Wrexham redouble

[PHILIPE]

It seems that the whole affair has been rushed in the later stages to try and make up for delays in the starting of the project without any proper train planning and then finally doing it without things being thought through properly. It looks now as though it wasn't worth the cost and value for money.

 

[Gareth Marston]

It seems that the whole affair has been rushed in the later stages to try and make up for delays in the starting of the project without any proper train planning and then finally doing it without things being thought through properly. It looks now as though it wasn't worth the cost and value for money.

Depends on what you run over it and where it comes from, extra Cardiff to Holyhead trains will get in the way of the BHM INTL to Holyhead trains or follow so close behind as to not utilise the capacity efficiently whereas a Liverpool to Wrexham service over the Halton curve spaced evenly will be fine.

 

[The Planner]

but when it comes to work carried out and Rugby was a fine example NR are well and truly under Mr. Bransons spell.

You are going to have to elaborate on that one.

 

[merlodlliw]

This letter appeared in todays Daily Post, it is relevant to the line and shows how well used Birmingham services are being axed by stealth in favour of Cardiff services.

The importance of cross-border rail services
I refer to Bob Hargreave’s letter (Post, Monday 21 July) about a proposed cut to an early morning commuter rail service from Llandudno to Manchester . Readers may be interested to learn that Arriva also propose to axe the very well-used and long-standing morning commuter service from Wrexham through Shrewsbury to Birmingham.
Good cross-border rail services are vital to the Welsh economy. Passenger surveys show that the greatest demand is for services from North Wales to Liverpool and Manchester, London and down the Chester-Shrewsbury line towards the West Midlands and Birmingham Airport, not to Cardiff.
Arriva Trains Wales plan to introduce an hourly peak service from Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury from May 2015, but they have to find trains to run the service! Information leaked to local rail user groups is that the ‘Premier’ North-South Wales express service, which currently departs Wrexham at 07.32 (Mondays-Fridays) and runs directly to Shrewsbury, is to stop additionally at Ruabon, Chirk and Gobowen. That is the good news, but the bad news is that the service runs to Cardiff and not, as does the present 07.47 stopping service from Wrexham, to Birmingham. It means that commuters to Wellington, Telford, Wolverhampton and Birmingham will have to get out of bed at least 15 minutes earlier and change at Shrewsbury.
Arriva Trains Wales say that these are, as yet, early days and the proposals are not yet fixed. Well, we say the plans must be changed. The railway should be run for the benefit of passengers not for the operational convenience of the railway companies and not, for that matter, to satisfy the whims of certain politicians and civil servants based in far-away Cardiff.
John Mattocks
Chairman – Shrewsbury-Chester Rail Users’ Association

 

[pablo]

......................Travel from South Wales to Wrexham involves going through North Shropshire the area doesn't conform to a neat division between England and Wales.

Begs the Q. Does there need to be a neat division between England and Wales.....

 

[TDK]

Begs the Q. Does there need to be a neat division between England and Wales.....

I noticed the wink but hey if you do that why not build a wall and demand passports? I am thinking once again that we are all British and to maintain the economy of all of the UK we need inter regional services that serve to most prolific areas and for Wrexham County this is a direct service to Birmingham, Liverpool, London and Manchester, it is about time the "I'm Welsh and not British" thing needs to be dropped for the benefit of the people of Wales.

We all know that the WG are prone to support the areas south of Hereford and the North is sometimes neglected but then again you could say the same for the English with North of Watford. It is time people realise there is more to life than being a patriotic person, bite the bullet and support what is best for the Welsh people and not what the bods in Cardiff think and do to keep the Welsh people voting for them.

 

[kieron]

Well the public voted in the current WG did they not? Maybe it's time to change it! Vote in someone else to run Wales.

Chance would be a fine thing. One of the first things the current Westminster government did was to delay the 2015 WG election to 2016.

