Wrexham redouble

[TDK]

Bobs point has always been that ATW gave up a franchised train path to VT (to try and scupper Wrexham and Shropshire) for some reason VT don't want it on a Bank Holiday so ATW should run the service on the bank holiday as they did before giving the path to VT. There has always been confusion in the printed and online planners over the Bank Holiday service seemingly at nearly every tt change.

If ATW did run a train in this path would they have to pay VT for the use of the path?

 

[merlodlliw]

Well I do think you're going a tad OTT about it.


Printed timetables are no longer the main source of information for the vast majority of people - times have changed. There are very few people left with no access to the internet - I think you're making a bit of a mountain out of a molehill here.

I'm not defending the mistakes, but as someone who has helped in proof-reading timetables in the past, they are something that can happen even with three or four people checking them.

Perhaps I am going over the top,but the consultative timetable released in Aug/Sept to stakeholders and customers for Dec/May2015, showed the 2022 omission on Bank Holiday, I myself,SCRUA and the Dee/Seven rail partnership reported the omission to ATW, at the time the stakeholder Manager wrote to us all,thanking us for spotting the error and assured us the train would appear in the timetables, this was not the case, the Manager only in place a short time wrote back saying if VT did not run the service ATW would,he was also unaware ATW had given up the paths to VT.
Has we are about to loose a busy morning commuter train from Wrexham to Birmingham next May,we are on our guard to protect services.
I shall most certainly raise the issue at Shrewsbury on January 13th at the Welsh Government rail debate about services in North Wales.
Ill leave at that for now,lucky we have the support of two local AMs who are in current dialog with ATW over services,
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If ATW did run a train in this path would they have to pay VT for the use of the path?

Thats an interesting point, but its not a VT franchise service anyway,I always knew when ATW gave up the two paths, it would come back to haunt them.
Has VT dont run the service on bank holidays and some other days,I fail to see why ATW should pay VT by running a service for the passenger,who should be the first consideration.

 

[berneyarms]

I understand all of the points made above, and the important points being raised.

Bob is quite right to remind ATW of the need to operate this service, and to make sure that the mistake in the timetable is corrected in future. But I don't think making the claim here (repeated on several occasions) that they are losing a bank holiday service, when a written assurance was made to the contrary, is really helpful. Realtimetrains and National Rail Enquiries both now confirm that it will operate.

The lack of the train in the printed timetable to me looks to me like nothing more than a simple human error. Nothing more than that. Sometimes things like this slip through the net, even with several people informing the transport companies, and several people checking them. It shouldn't happen but it can.

I suspect that it will be fixed the next time!

As for 07:47 - again, an alternative is being provided - ok it's maybe 10-15 minutes earlier, and yes it's probably not ideal, but the people that use it are not being abandoned. I've yet to come across any timetable change that pleases everyone - the key is that an alternative is provided and that is being done.

 

[pablo]

Bob, I apprecaite you have a translation problem. Try swopping your 'has's with your 'as's. You've got them the wrong way around. Has is the verb; as is the conjunction.
Then, I won't have a translation problem!

 

[merlodlliw]

I understand all of the points made above, and the important points being raised.

Bob is quite right to remind ATW of the need to operate this service, and to make sure that the mistake in the timetable is corrected in future. But I don't think making the claim here (repeated on several occasions) that they are losing a bank holiday service, when a written assurance was made to the contrary, is really helpful. Realtimetrains and National Rail Enquiries both now confirm that it will operate.

The lack of the train in the printed timetable to me looks to me like nothing more than a simple human error. Nothing more than that. Sometimes things like this slip through the net, even with several people informing the transport companies, and several people checking them. It shouldn't happen but it can.

I suspect that it will be fixed the next time!

As for 07:47 - again, an alternative is being provided - ok it's maybe 10-15 minutes earlier, and yes it's probably not ideal, but the people that use it are not being abandoned. I've yet to come across any timetable change that pleases everyone - the key is that an alternative is provided and that is being done.

I was told ATW are looking at sending a unit from Crewe/Chester/Wrexham/Birmingham, ex Wrexham 0747, this came from an ATW Manager, it appears ATW are not liking the bad publicity being generated over axing the Wrexham Service and adding around five minutes to "Geralds"
running time to Cardiff, due to extra stops.

With regard to the timetable omission,three letters were sent to ATW following the timetable consultation,SCRUA/Dee/Severn rail partnership and myself, I do think a red circle should have been applied for guidance,anyhow too late now.

 

[berneyarms]

I was told ATW are looking at sending a unit from Crewe/Chester/Wrexham/Birmingham, ex Wrexham 0747, this came from an ATW Manager, it appears ATW are not liking the bad publicity being generated over axing the Wrexham Service and adding around five minutes to "Geralds"
running time to Cardiff, due to extra stops.

