Wrong Direction Moves

[Lddex]

Some clarification. I know the 10 reasons. But in AB and even TCB land can you authorise a WDM across two or more areas or are the 10 reasons listed in TW7 only in your area of control - or if in the block back to your area of control?

I know there are rules in both TS2 and TS3 for working in the wrong direction where permission has to be obtained from Ops Control and with AB various bell codes are needed.

But can Op Control authorise a WDM to take place in AB from one signal box to the other? Or is this a no no. Has I can't find any mention in the rule book. I am puzzled as if you can - I don't see why you need the Working in the wrong direction rule for failed trains - being that one of the reasons you can do a WDM is to assist a failed train or evacuate passengers.

Anyway, all discussions welcome and any reference to the rule book most appreciated.

 

[contrad!ction]

But in AB and even TCB land can you authorise a WDM across two or more areas or are the 10 reasons listed in TW7 only in your area of control - or if in the block back to your area of control?

In short, there's nothing in the rule book that explicitly says you can't do it - so yes you can (at least, as a signaller, that's my interpretation ).

As ever, G1 Section 1 gives you the backing to do this if needed:

If there is no rule that allows or prevents you doing something you believe must be done, you must do it in the safest way you know taking into account your training and experience.

Common sense would dictate that before you authorise a driver to make a wrong direction move onto/from another signaller's area you get their explicit permission.

 

[Tom Quinne]

If the move is across two or more SB areas, the signallers at those SB msut be in agreement of what is required, what is to be done and when before the movement commences.

Usual rule book stuff about clear understanding be reached etc.

 

[Johncleesefan]

I wonder in what instance it would be required to do a w d move of that length without having bumped into a x over somewhere along the line first

 

[najaB]

I wonder in what instance it would be required to do a w d move of that length without having bumped into a x over somewhere along the line first

Crossovers are becoming less and less common these days. As an example (if memory serves correct) Dundee to Perth is about 21 miles with Longforgan, Errol and Barnhill SBs but no crossover (I think the one at Errol is OOU).

 

[contrad!ction]

I wonder in what instance it would be required to do a w d move of that length without having bumped into a x over somewhere along the line first

A failed train that can only be assisted from the front (for example) - the nearest point where you could get the assisting train/loco onto the wrong line could be miles away, and when you authorise the driver up to the protection you'd be doing a long wrong direction movement.

This is the relatively unusual case though, albeit not infrequent.

 

[Lddex]

A failed train that can only be assisted from the front (for example) - the nearest point where you could get the assisting train/loco onto the wrong line could be miles away, and when you authorise the driver up to the protection you'd be doing a long wrong direction movement.

This is the relatively unusual case though, albeit not infrequent.

Thats working in the wrong direction. A whole separate rule with bell codes.

Thats why I am puzzled. As why have a separate rule specific for failed train - where one of the reasons to carry out TW7 is obstruction, failure, accident or any other incident. Thats what made me question if you could. As TW7 mentions nothing about other signallers or boxes, just points and Level crossings.

Thanks for the replies so far

 

[Johncleesefan]

Classic rule book contradictions. It surely makes for light bedtime reading ey

 

[contrad!ction]

Thats working in the wrong direction. A whole separate rule with bell codes.

Thats why I am puzzled. As why have a separate rule specific for failed train - where one of the reasons to carry out TW7 is obstruction, failure, accident or any other incident. Thats what made me question if you could. As TW7 mentions nothing about other signallers or boxes, just points and Level crossings.

Can't speak for AB as I only work TCB but the section for working in the wrong direction in TS2 refers to the movement itself as a wrong direction movement, so work that one out!

(That AB section, along with shunting into forward section...wow...:roll

 

[47271]

Can we run a monthly competion for the most jargon laden and incomprehensible post?

It's usually station codes that attract our attention, but I think the OP in this thread is a dead cert for September's prize. [emoji38]

 

[Railsigns]

Can we run a monthly competion for the most jargon laden and incomprehensible post?

It's usually station codes that attract our attention, but I think the OP in this thread is a dead cert for September's prize. [emoji38]

Speaking of incomprehensible codes in posts, I have no idea what "emoji38" means.

 

[najaB]

Speaking of incomprehensible codes in posts, I have no idea what "emoji38" means.

In 47271's defence, the forum software inserted that one. It means that an emoji was used but the forum doesn't have a glyph to represent it.

 

[47271]

In 47271's defence, the forum software inserted that one. It means that an emoji was used but the forum doesn't have a glyph to represent it.

