Wrexham redouble

[PHILIPE]

Aren't there going to be additional Chester-Liverpool trains via Halton Curve anyway? If there are also going to be additional Wrexham-Chester trains, it might well be smart to run them through.

The Halton Curve has only recently been announced yet people are already saying what services would be running over before the ink's dry on the proposal. Anything could happen between now and when.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The Halton Curve has only recently been announced yet people are already saying what services would be running over before the ink's dry on the proposal. Anything could happen between now and when.

Having been campaigning for additional Cambrian Trains since 1997 and hopefully fingers crossed getting some this May all I can say is the debate has to be lead because no magic fairy is coming along.

 

[TDK]

Having been campaigning for additional Cambrian Trains since 1997 and hopefully fingers crossed getting some this May all I can say is the debate has to be lead because no magic fairy is coming along.

Do you really think your campaign was directed in the right place as there is a lot more demand for services in North Wales other than the Cambrian that does not see nowhere near the amount of passengers to merit the extant of the extra services, are these extra services funded by WG? If so maybe the money should have been spent on the redouble instead and I mean a complete redouble, not a political nightmare.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Do you really think your campaign was directed in the right place as there is a lot more demand for services in North Wales other than the Cambrian that does not see nowhere near the amount of passengers to merit the extant of the extra services, are these extra services funded by WG? If so maybe the money should have been spent on the redouble instead and I mean a complete redouble, not a political nightmare.

Not sure what North Wales demand you refer to TDK. Holyhead, Bangor, Llandudno, Colwyn Bay, Rhyl, Prestatyn, Flint and Wrexham all have more timetabled trains now than they did in 1997 even if there is some angst about end direction! Aberystwyth and Newtown have remained the same.

The North Wales Coast mainline is over provisioned with services at certain times of the day as you well know. Its turn up and go from Chester just after 0900 every weekday morning heading for North Wales.- cart that fresh air!

Aberystwyth is the busiest station in the UK with a service of just 10 trains a day. Its the same population, hinterland and student size as Bangor which has hourly plus and through trains to London. The Cambrian Mainlines footfall is on a par with that west of Llandudno Junction if not slightly more.

Id love to see the Wrexham to Chester line properly restored but the money used to run 4 extra trains a day on the Cambrian is not the source of its funding.

 

[TDK]

Not sure what North Wales demand you refer to TDK. Holyhead, Bangor, Llandudno, Colwyn Bay, Rhyl, Prestatyn, Flint and Wrexham all have more timetabled trains now than they did in 1997 even if there is some angst about end direction! Aberystwyth and Newtown have remained the same.

The North Wales Coast mainline is over provisioned with services at certain times of the day as you well know. Its turn up and go from Chester just after 0900 every weekday morning heading for North Wales.- cart that fresh air!

Aberystwyth is the busiest station in the UK with a service of just 10 trains a day. Its the same population, hinterland and student size as Bangor which has hourly plus and through trains to London. The Cambrian Mainlines footfall is on a par with that west of Llandudno Junction if not slightly more.

Id love to see the Wrexham to Chester line properly restored but the money used to run 4 extra trains a day on the Cambrian is not the source of its funding.

I now refer to SCRUA siding in with the RMT campaigning regarding the loss of a Wrexham to Birmingham service Gareth, this is now making the user group look as if they are there just to complain about a now better service that you ever had, you campaign for an hourly service to Aber and think the stock will materialise from nothing to maintain the now enhanced service provided to Birmingham? Passengers have to change at Shrewsbury instead and have to get up 15 minutes earlier but at least they have their hourly Aber service that is a useful to passengers as a chocolate fireguard in comparison. I honestly think your user group have shot themselves in the foot here. So Aberystwyth is the busiest station with only 10 trains a day? Do you think it merits an hourly service? Is the Aberystwyth run as busy as the Birmingham run? Sorry Gareth but I think you guys are out of touch with all this.

 

[berneyarms]

Hang on TDK, there are two different user groups here, and I think you're getting confused.

SCRUA for the Chester-Shrewsbury line and SARPA for the Cambrian Line. I'm not sure exactly what your point is?

Are you saying that the Cambrian line doesn't deserve peak time hourly services, after all the infrastructure works that have been done to facilitate it?

 

[TDK]

Hang on TDK, there are two different user groups here, and I think you're getting confused.

SCRUA for the Chester-Shrewsbury line and SARPA for the Cambrian Line. I'm not sure exactly what your point is?

