Wrexham redouble

[Gareth Marston]

Well there's two other threads in their own right.

Firstly the infrastructure spend without any accompanying plan for trains on it. Ie Halton Curve, north to south wales, Todmoden curve and cambrian till recently.

And

Secondly the race to the north(Wales) thread who gets trains running over their infrastructure first the "red" corner and it's hourly train from Cardiff to Holyhead or the "blue" corner with its Liverpool to Wrexham and Liverpool to North Wales coast proposals.

 

[krus_aragon]

...and ATW do not as yet have stock to run the service, they didn't have the stock for an extra class 150 on the Bidston line to extend the Birkenhead if I remember correctly.

Whenabouts was this proposed? It seems to have passed me by.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Whenabouts was this proposed? It seems to have passed me by.

One of the rail projects ATW were asked to cost up when Plaid were in government around 2008, the only ones that went ahead were Gerald and the extras to Fishguard plus the Cambrian infrastructure with no extra trains. Off the top of my head others on the shopping list were extending Aberdare to Hirwuan, Ebbw Vale to Newport, Abergaveeny turn back, extra HoW trains

 

[TDK]

Whenabouts was this proposed? It seems to have passed me by.

It was not proposed it was just looked at as an option and unfortunately there was not the stock or staff available to even propose it.

 

[merlodlliw]

Letter released today to all AMs, £44millions down the drain and closing of ranks. One extra train every two hours Wrexham to Chester is pathetic.
No wonder no one in North East Wales who uses the trains were ever consulted, Im all right Jack, the Ministers local station is Gowerton population 9K, Wrexham Town Population nearing 50K and growing.

Edwina Hart MBE CStJ AC / AM
Gweinidog yr Economi, Gwyddoniaeth a Thrafnidiaeth
Minister for Economy, Science and Transport



Bae Caerdydd • Cardiff Bay
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Eich cyf/Your ref
Ein cyf/Our ref
To All Assembly Members


Dear Member

I am writing to update you on two important rail investment projects: the North
and South Wales Journey Time Reduction (NSJTR) project, which includes the
redoubling of a section of the line between Wrexham and Chester; and the
Cardiff Area Signalling Renewal (CASR) project.

I am aware of questions from some Members that seem to indicate Welsh
Government funding allocated for the NSJTR project is being used to fund rail
infrastructure that is the responsibility of Network Rail. Additionally, there have been concerns raised that the revised scope of the scheme does not deliver the required outputs for future potential service enhancements in the Wrexham area.

We have worked closely with Network Rail on both of these matters. Network
Rail has confirmed that in relation to the NSJTR scheme, Welsh Government
funding is only being used to provide the key outputs of the scheme, namely a
journey time reduction and the capability to run an extra passenger train every two hours in both directions between North and South Wales.

It should also be noted that any additional services, outside of the agreed
specifications, were never in the scope of this scheme or part of the review
carried out last summer. I expect the scheme to be completed by Spring 2015.

I will look to the North Wales Task Force to explore options and recommend
how additional investment can be secured to meet future transport needs in
this area.

In South Wales, there have recently been periods of disruption to train services as a result of problems with the delivery of the CASR project. CASR is a significant investment of some £220 million to modernise the rail infrastructure,
by providing new signalling technology across the Cardiff and Valleys network.
The work also includes investment by the Welsh Government to meet the
expected future growth in passenger numbers.

Network Rail recognises that the recent delays and disruption to passengers
have been unacceptable. I am pleased to advise Members that Network Rail
is enhancing the management structure of the project team, whilst also taking
steps to learn the lessons from the recent disruptive events.

My officials will continue to discuss these matters with the senior management
of Network Rail’s Wales route.

 

[Elecman]

A case of you get what you specify and are willing to pay for

 

[Gareth Marston]

A case of you get what you specify and are willing to pay for

Has the extra train every two hours between Cardiff and Holyhead been paid for?

 

[TDK]

This is a shambles so far there has been a 20mph ESR in place from the foot of Gresford bank to the other side of Broad Oak AHB causing delays to every service to and from Chester via Wrexham. This is one of those scenarios where the politicians are just not aware of the infrastructure needs and should never be in the post when it comes to rail transport. Pathetic waste of money as quoted over 2 years ago.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Has the extra train every two hours between Cardiff and Holyhead been paid for?

There will most likely not be an extra train as there is no need for it from North to South Wales as the service is good as it stands.