With regard to the timetable omission,three letters were sent to ATW following the timetable consultation,SCRUA/Dee/Severn rail partnership and myself, I do think a red circle should have been applied for guidance,anyhow too late now.

Interesting - I'll be very interested to see how they plan on juggling sets around to do this.

 

[PHILIPE]

Interesting - I'll be very interested to see how they plan on juggling sets around to do this.

I'm wondering if it will be the 06 40 Crewe to Shrewsbury and which attaches to 05 30 ex Aberystwyth at Shrewsbury and reverting back to 4 Carriages on it. The Salop Crewe local 153 could cover the 06 40 ex Crewe or withdraw and put stops in a Manchester to West Wales. Wait and see.

 

[berneyarms]

It would presumably link in with the 04:38 Llandudno Junction/Crewe and 06:54 Crewe/Holyhead services somehow if it were to operate from Wrexham at 07:47.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Interesting - I'll be very interested to see how they plan on juggling sets around to do this.

As I've always said the North Wales Coast is overloaded at certain times for the market, does ATW really need to overnight 6 DMU's at Holyhead when VT run 4 services to Euston pre 0900 from Holyhead? Holyhead has as many departures pre 0900 as Aberystwyth gets all day but only has half the usage.

 

[berneyarms]

As I've always said the North Wales Coast is overloaded at certain times for the market, does ATW really need to overnight 6 DMU's at Holyhead when VT run 4 services to Euston pre 0900 from Holyhead? Holyhead has as many departures pre 0900 as Aberystwyth gets all day but only has half the usage.

This is part of the problem - people want direct trains to everywhere, hence there are so many trains along the North Wales coast.

Some of those five DMUs (it's five DMUs and one loco hauled train) could arguably start at either Llandudno or indeed Chester (taking connections out of Virgin services there) instead.

But then you'd have people at smaller stations giving out about losing services.

Arguably you could also ask does Wrexham need two trains to Shrewsbury within 15 minutes of one another. Realistically the answer is probably no, but people don't want to change trains.

North Wales needs a complete recast with both operators' services far better integrated to deliver a regular timetable, improved services to/from Llandudno (incredible that it has no winter Sunday service), and improved connections with ferries at Holyhead.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

This is part of the problem - people want direct trains to everywhere, hence there are so many trains along the North Wales coast.

Some of those five DMUs (it's five DMUs and one loco hauled train) could arguably start at either Llandudno or indeed Chester (taking connections out of Virgin services there) instead.

But then you'd have people at smaller stations giving out about losing services.

Arguably you could also ask does Wrexham need two trains to Shrewsbury within 15 minutes of one another. Realistically the answer is probably no, but people don't want to change trains.

North Wales needs a complete recast with both operators' services far better integrated to deliver a regular timetable, improved services to/from Llandudno (incredible that it has no winter Sunday service), and improved connections with ferries at Holyhead.

New franchises start 2017 (ICWC) and 2018 (W&B), so now's the time.
But the government depts (DfT and WG) will be coming at it from different views, and recently they have not been on the same page about anything.

Any changes to ICWC would be downwards, threatening the Holyhead base (that won't go down well locally).
You would end up with everything starting from Chester, except maybe for off-peak services which turned round somewhere like the current Bangor terminators or the double-Voyager Holyhead diagram.
Then there's the Liverpool prospect via Halton Curve, and the impact of potential electrification.
Are the big brains up to it?

 

[berneyarms]

New franchises start 2017 (ICWC) and 2018 (W&B), so now's the time.
But the government depts (DfT and WG) will be coming at it from different views, and recently they have not been on the same page about anything.

Any changes to ICWC would be downwards, threatening the Holyhead base (that won't go down well locally).
You would end up with everything starting from Chester, except maybe for off-peak services which turned round somewhere like the current Bangor terminators or the double-Voyager Holyhead diagram.
Then there's the Liverpool prospect via Halton Curve, and the impact of potential electrification.
Are the big brains up to it?

I am not suggesting cutting back the VT services along the Welsh coast.

However, I cannot see any justification for the level of service at certain times of the day along the route. For example, from Holyhead the 04:25 ATW service to Cardiff and 04:48 VT service to Euston arrive at Chester within 8 minutes of each other - are they both needed? Could the VT service make additional calls at Prestatyn and Flint? Surely the ATW service could start at Chester taking a connection from the VT service?

Surely a better service pattern can be created that would offer better value for money and ensure that every station still has a service commensurate with usage.