Are you saying that the Cambrian line doesn't deserve peak time hourly services, after all the infrastructure works that have been done to facilitate it?

I am sorry if I have my user groups confused - it seems then that SARPA have a lot more grunt then SCURA and I do feel an hourly Aberystwyth service is lower in the public issue than services to Birmingham, Manchester and Liverpool as this is where many people from North and Central Wales commute to for work. With the Cambrian line using existing stock at the expense of commuter services is wrong and I feel that it is a political move by the WAG other than in the interest of the majority of the regular travellers.

 

[krus_aragon]

It seems that we're going to be in lean times rolling-stock-wise in Wales for a further four years or so. I don't forsee extra regional DMU stock being available until Cardiff-Swansea is electrified, where the introduction of EMUs might allow Manchester-West Wales services to be cut back to Cardiff. Keeping more 175s in North Wales would allow more 158s to be released for Cambrian duties.

Assuming the above is an accurate summary of the state of affairs, and that the rescheduling of the Wrexham service in question is essential to allow extra services on the Cambrian in the morning instead, I cannot agree that the Cambrian extras should be foregone. I don't feel that the introduction of an hourly service to Aberystwyth should be delayed for three years or more lest a group of commuters have to leave 15 minutes earlier and change en-route.(I may reconsider if there are two carriages' worth of Telford/Birmingham passengers boarding before Gobowen, but I am not of this impression.)

The start 15 minutes earlier seems to pale in the face of the objections that had been raised by Manchester commuters from Abergele and Llandudno, who, under original proposals for the December timetable change, would have had to travel an hour earlier. Adaptations to connecting services were made here, but (from memory) they still have to catch a slightly earlier train and/or change en-route.

 

[po8crg]

There's a UK-wide DMU shortage - to the point that there's a new line ready to open but no trains to run on it (Todmorden Chord). Getting enough lines electrified by 2019 to be able to withdraw all the 142s is going to be enough of a challenge, never mind releasing additional DMUs for anything.

If the big electrification programmes go through, there looks to be lots of diesel express stock (222s, HSTs) and perhaps some regional stock (175s, 185s) coming free, but very little in the way of suburban stock (Sprinters, Networkers, Turbostars) as it will all be needed to replace the Pacers.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There's a UK-wide DMU shortage - to the point that there's a new line ready to open but no trains to run on it (Todmorden Chord). Getting enough lines electrified by 2019 to be able to withdraw all the 142s is going to be enough of a challenge, never mind releasing additional DMUs for anything.

If the big electrification programmes go through, there looks to be lots of diesel express stock (222s, HSTs) and perhaps some regional stock (175s, 185s) coming free, but very little in the way of suburban stock (Sprinters, Networkers, Turbostars) as it will all be needed to replace the Pacers.

There should be a surplus of DMUs in the south west from 2017.
The Class 16x cascade should free up more than enough stock to replace FGW's Pacers.
Should be some from Scotrail (EGIP) too at around the same time.
The timing of the W&B refranchising might not help though (2017/18).

 

[merlodlliw]

It seems that we're going to be in lean times rolling-stock-wise in Wales for a further four years or so. I don't forsee extra regional DMU stock being available until Cardiff-Swansea is electrified, where the introduction of EMUs might allow Manchester-West Wales services to be cut back to Cardiff. Keeping more 175s in North Wales would allow more 158s to be released for Cambrian duties.

Assuming the above is an accurate summary of the state of affairs, and that the rescheduling of the Wrexham service in question is essential to allow extra services on the Cambrian in the morning instead, I cannot agree that the Cambrian extras should be foregone. I don't feel that the introduction of an hourly service to Aberystwyth should be delayed for three years or more lest a group of commuters have to leave 15 minutes earlier and change en-route.(I may reconsider if there are two carriages' worth of Telford/Birmingham passengers boarding before Gobowen, but I am not of this impression.)



The start 15 minutes earlier seems to pale in the face of the objections that had been raised by Manchester commuters from Abergele and Llandudno, who, under original proposals for the December timetable change, would have had to travel an hour earlier. Adaptations to connecting services were made here, but (from memory) they still have to catch a slightly earlier train and/or change en-route.

