accompany the T/Op to a suitable point.

 

[Geezertronic]

I can't speak for the procedure on LU only lines. However on National Rail if the driver stops before taking the wrong route then only the signaller gets blamed. If the driver accepts the wrong route then the delay is split between both the signaller and the driver and left to the respective companies to argue responsibility. This was seen in the Canal Tunnel incident on Monday where the driver accepted the wrong route.

What happens if the driver cannot safely stop the train in time before "accepting" the route? I was on a 390 (EUS-BHM) at Rugby (several years ago) that was doing line speed and was wrongly routed down the Trent Valley instead of towards Coventry. Despite what felt like an emergency stop, the driver still had to reverse back into Rugby to be correctly routed, but I assume he was unable to stop in time which is why the wrong route was taken. How would that be sorted out as far as arguing responsibility?

 

[GB]

What happens if the driver cannot safely stop the train in time before "accepting" the route? I was on a 390 (EUS-BHM) at Rugby (several years ago) that was doing line speed and was wrongly routed down the Trent Valley instead of towards Coventry. Despite what felt like an emergency stop, the driver still had to reverse back into Rugby to be correctly routed, but I assume he was unable to stop in time which is why the wrong route was taken. How would that be sorted out as far as arguing responsibility?

I believe in those cases the driver will be exonerated.

 

[trebor79]

Yes I remember being on an HST many years ago thay was wrongly routed south of York. It was an XC to Penzance which usually went via Leeds or Doncaster. This one was meant to be Leeds but diverted round some interesting alternative routes due to engineering works.
Anyway we're doing line speed when all of a sudden there's an emergency brake application. Guard came on to explain wrong route had been set and he needed to get down onto the track to help the driver reverse back over the junction (I recall he seemed rather proud of this point!).
I always assumed the signaller must have thought at the back of his mind "it's not calling at Leeds, so it's routed via Dobcaster".

Didn't cause thay much of a delay and I enjoyed trundling past various freight facilities and loco depots afterwards, I'm not quite sure which route we took but pretty sure it involves some ordinarily freight only sections.

 

[Right Away]

I believe in those cases the driver will be exonerated.

Yes they will be. There are plenty of locations where the driver of an approaching train has no previous way of knowing which way a route has been set over a junction until the signal protecting the junction is viewed. Cogload Junction near Taunton is a good example. Running on greens, by the time you see the signal it is far too late to be able to stop before it. As long as the driver reacts instantly, the delay will be 'O' coded to Network Rail.

At many locations dependant on line speeds approach releasing from red, flashing yellow aspects and preliminary route indicators can be provided. It is the responsibility of the driver to know the correct indications for the route they should be taking. If the wrong route is taken in these circumstances, the delay will be split equally between the TOC/FOC and Network Rail.

 

[dctraindriver]

I can only speak for multi manned boxes but for a ‘standard’ wrong route:

- Tell your shift manager
- They go through a form with you (asking why/was ARS involved etc...)
- This would likely be kept on your file

If you start doing this unusually often questions will be asked and your line manager will start to get involved more and you might be put on an action plan/special monitoring.

If you put an electric train into a non electrified portion of line then, depending on the circumstances, your line manager will likely be getting involved rather quickly.

Seems the signaller gets less of a grilling than the driver. Recorded as safety of line incident and much frowned upon.

 

[Bromley boy]

I hate the term 'offers a route' and I love to know where that first became used officially. The routes are 'set'.

Indeed. I’d like to know that too.

I suspect it’s worded like that to load the responsibility onto the driver. Refusing something which is “offered” sounds much easier to do than refusing something which is “set”!

 

[Bromley boy]

I believe in those cases the driver will be exonerated.

I would *imagine* this is also the case where the signaller audiably confirms route A has been set (driver - signaller GSMR conversations are recorded) but then still sets (incorrect) route B.

The GTR movement into the Canal tunnels vice Kings + earlier this week would likely fit into this category.

 

[Muzer]

the

Before I get shot down in flames, I appreciate that Simsig in general is very much different from the real thing.

However simsig offers auto buttons on many signals on a variety of panels, one assumes this is a real feature.

The majority of the time if I’ve set a wrong route it’s because I’m busy somewhere else and I have an auto button set over a diverging junction, does this happen in real life too?

Of course you must remember that the areas you tend to control in SimSig are larger than the areas real signallers control - SimSig will often simulate an entire PSB in one sim, whereas in reality it'd be split into a number of panels, each with its own signaller. Thus your area of control is smaller and your attention is less likely to be distracted for long enough to result in forgetting to unset auto buttons. I'm sure it still happens though!

 

[thealexweb]

A log train was accidentally routed via Bolton last year. The driver had no knowledge of the route but was told to continue to the sidings at Bolton and stop there.

 

[jyte]

I would *imagine* this is also the case where the signaller audiably confirms route A has been set (driver - signaller GSMR conversations are recorded) but then still sets (incorrect) route B.

The GTR movement into the Canal tunnels vice Kings + earlier this week would likely fit into this category.

What movement?! Did someone send the wrong train into the canal tunnels?!

 

[Bromley boy]

What movement?! Did someone send the wrong train into the canal tunnels?!

Yes earlier in the week a driver contacted the signaller to inform them he didn’t sign the canal tunnels and was told he would be routed into Kings + but was sent into the tunnels anyway and had to make a wrong direction move back out.

I know no more than those basic circumstances but I would hope the driver would be fully exhonerated in that instance.

 

[GB]

Seems the signaller gets less of a grilling than the driver. Recorded as safety of line incident and much frowned upon.

Its still recorded and logged, but I think there is a general understanding that there are usually more mitigating circumstances on the signallers part.