 

[davetheguard]

O.K., I admit it, I haven't been paying full attention. But as this thread now runs to 47 pages, could someone in the know please answer a question for me, and save me ploughing back through it all?

Is the redoubled section of track now in use; and does the new Winter timetable have anything passing on this new section?

Thanks in advance.....

 

[Gareth Marston]

This is part of the problem - people want direct trains to everywhere, hence there are so many trains along the North Wales coast.

Some of those five DMUs (it's five DMUs and one loco hauled train) could arguably start at either Llandudno or indeed Chester (taking connections out of Virgin services there) instead.

But then you'd have people at smaller stations giving out about losing services.

Arguably you could also ask does Wrexham need two trains to Shrewsbury within 15 minutes of one another. Realistically the answer is probably no, but people don't want to change trains.

North Wales needs a complete recast with both operators' services far better integrated to deliver a regular timetable, improved services to/from Llandudno (incredible that it has no winter Sunday service), and improved connections with ferries at Holyhead.

Must be the only stretch of line in the UK that tries to have trains to everywhere and what a dogs dinner it is diverting resources from other lines.

It's not a question of trains to Shrewsbury the natural flow at the south end of the S to C line is onward to Telford, Wolverhampton, Birmingham and London.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

O.K., I admit it, I haven't been paying full attention. But as this thread now runs to 47 pages, could someone in the know please answer a question for me, and save me ploughing back through it all?

Is the redoubled section of track now in use; and does the new Winter timetable have anything passing on this new section?

Thanks in advance.....

No and no Dave sorry!

 

[merlodlliw]

This is part of the problem - people want direct trains to everywhere, hence there are so many trains along the North Wales coast.

Some of those five DMUs (it's five DMUs and one loco hauled train) could arguably start at either Llandudno or indeed Chester (taking connections out of Virgin services there) instead.

But then you'd have people at smaller stations giving out about losing services.

Arguably you could also ask does Wrexham need two trains to Shrewsbury within 15 minutes of one another. Realistically the answer is probably no, but people don't want to change trains.

North Wales needs a complete recast with both operators' services far better integrated to deliver a regular timetable, improved services to/from Llandudno (incredible that it has no winter Sunday service), and improved connections with ferries at Holyhead.

Before "Gerald" came along the 90 plus years service from Wrexham to Birmingham started at Birkenhead or lately Holyhead, we have always had a train around this time slot, Does Wrexham need a train to Shrewsbury within 15 minutes,most likely no,but we have other stations in between to consider.The services need a good sort out, does my old town of Rhyl require four trains to Chester within an hour,certainly no,more recent does Wellington and Telford require a train to Wolves within six minutes of each other,certainly no,I appreciate Telford is a big town.
Anyhow the 0747 is not gone yet,I gain the impression a key Minister at Welsh Government is now on board,actually the Rail Minister who is non too pleased to be getting the blame,the Crewe/Wrexham idea is being taken seriously within ATW, The Wrexham Cllr in charge of the Counties rail services,a railman himself has also heard this from an ATW colleague.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

O.K., I admit it, I haven't been paying full attention. But as this thread now runs to 47 pages, could someone in the know please answer a question for me, and save me ploughing back through it all?

Is the redoubled section of track now in use; and does the new Winter timetable have anything passing on this new section?

Thanks in advance.....

Gareth responded to you, the redouble is now running half a year late,completion of this phase around July/August. So the May timetable will be missed.

 

[The Planner]

It would miss the start of it, no reason why they cant take advantage when it opens, they arent stuck until December.

 

[merlodlliw]

It would miss the start of it, no reason why they cant take advantage when it opens, they arent stuck until December.

That would mean bringing out a new timetable,with no guarantee of finish date that would be difficult, after all it is only allowing 4 in paths in place 3 paths an hour.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is the redoubled section of track now in use; and does the new Winter timetable have anything passing on this new section?

No. What's happened so far is that the old track under the A483 has been slewed to the east.
New (unused) track has been laid on the west side from a new junction at Rossett as far as Balderton (except through level crossings).
Saltney Junction has been doubled in readiness.
What's left is to lay the 2nd (eastern) track from Saltney to Balderton and complete the missing bits of the western track (and upgrade all the level crossings).
They'll also need to replace a few miles of old jointed track in the existing line.

 

[merlodlliw]

No. What's happened so far is that the old track under the A483 has been slewed to the east.
New (unused) track has been laid on the west side from a new junction at Rossett as far as Balderton (except through level crossings).
Saltney Junction has been doubled in readiness.
What's left is to lay the 2nd (eastern) track from Saltney to Balderton and complete the missing bits of the western track (and upgrade all the level crossings).
They'll also need to replace a few miles of old jointed track in the existing line.