An extra direct train has been put on for Manchester, 0514 from Holyhead this connects with the new 0554 from Llandudno at the Junction,and is 0712 from Chester, this follows within half an hour and another Direct train from Llandudno Junction to Manchester, so it may mean an earlier start,but the trains are direct on to Manchester.
As far as the Wrexham Service is concerned, its earlier with changes,not so on the North Wales/Manchester line.
We may go around the houses with this,but our objective is to retain a Direct Wrexham,/Birmingham peak service, which arrives in Shrewsbury usually full.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I now refer to SCRUA siding in with the RMT campaigning regarding the loss of a Wrexham to Birmingham service Gareth, this is now making the user group look as if they are there just to complain about a now better service that you ever had, you campaign for an hourly service to Aber and think the stock will materialise from nothing to maintain the now enhanced service provided to Birmingham? Passengers have to change at Shrewsbury instead and have to get up 15 minutes earlier but at least they have their hourly Aber service that is a useful to passengers as a chocolate fireguard in comparison. I honestly think your user group have shot themselves in the foot here. So Aberystwyth is the busiest station with only 10 trains a day? Do you think it merits an hourly service? Is the Aberystwyth run as busy as the Birmingham run? Sorry Gareth but I think you guys are out of touch with all this.

First off some housekeeping - I was Chairman of SARPA between 1999 and 2012 which is the RUG for the Cambrian Mainline and Tywyn. Between 2002 & 2005 I was a committee member of the Rail Passenger Council for Wales. I do not speak for SARPA but I know whats going on.

The organization which has canvassed the WG Minister and got the meetings and funding for first a survey,done the survey and then got the decision from the Minister is the Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth Line Liaison Committee which consists of representatives from the local authority's, town and community councils, Aberystwyth University, SARPA and Carno Station Action Group. Local MP's and AM's are invited and kept informed of minutes etc. NR, ATW & BTP are invited to there meetings to give reports take feedback and answer questions. The Chair of Committee is a Labour Councillor from Shrewsbury and the Secretary the town clerk of Welshpool, neither of whom are SARPA members. Clearly there are some leading lights in this and not all politicians or councils contribute as much as others but that's life.

Whats known as the Cambrian hourly service was not and never has been SARPA's idea. In 1997 we were campaigning primarily about overcrowding and trying to get then 0855 arrival into Shrewsbury earlier for commuters. CT said they might find a 153 for summer 1998. We thought if it goes back and forth the whole way a couple of times it wont make much impact. The eastern section is always busier so we though why doesn't the 153 attach/detach at Newtown so the extra capacity is kept where its most needed, you couldn't just leave a unit unattended it would need a crew then we thought why doesn't the 153 shuttle back and forth between Newtown and Shrewsbury between existing trains. CT said they liked the idea. Then instead of implementing we had the DBRW/WDA wanting more trains over the whole line which resulted in local politicians getting involved and the "hourly service" was announced in Dec 99. So we went from a low cost trial that might prove the way for further improvements to something needing expensive infrastructure and lots of extra units. So instead of incremental improvements on the Cambrian mainline we've had 15 years of stakeholders in Ceredigion calling for all way to Aber in one go. Once this hourly service gene got out the bottle its been impossible to get it back in and think incrementally. SARPA's achievable idea was hijacked by "stakeholders" into something that's taken a decade and a half plus.

TDK- is your allegation that the Line Liaison Committee has conspired with WG and ATW to rob a train from the Wrexham line or is it that they've been naive and inadvertently forced the situation?

There have been points in the time frame of the Wales and Border franchise where there has been opportunity to get said stock.

• WG funded two extra 158's above the franchise agreement in 2007 specially to deal with Cambrian over crowding but ATW stretched the franchise boundary to BHM INTL in 2008 needing 2 extra units to do so.

• ATW were sub leasing 5 Class 150's to FGW at one point also

.

• Virgins high frequency tt launch in 2008 when there was opportunity to assess its impact on existing services patterns along the North Wales Coast was never taken just extra trains piled on top of one another.

• ATW seemed confident that they had the extra stock to run there proposed Marylebone service didn't they?

As to your assessment of demand on the Cambrian, average loadings on Cambrian mainline trains are above the UK national average and two and half that the ATW average. We know through local knowledge and the 2014 survey that theirs latent untapped demand into Shrewsbury from the Upper Severn Valley in the AM and in the return direction in the PM. Personally I would have been happy with an extra 0630 & 0830 departure from Aberystwyth and 1630 & 1830 departures from Shrewsbury as a start. However what we've got has been influenced by the Ceredigion stakeholders and the need to include them.
When I started out in 1997 there was no empirical evidence to say what happens to rural lines when you double there frequency. Thankfully in England there are several lines that have done this and it can be proven that the answer is a 58% increase on average in the first 3 years after implementation. This provable fact was used in the case to WG.