Thank you - what I actually typed was colon-lol-colon, which I don't believe to be in as any way obscure as what was provided upthread!

 

[High Dyke]

I wonder in what instance it would be required to do a w d move of that length without having bumped into a x over somewhere along the line first

Crossovers are becoming less and less common these days. As an example (if memory serves correct) Dundee to Perth is about 21 miles with Longforgan, Errol and Barnhill SBs but no crossover (I think the one at Errol is OOU).

Absolutely. The East Nottingham resignalling scheme during the last two years has seen a reduction in crossovers. From my current location the nearest crossover for me towards Nottingham is now 15 miles away. If you travel from Nottingham towards Lincoln the crossovers are 17 miles apart (Nottingham Eastcroft - Newark Castle).

In respect of the question posed by the OP. Yes Control would give you permission to make a wrong direction move, and just to be clear that is different from working in wrong direction. This opportunity presented itself at Newark Castle recently. A freight had failed just between the ECML and Newark Castle station on the Up line (towards nottingham). An assisting loco arrrived on the Down line, was signalled over the trailing crossover into Newark Castle station. It was then authorised by the signaller to proceed in the wrong direction towards the front of the failed train/assistance protection location.

 

[GB]

Can we run a monthly competion for the most jargon laden and incomprehensible post?

It's usually station codes that attract our attention, but I think the OP in this thread is a dead cert for September's prize. [emoji38]

Those that are in a position to answer will automatically know what the OP is saying.

If you do not know what the OP is referring to and what the acronyms are then the question is not aimed at you.

 

[najaB]

If you do not know what the OP is referring to and what the acronyms are then the question is not aimed at you.

I agree with you - to a point - but, as I understand it, one of the aims for the forum is to encourage wider understanding of how the railway works.

As such, a little bit of explanation of jargon wouldn't go amiss so that those who aren't in a position to answer can at least understand and learn a little from any replies by those who are.

 

[najaB]

...I think the one at Errol is OOU...

I had a look and it's still marked as active in the sectional appendix, it was the S&C to the old yard that I was thinking of. So it's only about 10 miles without a crossover.

 

[BRblue]

I agree with you - to a point - but, as I understand it, one of the aims for the forum is to encourage wider understanding of how the railway works.

As such, a little bit of explanation of jargon wouldn't go amiss so that those who aren't in a position to answer can at least understand and learn a little from any replies by those who are.

najaB...

Encouraging wider understanding to what extent?

TW7, TS2 and TS3 are rulebook modules and I'm sure most of us on here do not want to get into explaining that in detail.

As for AB, TCB and WDM. Here you go...

AB... Absolute Block.
TCB... track Circuit Block.
WDM... Wrong Direction Move.

Please appreciate that the OP as GB stated was asking a question that was aimed predominantly at other railway staff, as we would be most likely to know the answer hence the use of railway jargon.
I actually thought 47271's reply was pretty disrespectful and rude to be honest.

Unless we have a staff only sub forum this is going to happen from time to time.

 

[najaB]

TW7, TS2 and TS3 are rulebook modules and I'm sure most of us on here do not want to get into explaining that in detail.

Agreed!

Please appreciate that the OP as GB stated was asking a question that was aimed predominantly at other railway staff, as we would be most likely to know the answer hence the use of railway jargon.

That is understood and appreciated - hence why I don't completey disagree with GB's post. The point I was making is that, where a few extra keystrokes would make a post understandable to a wider audience, the little bit of extra time would be appreciated by those of us who aren't industry insiders.

I actually thought 47271's reply was pretty disrespectful and rude to be honest.

I suppose it's a matter of perception - I read it as cheeky rather than rude.

Unless we have a staff only sub forum this is going to happen from time to time.

Most probably. It's always going to be difficult to strike a balance when you have an open forum.

 

[47271]

47271's post was intended to be humorous. Cheeky maybe, but not disrespectful. Unless you're suffering a bit of a sense of humour failure in life generally. The LOL was a clue by the way.

Those of you who are involved the operational railway might have missed some threads on here where certain types of enthusiasts enjoy bandying around half baked understandings of station codes, headcodes, and more codes. To me, as a mere day to day passenger who doesn't get excited by that sort of thing, the OP read like a send up of that type of alphabet soup of a post.

Anyway, humour that has to be explained has clearly failed. LOL guys.

 

[johnr57]

Those that are in a position to answer will automatically know what the OP is saying.

If you do not know what the OP is referring to and what the acronyms are then the question is not aimed at you.