Wont the double track have differing line speeds,due to the junction at Rossett.

 

[berneyarms]

That would mean bringing out a new timetable,with no guarantee of finish date that would be difficult, after all it is only allowing 4 in paths in place 3 paths an hour.

Why?

There is nothing better than a published deadline to focus minds.

It's perfectly possible to have a timetable change mid-timetable, although the old chestnut of where the rolling stock will come from raises its head again!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Wont the double track have differing line speeds,due to the junction at Rossett.

As I understand it, only the newly laid track will support 90mph.
So where the old track stays the current 60mph limit will remain (and 60mph through the new Rossett Jn and up the hill to Wrexham).

 

[The Informer]

As I understand it, only the newly laid track will support 90mph.
So where the old track stays the current 60mph limit will remain (and 60mph through the new Rossett Jn and up the hill to Wrexham).

They best come up with a solution for Broad Oak LC first!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Does anyone know any more about the extra £10m Aled Roberts and his Lib Dem party secured for extra capacity between Wrexham and North West?

 

[merlodlliw]

Why?

There is nothing better than a published deadline to focus minds.

It's perfectly possible to have a timetable change mid-timetable, although the old chestnut of where the rolling stock will come from raises its head again!

Has I understand it,NR in its contracts has the ability to extend deadlines without penalty, running six months late and counting on a £44M job would not be tolerated in the real world, I also recall the ETMS on the Cambrian was two years late.

Yes you can have a timetable change at any time, but notice must be given first in this instance its franchise service,so WG and stakeholders have to be consulted.

 

[pablo]

Over the past years Contractors have become increasingly wary of liquidated damages clauses, for delay, in the contracts. Mainly because, increasingly, the scope of work is ill-defined at the outset and the risks are increasingly un-quantifiable.

It has got to the stage where certain Contractors will only work on cost-reimbursement and no 'penalties'.

Put that in your hat and eat it.

 

[The Planner]

Yes you can have a timetable change at any time, but notice must be given first in this instance its franchise service,so WG and stakeholders have to be consulted.

Depends what and how much you are changing. Most TOCs will spot bid changes all through the timetable (FGW have a great time doing this....), some have spot bid changes for May 2015 already.

 

[merlodlliw]

They best come up with a solution for Broad Oak LC first!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Does anyone know any more about the extra £10m Aled Roberts and his Lib Dem party secured for extra capacity between Wrexham and North West?

Broad Oak is becoming a nightmare, has for the £10million I am told we may expect an announcement late January/February.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Over the past years Contractors have become increasingly wary of liquidated damages clauses, for delay, in the contracts. Mainly because, increasingly, the scope of work is ill-defined at the outset and the risks are increasingly un-quantifiable.

It has got to the stage where certain Contractors will only work on cost-reimbursement and no 'penalties'.

Put that in your hat and eat it.

The scope of work was defiantly ill defined, on this job, NRs head in Wales told AMs at a meeting the track would be laid by a specialist machine, this was then changed to pick and shovel, I am fully aware NR did not want the contract in the first place, which has become a farce, speed 90MPH is expected on the dualed down line to Chester, but remains 60MPH on the up line, so Cardiff/Birmingham bound trains gain no advantage in speed or time.

 

[TDK]

Broad Oak is becoming a nightmare, has for the £10million I am told we may expect an announcement late January/February.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The scope of work was defiantly ill defined, on this job, NRs head in Wales told AMs at a meeting the track would be laid by a specialist machine, this was then changed to pick and shovel, I am fully aware NR did not want the contract in the first place, which has become a farce, speed 90MPH is expected on the dualed down line to Chester, but remains 60MPH on the up line, so Cardiff/Birmingham bound trains gain no advantage in speed or time.

Why are the up lines and down lines so different in linespeed?

 

[merlodlliw]

Why are the up lines and down lines so different in linespeed?

I am sure LNW/GW Joint will explain fully, I understand the points at Rossett have something to do with it,

 

[merlodlliw]

Overrunning work and a failed freight train today has seen all trains between Wrexham and Chester cancelled this morning.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Why are the up lines and down lines so different in linespeed?

From what I have read, the work to upgrade the unaltered 60mph single track sections was axed from the contract, to get the costs down to the number NR first thought of.
That means only the new track sections, and the short jointed track sections which are being replaced, are being built for 90mph.
The rest (Pulford-Rossett southbound, Balderton-Saltney Jn northbound) will stay at the exisiting 60mph.
Hopefully when they have reviewed the plans a more consistent line speed will be achieved over the whole line.
As of last week, the 2 jointed track sections which are 50 years old (north of Rossett and under the A55) are still there.
I'm not sure what work they were doing last night which overran this morning.