 

[merlodlliw]

Very well put Gareth, and gives an insite into what was really required,When Politicians get involved , they become oblivious to new services carrying fresh air,so long as the train departs from/to their patch and they can claim it was their idea.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Very well put Gareth, and gives an insite into what was really required,When Politicians get involved , they become oblivious to new services carrying fresh air,so long as the train departs from/to their patch and they can claim it was their idea.

I still have the reply from Central Trains costing the "Newtown Shuttle" using a 153 @ £450K per annum! 1998 prices!

But try and do anything incremental and "Ceredigion" chucks its dummy out if not included, there certainly a factor in the delay. The creation of the Wales and Border franchise is perhaps the biggest though. We also went from having railwaymen at Central Trains and the interim Wales and Border franchise who "got" what we were doing to ATW and their corporate attitude - it certainly hasn't helped.

If the franchise boundaries had not been interfered with by the SRA I'm sure we would have had something incremental out of CT in the early 2000's with maybe an extra train or two for Ceredigion. Those that campaigned for the Wales and Border franchise must share some of the blame and that includes Railfuture!

 

[D1009]

Personally I would have been happy with an extra 0630 & 0830 departure from Aberystwyth and 1630 & 1830 departures from Shrewsbury as a start. However what we've got has been influenced by the Ceredigion stakeholders and the need to include them.

Isn't it the case that the requirement to fulfil your preference in terms of extra units is exactly the same as what we now have?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Isn't it the case that the requirement to fulfil your preference in terms of extra units is exactly the same as what we now have?

Sorry should have said 0630 from Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury that returns to Newtown to form 0940 ish from there and a 1630 to Newtown from Shrewsbury that returns to Shrewsbury to form a 1830 from there.

One unit - Upper Severn Valley has a peak hourly service into Shrewsbury and Aber gets extra trains.

 

[berneyarms]

An extra direct train has been put on for Manchester, 0514 from Holyhead this connects with the new 0554 from Llandudno at the Junction,and is 0712 from Chester, this follows within half an hour and another Direct train from Llandudno Junction to Manchester, so it may mean an earlier start,but the trains are direct on to Manchester.
As far as the Wrexham Service is concerned, its earlier with changes,not so on the North Wales/Manchester line.
We may go around the houses with this,but our objective is to retain a Direct Wrexham,/Birmingham peak service, which arrives in Shrewsbury usually full.

What changed in North Wales in December 2014 is (leaving aside minor timing changes):

Additional Llandudno Junction-Llandudno service at 05:40
Additional Llandudno-Llandudno Junction service at 05:54

05:14 Holyhead-Chester-Crewe-Shrewsbury-Birmingham diverted to Manchester in path of former 07:12 Chester-Manchester; No replacement between Chester & Crewe
07:12 Chester-Manchester replaced by train above

06:34 Llandudno-Manchester deferred to 06:46 and diverted to Crewe in path of 07:55 Chester-Crewe
07:55 Chester-Crewe replaced by train above
07:38 Chester-Manchester loco hauled train introduced (to replace 06:34 Llandudno-Manchester between Chester and Manchester)

07:23 Crewe-Chester replaced by 07:11 Crewe-Chester loco hauled train

07:34 Crewe-Shrewsbury-Birmingham introduced in path of 05:14 ex-Holyhead

09:50 Manchester-Llandudno diverted to Holyhead (with no connection to Llandudno) as loco hauled stock

10:50 Manchester-Bangor curtailed to Llandudno Junction

12:08 Llandudno-Llandudno Junction and 12:28 Llandudno Junction-Llandudno cancelled

12:43 Llandudno-Manchester now starts at Llandudno Junction at 12:53

13:01 Holyhead-Manchester introduced (loco hauled) replacing 13:31 Bangor-Manchester

16:50 Manchester-Llandudno is now loco hauled
19:13 Llandudno-Llandudno Junction and 19:28 Llandudno Junction-Llandudno cancelled
19:42 Llandudno-Manchester advanced to 19:34 and diverted to Crewe (loco hauled)
20:50 Chester-Manchester added

I would respectfully suggest that actually Llandudno has lost more trains than anywhere!