 

[merlodlliw]

This is a shambles so far there has been a 20mph ESR in place from the foot of Gresford bank to the other side of Broad Oak AHB causing delays to every service to and from Chester via Wrexham. This is one of those scenarios where the politicians are just not aware of the infrastructure needs and should never be in the post when it comes to rail transport. Pathetic waste of money as quoted over 2 years ago.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


There will most likely not be an extra train as there is no need for it from North to South Wales as the service is good as it stands.

The interesting scene now is, The Minister is handing it over to the North Wales Rail Task Force for future development,I am amazed these Ministers don't talk to each other, two WG Ministers are on the line,Wrexham AM Lesley Griffiths who Chairs the North Wales Rail Task Force and Clwyd South AM Ken Skates, Wrexham MP Ian Lucas is now suggesting in the press that his Wrexham constituents should use Birmingham Airport via Rail,a bizarre statement, he now well knows there is no capacity to run any future trains to the local North West of England airports from Wrexham,Politicians indeed.

 

[Railman]

If its going to cost £44m to re-double, and add to that the cost of the single line scheme in the first place, has anyone worked out how much its cost compared to leaving it alone in the first place?
In addition all the delay cost due to pilotman operation during past faults etc?
Seems the NUR as it was then, where right to block the scheme in the early eighties.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Seems the NUR as it was then, where right to block the scheme in the early eighties.

What scheme?

 

[frodshamfella]

I always felt if the wonderful, but sadly no more Wrexham & Shropshire Railway, were able to continue northwards to Chester, it would have helped their passenger loads, I wonder with the doubling of track up from Wrexham this could have happened, had they not finished,

 

[TDK]

I always felt if the wonderful, but sadly no more Wrexham & Shropshire Railway, were able to continue northwards to Chester, it would have helped their passenger loads, I wonder with the doubling of track up from Wrexham this could have happened, had they not finished,

Chester would not have made any difference to WSMR. It was the moderation of competition from Virgin that caused the long journey time and also Chiltern spending over 100m on Evergreen 3 and realising that they needed 100mph stock to run a service including the Banbury Oxford new run that killed off WSMR, as for passenger loads if WSMR had gone to Chester this would have been offset by VT grabbing revenue from WSMR. The only saviour for WSMR would have been DB not taking over Chiltern and later on Arriva as WSMR were taking revenue from 3 sister companies and this was just not tenable.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If its going to cost £44m to re-double, and add to that the cost of the single line scheme in the first place, has anyone worked out how much its cost compared to leaving it alone in the first place?

The single line was up for renovation before the redouble was proposed. The best thing to have done was to relay what was there and increased the speed and added a couple of signals between Saltney and Wrexham and increased the speed between Wrexham and Salop. This would have saved almost as much journey time as the 44m redouble now in progress. The level crossings are going to be replaced with radar/lidar detection type crossings and we all know the problems these have caused on the Crewe to Shrewsbury line. You will still need pilotman working if the signalling equipment and/or the axle counters go tits up.

 

[Gareth Marston]

If its going to cost £44m to re-double, and add to that the cost of the single line scheme in the first place, has anyone worked out how much its cost compared to leaving it alone in the first place?
In addition all the delay cost due to pilotman operation during past faults etc?
Seems the NUR as it was then, where right to block the scheme in the early eighties.

You could invoice the welsh office it still exists.

 

[The Informer]

Somebody threw a big spanner in the works regarding the level crossings...
It'll all come out in the wash as they say!!!

 

[merlodlliw]

two AMs questioned Lesley Griffiths AM for Wrexham and Minister in the Senedd yesterday 8th July, following Monday's letter to AMs.

Aled Roberts
I ask for a statement from the Government regarding the letter received yesterday by the Minister for transport on the dualling of the railway between Wrexham and Chester. The Government is spending £41 million at present and the British Government is spending £10 million on improving connections in the Halton area and yet it is not possible for us to have additional trains between Wrexham and Chester after all of this money being spent. The Government has said that it is eager to improve the connections with Liverpool and Manchester. I know that you chair a group in the north-east, but may I ask for a statement to see how exactly the Government is going to respond to the deficit in this current scheme?
Senedd.tv

Lesley Griffiths
I will ask the Minister for the Economy, Science and Transport to publish a statement.

CALL FOR STATEMENT ON REDUCED NORTH EAST WALES RAIL PROJECT

North Wales Assembly Member Mark Isherwood has called for an oral statement from the Welsh Government on the redoubling of the rail line between Wrexham and Saltney following its Transport Minister’s decision to reduce the scheme.