Hey this is not a "closed shop" forum - i havent the faintest idea what the jargon means but have an interest in the workings and operation of the railway and the explanation of odd things like this provide much interest. sadly even though najaB explained what the acronyms stand for (thank you) it would have been useful to understand what they mean on the railway.

having said that getting the gist of what goes on wasnt too difficult and the thread is still of interest. quite often the best parts of a thread are way down when a few folk discuss minutiae of detail operation at length

 

[johnr57]

what are the 10 reasons?

 

[signallerscot]

what are the 10 reasons?

Check it out yourself - https://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/rulebooks/GERT8000-TW7%20Iss%206.pdf

 

[TheEdge]

what are the 10 reasons?

They really are not that interesting but here we go...

1. A train to return after overrunning a platform as long as the overrun is not more than 400m
2. A train to return after taking the wrong route at a junction
3. A train is to make a movement to return from or proceed towards a line blocked by accident, failure, obstruction or other exceptional incident
4. A train cannot continue forward and has to return because it has failed, or cannot be driven from the cab at the leading end
5. A light locomotive or MU is to proceed to assit a failed train
6. The front portion of a divided train is to return to the rear portion
7. An engineering train is to move towards or from a line under possession
8. A shunting movement worked through points controlled by a ground frame
9. Single Line Working is in operation
10. Rail grinding train returning to extinguish a fire

As copied directly from TW7.

 

[johnr57]

Check it out yourself - https://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/rulebooks/GERT8000-TW7%20Iss%206.pdf

They really are not that interesting but here we go...

1. A train to return after overrunning a platform as long as the overrun is not more than 400m
2. A train to return after taking the wrong route at a junction
3. A train is to make a movement to return from or proceed towards a line blocked by accident, failure, obstruction or other exceptional incident
4. A train cannot continue forward and has to return because it has failed, or cannot be driven from the cab at the leading end
5. A light locomotive or MU is to proceed to assit a failed train
6. The front portion of a divided train is to return to the rear portion
7. An engineering train is to move towards or from a line under possession
8. A shunting movement worked through points controlled by a ground frame
9. Single Line Working is in operation
10. Rail grinding train returning to extinguish a fire

As copied directly from TW7.

many thanks both - Signallerscot you may well have provided much light reading ! thanks

 

[rebmcr]

They really are not that interesting but here we go...

1. A train to return after overrunning a platform as long as the overrun is not more than 400m
2. A train to return after taking the wrong route at a junction
3. A train is to make a movement to return from or proceed towards a line blocked by accident, failure, obstruction or other exceptional incident
4. A train cannot continue forward and has to return because it has failed, or cannot be driven from the cab at the leading end
5. A light locomotive or MU is to proceed to assit a failed train
6. The front portion of a divided train is to return to the rear portion
7. An engineering train is to move towards or from a line under possession
8. A shunting movement worked through points controlled by a ground frame
9. Single Line Working is in operation
10. Rail grinding train returning to extinguish a fire

As copied directly from TW7.

5 would appear to be redundant, being wholly covered by 3?

 

[ComUtoR]

5 would appear to be redundant, being wholly covered by 3?

I would say that 5 is specific to Light loco or MU, whereas 3 covers any class of train.

I would also suggest that 'failure' in terms of 3 does not specifically relate to another train or unit. I went wrong road due to a signal failure

 

[signallerscot]

5 would appear to be redundant, being wholly covered by 3?

Clause 5 is there to cover the situation where an assisting train is behind a failed train and has to run on the opposite line in the wrong direction to get round the failure, before returning (also in the wrong direction) to assist it from the front, or indeed to allow any sort of wrong direction movement required specifically to assist a failed train. Clause 3 authorises a train trapped by a failure or obstruction to make a wrong direction movement to get back to somewhere that it can be dealt with and is nothing to do with assisting a failed train.

This is a good example of why non-rules trained people shouldn't really try to interpret the rules, given that they don't have the operational background, training and experience to interpret them correctly. The only one on the list I have never used in my career is number 6.

 

[rebmcr]

This is a good example of why non-rules trained people shouldn't really try to interpret the rules, given that they don't have the operational background, training and experience to interpret them correctly.

OK, I won't ask questions in the future, I'll just assume instead.

 

[Johncleesefan]

OK, I won't ask questions in the future, I'll just assume instead.

Speaking as a driver, I wouldn't actually know the difference in those two either.
Nor would it make a difference to know as long as I understand the move that is to take place