 

[TDK]

What changed in North Wales in December 2014 is (leaving aside minor timing changes):
05:14 Holyhead-Chester-Crewe-Shrewsbury-Birmingham diverted to Manchester in path of former 07:12 Chester-Manchester
07:12 Chester-Manchester replaced by train above
I would respectfully suggest that actually Llandudno has lost more trains than anywhere!

The 7.12 still runs I believe. It used to be formed from a Shrewsbury arrival and a set berthed overnight, now it is formed from the same Shrewsbury arrival and an arrival from Holyhead utilising a service train instead of a train not being used.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

First off some housekeeping - I was Chairman of SARPA between 1999 and 2012 which is the RUG for the Cambrian Mainline and Tywyn. Between 2002 & 2005 I was a committee member of the Rail Passenger Council for Wales. I do not speak for SARPA but I know whats going on.

The organization which has canvassed the WG Minister and got the meetings and funding for first a survey,done the survey and then got the decision from the Minister is the Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth Line Liaison Committee which consists of representatives from the local authority's, town and community councils, Aberystwyth University, SARPA and Carno Station Action Group. Local MP's and AM's are invited and kept informed of minutes etc. NR, ATW & BTP are invited to there meetings to give reports take feedback and answer questions. The Chair of Committee is a Labour Councillor from Shrewsbury and the Secretary the town clerk of Welshpool, neither of whom are SARPA members. Clearly there are some leading lights in this and not all politicians or councils contribute as much as others but that's life.

Whats known as the Cambrian hourly service was not and never has been SARPA's idea. In 1997 we were campaigning primarily about overcrowding and trying to get then 0855 arrival into Shrewsbury earlier for commuters. CT said they might find a 153 for summer 1998. We thought if it goes back and forth the whole way a couple of times it wont make much impact. The eastern section is always busier so we though why doesn't the 153 attach/detach at Newtown so the extra capacity is kept where its most needed, you couldn't just leave a unit unattended it would need a crew then we thought why doesn't the 153 shuttle back and forth between Newtown and Shrewsbury between existing trains. CT said they liked the idea. Then instead of implementing we had the DBRW/WDA wanting more trains over the whole line which resulted in local politicians getting involved and the "hourly service" was announced in Dec 99. So we went from a low cost trial that might prove the way for further improvements to something needing expensive infrastructure and lots of extra units. So instead of incremental improvements on the Cambrian mainline we've had 15 years of stakeholders in Ceredigion calling for all way to Aber in one go. Once this hourly service gene got out the bottle its been impossible to get it back in and think incrementally. SARPA's achievable idea was hijacked by "stakeholders" into something that's taken a decade and a half plus.

TDK- is your allegation that the Line Liaison Committee has conspired with WG and ATW to rob a train from the Wrexham line or is it that they've been naive and inadvertently forced the situation?

There have been points in the time frame of the Wales and Border franchise where there has been opportunity to get said stock.

• WG funded two extra 158's above the franchise agreement in 2007 specially to deal with Cambrian over crowding but ATW stretched the franchise boundary to BHM INTL in 2008 needing 2 extra units to do so.

• ATW were sub leasing 5 Class 150's to FGW at one point also

.

• Virgins high frequency tt launch in 2008 when there was opportunity to assess its impact on existing services patterns along the North Wales Coast was never taken just extra trains piled on top of one another.

• ATW seemed confident that they had the extra stock to run there proposed Marylebone service didn't they?

As to your assessment of demand on the Cambrian, average loadings on Cambrian mainline trains are above the UK national average and two and half that the ATW average. We know through local knowledge and the 2014 survey that theirs latent untapped demand into Shrewsbury from the Upper Severn Valley in the AM and in the return direction in the PM. Personally I would have been happy with an extra 0630 & 0830 departure from Aberystwyth and 1630 & 1830 departures from Shrewsbury as a start. However what we've got has been influenced by the Ceredigion stakeholders and the need to include them.
When I started out in 1997 there was no empirical evidence to say what happens to rural lines when you double there frequency. Thankfully in England there are several lines that have done this and it can be proven that the answer is a 58% increase on average in the first 3 years after implementation. This provable fact was used in the case to WG.