Originally 7.5 miles of the line was to be redoubled, but the Welsh Government revealed before Christmas that this has now been reduced by two miles.

Raising the matter in this week’s Business Statement in the Assembly Chamber, Mr Isherwood expressed concern that despite consultations being carried out with rail travellers on other lines, those travelling between Chester and Wrexham were never consulted before the £44 million contract was signed off.

He said:

“Further to the Minister’s letter on the north-south Wales Journey Time Reduction Project for the redoubling of a section of the line between Wrexham and Chester, I would like to extend that to an oral statement because this is a matter that merits proper scrutiny in the Chamber.

“The reason I say that is because rail users in Wrexham have told me that an opportunity has been lost, with the taxpayer left to fund £44 million to allow the aspiration of one extra train from Cardiff every few hours, ruling out extra capacity to run future trains for the north-west of England.

“They also point out that there has been a consultation of rail travellers on the Cambrian line, between Aberystwyth and Shrewsbury, and as a result of this the Welsh Government has announced that the two-hourly service will become hourly from May next year. A similar consultation on rail travel on the Fishguard line is taking place, funded by the Welsh Government, but rail travellers between Chester and Wrexham were never consulted before the £44 million contract was signed off.

“Your constituents and mine deserve this to be fully aired and scrutinised, Minister, and I hope that you will respond with that in mind.”

The Minister for Local Government and Government Business, Lesley Griffiths AM, told Mr Isherwood that there is not time this term for an oral statement, but said “I think that it is important that a written statement is published before summer recess.”
ENDS

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If you look at the Cambrian thread, you will notice Wrexham will loose two 158 services from next May 2015, the 0700 ex Salop and the 0745 to Birmingham,both all stations via Wrexham. The 158 unit on these services will transfer to the hourly Cambrian.

If Gerald is still running, it is proposed in a draft May 2015 ATW area one timetable that Gerald calls additionally at Ruabon/Chirk/Gobowen, meaning we lose another direct Birmingham service from Wrexham, with passengers having to hang around Shrewsbury for another 20 minutes to wait for the Holyhead/Birmingham,diverted via Crewe to give Gerald its path through Wrexham 3 years ago.

So Cambrians gain,best of luck, is the Seven/Dees loss.It gets worse for our line,not better.

 

[Gareth Marston]

two AMs questioned Lesley Griffiths AM for Wrexham and Minister in the Senedd yesterday 8th July, following Monday's letter to AMs.Lesley Griffiths
I will ask the Minister for the Economy, Science and Transport to publish a statement.



--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If you look at the Cambrian thread, you will notice Wrexham will loose two 158 services from next May 2015, the 0700 ex Salop and the 0745 to Birmingham,both all stations via Wrexham. The 158 unit on these services will transfer to the hourly Cambrian.

If Gerald is still running, it is proposed in a draft May 2015 ATW area one timetable that Gerald calls additionally at Ruabon/Chirk/Gobowen, meaning we lose another direct Birmingham service from Wrexham, with passengers having to hang around Shrewsbury for another 20 minutes to wait for the Holyhead/Birmingham,diverted via Crewe to give Gerald its path through Wrexham 3 years ago.

So Cambrians gain,best of luck, is the Seven/Dees loss.It gets worse for our line,not better.

The answers to cancel Gerald and re route IG93.

 

[Navigation Roa]

Someone will give me an obvious answer I'm sure, but why can't the hourly midcheshire line service not start at Wrexham, giving an extra connect to both manchester and the metrolink system at altrincham

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Someone will give me an obvious answer I'm sure, but why can't the hourly Mid-Cheshire line service not start at Wrexham, giving an extra connect to both Manchester and the metrolink system at Altrincham

There are those far better versed in operational matters than I, so may I enquire if this proposal would require a change in the number of unit allocations to enable this to occur, noting the extra distance and the journey time added to the existing Manchester to Chester route diagram ?

 

[merlodlliw]

Someone will give me an obvious answer I'm sure, but why can't the hourly midcheshire line service not start at Wrexham, giving an extra connect to both manchester and the metrolink system at altrincham

Even after the reduced redouble is finished,there will be no extra paths available between Wrexham and Chester, Unbelievably after spending £44M, WG did not think to request any extra pathing, except for one path for a political Cardiff/Holyhead service proposed to run every two hours that nobody up here wants.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Someone will give me an obvious answer I'm sure, but why can't the hourly midcheshire line service not start at Wrexham, giving an extra connect to both manchester and the metrolink system at altrincham

It's not on Northern's patch, and they would have to be paid to run it.
It would also add a fourth stretch of single track into the mid-Cheshire diagram, after Edgeley-Northenden, Skelton-Altrincham and Mouldsworth-Mickle Trafford.
Extending either of the Manchester services effectively means finding an extra unit which nobody has.
Wrexham also has daft signalling which means you have to shunt via Watery Road loop to reverse trains from Chester.
Otherwise, it would be a breeze.