Excellent post and it is good for this to be explained. We will see if there is a 58% increase but then again you cannot go on percentage increases as this depends on the average amount of passengers travelling for example if there were 100 passengers you would need 58 more to travel for the 58% but if there were 1000 you would need 580 extra. I still feel that the demand is much higher between Chester and Birmingham via Wrexham peak and feel that the HHD - CDF direct service would be better with a change at Shrewsbury with a new timetable to accommodate this, I know there has been a campaign for the hourly Aberystwyth service but feel the stock would be a lot more useful for the travelling public elsewhere.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The 7.12 still runs I believe. It used to be formed from a Shrewsbury arrival and a set berthed overnight, now it is formed from the same Shrewsbury arrival and an arrival from Holyhead utilising a service train instead of a train not being used.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Excellent post and it is good for this to be explained. We will see if there is a 58% increase but then again you cannot go on percentage increases as this depends on the average amount of passengers travelling for example if there were 100 passengers you would need 58 more to travel for the 58% but if there were 1000 you would need 580 extra. I still feel that the demand is much higher between Chester and Birmingham via Wrexham peak and feel that the HHD - CDF direct service would be better with a change at Shrewsbury with a new timetable to accommodate this, I know there has been a campaign for the hourly Aberystwyth service but feel the stock would be a lot more useful for the travelling public elsewhere.

Usage on the Cambrian mainline is c900,00 per annum in footfall. Wrexham County including the Bidston line has a footfall of just over 800,000 per annum. ATW have an average load of 46 passengers Cambrian trains leaving Shrewsbury have 116 average. The point with the 58% is that this is what the evidence from the lines in Devon and Cornwall and East Anglia average out at there's some more some less. That is the evidence we have.

Of course usage between Shrewsbury and Chester would be helped if your trains went where demand is. I think the main service on that line should be an hourly Liverpool Lime St to BHM INTL service. More people travel from the Cambrian to London and the South East than travel between north and South Wales can we have 9 direct trains please?

 

[merlodlliw]

What changed in North Wales in December 2014 is (leaving aside minor timing changes):
Additional Llandudno Junction-Llandudno service at 05:40
Additional Llandudno-Llandudno Junction service at 05:54
05:14 Holyhead-Chester-Crewe-Shrewsbury-Birmingham diverted to Manchester in path of former 07:12 Chester-Manchester
07:12 Chester-Manchester replaced by train above
06:34 Llandudno-Manchester deferred to 06:46 and diverted to Crewe in path of 07:55 Chester-Crewe
07:55 Chester-Crewe replaced by train above
07:23 Crewe-Chester replaced by 07:11 Crewe-Chester loco hauled train
07:38 Additional Chester-Manchester loco hauled train introduced
07:34 Crewe-Shrewsbury-Birmingham introduced in path of 05:14 ex-Holyhead
09:50 Manchester-Llandudno diverted to Holyhead (with no connection to Llandudno) as loco hauled stock
10:50 Manchester-Bangor curtailed to Llandudno Junction
12:08 Llandudno-Llandudno Junction and 12:28 Llandudno Junction-Llandudno cancelled
12:43 Llandudno-Manchester now starts at Llandudno Junction at 12:53
13:01 Holyhead-Manchester introduced (loco hauled) replacing 13:31 Bangor-Manchester
16:50 Manchester-Llandudno is now loco hauled
19:13 Llandudno-Llandudno Junction and 19:28 Llandudno Junction-Llandudno cancelled
19:42 Llandudno-Manchester advanced to 19:34 and diverted to Crewe (loco hauled)
20:50 Chester-Manchester added

I would respectfully suggest that actually Llandudno has lost more trains than anywhere!

Indeed Llandudno has been downgraded,however I dont recall anyone bothered about middle day trains being axed, Colwyn Bay lost out when the 0950 went loco hauled from Manchester to Holyhead.
As for the 0738 from Chester this is not an additional service, it is simply the old 0740 175,gone loco hauled.

 

[merlodlliw]

The 7.12 still runs I believe. It used to be formed from a Shrewsbury arrival and a set berthed overnight, now it is formed from the same Shrewsbury arrival and an arrival from Holyhead utilising a service train instead of a train not being used.

That is correct,its a four coach 158 ex Chester,the 0602 out of Wrexham joins up at Chester with the 0514 ex Holyhead.

 

[pablo]

This controversy makes me wonder if the border is in the right place? Perhaps it should be Offa's Dyke!

 

[berneyarms]

The 7.12 still runs I believe. It used to be formed from a Shrewsbury arrival and a set berthed overnight, now it is formed from the same Shrewsbury arrival and an arrival from Holyhead utilising a service train instead of a train not being used.

Em, that's what I said. It runs as a through service as the 05:14 from Holyhead (with an additional unit joining at Chester), rather than starting at Chester.

 

[merlodlliw]

This article appeared in the Wrexham Leader today,I find it difficult to understand why the work could extend to 2016.Over a year late now.

Wrexham Leader 31 January 2015 | Published by: Staff reporter

DELAYS to work on a level crossing which could hold back developments on the railway line have been branded a “disgrace”.

Work by Network Rail to ‘dual’ the line between Chester and Wrexham could face delays of up to a year after problems with work at the Broad Oak level crossing between Burton and Rossett.

Cllr Hugh Jones, who represents Rossett on Wrexham Council, said: “Very simply, the performance of Network Rail in terms of the pre-planning has been a disgrace.

“They failed to get on to these issues at the pre-planning stages. They’re just not planning this clearly at all.

“The local community has no idea what is happening.”

The work, commissioned last year by the Welsh Government, is part of £44m worth of improvements to improve rail links between North and South Wales.

Launched in June last year, senior officials were hopeful it would be complete by early this year.

But Network Rail has confirmed it will not be completed until the end of 2015 or early in 2016, due to the delays at the Rossett and Burton level crossing.

Once completed, the work will allow more trains to run through Wrexham and reduce journey times.

Ian Lucas, MP for Wrexham, said: “The most important thing is that the work gets done rather than being done quickly – but obviously I’m disappointed there’s a delay.”

He added he would continue to push for the doubling of the line as far as Wrexham Station, rather than just the Rossett junction.

A spokesperson from Network Rail said: “As part of the Welsh Government-funded project to reduce journey times between North and South Wales, Network Rail will be upgrading four level crossings between Wrexham and Chester.

“The work will see the crossings upgraded from half barrier to full crossing barriers which will allow for more frequent and faster journeys for passengers between North and South Wales.

“As part of this work, our plans for upgrading Broad Oak level crossing will now include the installation of an obstacle detection system.

“The changes to our programme of works for Broad Oak have resulted in a delay to the overall scheme and we now anticipate completing all work by late 2015 or early 2016.

“We’d like to thank the public for bearing with us whilst we carry out these improvements and apologise for any inconvenience this may cause.”

link http://www.leaderlive.co.uk/news/143678/line-upgrade-delay-over-crossing-is-a-disgrace-.aspx

 

[pablo]

What is pre-planning? Is that the pipe-dreaming stage? How do you plan before you've planned, or. plan to plan? I'm lost.....

 

[merlodlliw]

=pablo;2062353]What is pre-planning? Is that the pipe-dreaming stage? How do you plan before you've planned, or. plan to plan? I'm lost.....

Thats County Cllr speak, Broad Oak was down for a Bridge, so NR told us,then it was changed to a Level crossing,it would appear shutting a road for a year was unacceptable for the bridge, plus the cost was way out of budget,I have some sympathy for the residents, so it now looks like May 2016 timetable before the current work is finished,As for NRs media spin "Once completed, the work will allow more trains to run through Wrexham and reduce journey times."

More trains through Wrexham is an extra path an hour,4 in place of 3 and reduction of journey times only applies between Wrexham and Chester,not Chester to Wrexham.

 

[TDK]

Thats County Cllr speak, Broad Oak was down for a Bridge, so NR told us,then it was changed to a Level crossing,it would appear shutting a road for a year was unacceptable for the bridge, plus the cost was way out of budget,I have some sympathy for the residents, so it now looks like May 2016 timetable before the current work is finished,As for NRs media spin "Once completed, the work will allow more trains to run through Wrexham and reduce journey times."

More trains through Wrexham is an extra path an hour,4 in place of 3 and reduction of journey times only applies between Wrexham and Chester,not Chester to Wrexham.

As I quoted many moons ago Bob a complete waste of taxpayers money. No matter what they do it will hardly improve anything

 

[merlodlliw]

As I quoted many moons ago Bob a complete waste of taxpayers money. No matter what they do it will hardly improve anything

I have to agree with you, its now become farce,unless its a total redouble like Gowerton,this is just playing with taxpayers money,which will soon run out.

The problems at Broad Oak should have been foreseen before the job started,not half way through it.So much for devolved Network Rail,Wales.

 

[pablo]

We can always adjust the constituency boundaries.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

The problems at Broad Oak should have been foreseen before the job started,not half way through it.So much for devolved Network Rail,Wales.

Yes, definitely....at the pre-planning stage........