 

[TDK]

It's not on Northern's patch, and they would have to be paid to run it.
It would also add a fourth stretch of single track into the mid-Cheshire diagram, after Edgeley-Northenden, Skelton-Altrincham and Mouldsworth-Mickle Trafford.
Extending either of the Manchester services effectively means finding an extra unit which nobody has.
Wrexham also has daft signalling which means you have to shunt via Watery Road loop to reverse trains from Chester.
Otherwise, it would be a breeze.

It's not the signalling it's the track layout

 

[Cheshire Rover]

It's not on Northern's patch, and they would have to be paid to run it.
It would also add a fourth stretch of single track into the mid-Cheshire diagram, after Edgeley-Northenden, Skelton-Altrincham and Mouldsworth-Mickle Trafford.
Extending either of the Manchester services effectively means finding an extra unit which nobody has.
Wrexham also has daft signalling which means you have to shunt via Watery Road loop to reverse trains from Chester.
Otherwise, it would be a breeze.

And of course the main reason would be 2 hours plus on a Pacer end to end. What pleasure.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's not the signalling it's the track layout

I'm only guessing, but if the signalling coming off the single track would let you run into P2 wouldn't you be able to start back from there?
Or reverse from P1 back onto the single track.
Being able to run from Chester into P3 and Central would be handy too, but that would indeed need new S&C.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Even after the reduced redouble is finished,there will be no extra paths available between Wrexham and Chester, Unbelievably after spending £44M, WG did not think to request any extra pathing, except for one path for a political Cardiff/Holyhead service proposed to run every two hours that nobody up here wants.

But there's no stock to run any of these extra Cardiff to Holyheads in 2015 any flex in ATW has been taken by Cambrian and HOW. It's a project that will be announced with fanfare but in reality only hacking up stopping patterns will produce any time savings there will be no extra trains on it unless the MK 3 's are to free dmus for north to south rather than Cambrian?

 

[TDK]

I'm only guessing, but if the signalling coming off the single track would let you run into P2 wouldn't you be able to start back from there?
Or reverse from P1 back onto the single track.
Being able to run from Chester into P3 and Central would be handy too, but that would indeed need new S&C.

You will need bi-directional working and at Wrexham there isn't any I am afraid apart from Platform 3 & 4. Wrexham General is designed to be a through station and not a terminus and this determines the infrastructure of the station. You are right though if bi-directional signalling and reverse locking was added to the current layout it would be possible to run a train into Platform 1 or 2 and then reverse out but you could say this about many stations on the network. There used to be points joining P3 with the main line and you can see this from the curve on P3 but these were removed years ago.

 

[merlodlliw]

Its all smoke and mirrors with the proposed Cardiff/Holyheads,nothing is going to increase in 2015 in my opinion,the problem is later years when stock becomes available, problem then with Wrexham is no paths to run any.
Yesterdays Wrexham Leader had a full page on the redouble,The Local MP said the £44M was a wonderful investment in Wrexham,how little he understands when 95% of the WG Funding is being spent in Cheshire and not a penny on the Town of Wrexhams rail infrastructure.

links to a cut down version http://www.leaderlive.co.uk/news/13...reinstatement-of-rail-links-to-liverpool.aspx

Plus a few not so happy people on the line crossing improvements,I am aware of a few people in the Rossett/Burton area who would like the line removed totally?
http://www.leaderlive.co.uk/news/135517/burton-residents-fume-over-crossing-closure-plan.aspx

 

[TDK]

links to a cut down version http://www.leaderlive.co.uk/news/13...reinstatement-of-rail-links-to-liverpool.aspx

Plus a few not so happy people on the line crossing improvements,I am aware of a few people in the Rossett/Burton area who would like the line removed totally?
http://www.leaderlive.co.uk/news/135517/burton-residents-fume-over-crossing-closure-plan.aspx

It's called propaganda Bob

 

[merlodlliw]

It's called propaganda Bob

Agree with you.

 

[The Informer]

The bridge will be built, note my 'spanner in the works' comment last week!!!