(Of course, the lack of coverage for the WG in media readily available to Welsh voters is really what does for the notion that the WG will stand on fall on its own merits.)
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Depends on what you run over it and where it comes from, extra Cardiff to Holyhead trains will get in the way of the BHM INTL to Holyhead trains or follow so close behind as to not utilise the capacity efficiently whereas a Liverpool to Wrexham service over the Halton curve spaced evenly will be fine.

It wouldn't. The Llandudno-Manchester train leaves Chester rougly half an hour after the one through Wrexham, so squeezing another train in then via Runcorn would, at best, leave people in Helsby and Frodsham with 2tph to Chester 5 minutes apart.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Chance would be a fine thing. One of the first things the current Westminster government did was to delay the 2015 WG election to 2016.

(Of course, the lack of coverage for the WG in media readily available to Welsh voters is really what does for the notion that the WG will stand on fall on its own merits.)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It wouldn't. The Llandudno-Manchester train leaves Chester rougly half an hour after the one through Wrexham, so squeezing another train in then via Runcorn would, at best, leave people in Helsby and Frodsham with 2tph to Chester 5 minutes apart.

The Halton curve is not about improving frequency of trains between Helsby Frodsham and Chester though so the fact that it doesn't deliver this output in not critical. Any additional trains from Cardiff to Holyhead will be tripping over the BHM INTL to Holyhead trains all the way between Shrewsbury and Holyhead. As for impacting performance that's 120 miles of duplication as opposed to what 12?

 

[berneyarms]

The Halton curve is not about improving frequency of trains between Helsby Frodsham and Chester though so the fact that it doesn't deliver this output in not critical. Any additional trains from Cardiff to Holyhead will be tripping over the BHM INTL to Holyhead trains all the way between Shrewsbury and Holyhead. As for impacting performance that's 120 miles of duplication as opposed to what 12?

Maybe the Birmingham International-Holyhead trains could be re-routed to Liverpool or Manchester (or wherever) with a connection into/out of the Cardiff-Holyhead trains?

Putting extra trains on the North Wales doesn't really make sense - there's enough trains there as it is I would think!

 

[Gareth Marston]

Maybe the Birmingham International-Holyhead trains could be re-routed to Liverpool or Manchester (or wherever) with a connection into/out of the Cardiff-Holyhead trains?

Putting extra trains on the North Wales doesn't really make sense - there's enough trains there as it is I would think!

It's where the trains from north wales coast come from and go to that's the issue not the quantity of them some hours it's 2tph others 3tph and even on some hours 4tph! North Wales loses it's long standing direct trains to the West Midlands then?

I think there should be a survey like the Cambrian and Fishguard have had but I doubt it will it say hourly to Cardiff as a priority!

 

[The Informer]

What does it state in the WON regarding that 20mph TDK?
Is it track condition or associated with lineside working or something else?

Its all politcal.....

I know the track condition is poor and the WG were angry that the 44m they stumped up was to be spent upgrading the existing single line too. Surely they seen the plans for the proposed 90mph for each line but somebody failed to tell them that those speeds are not possible on that existing jointed track!!!

 

[TDK]

What does it state in the WON regarding that 20mph TDK?
Is it track condition or associated with lineside working or something else?

Its all politcal.....

I know the track condition is poor and the WG were angry that the 44m they stumped up was to be spent upgrading the existing single line too. Surely they seen the plans for the proposed 90mph for each line but somebody failed to tell them that those speeds are not possible on that existing jointed track!!!

It was an ESR not a TSR so was not in the WON

 

[The Informer]

But i thought the speed was still on?

 

[berneyarms]

It's where the trains from north wales coast come from and go to that's the issue not the quantity of them some hours it's 2tph others 3tph and even on some hours 4tph! North Wales loses it's long standing direct trains to the West Midlands then?

I think there should be a survey like the Cambrian and Fishguard have had but I doubt it will it say hourly to Cardiff as a priority!

Well I think the quantity is an issue given the rolling stock constraints that ATW are operating.

Currently we have a typical off-peak service pattern of:
1 tph Holyhead-Birmingham/Cardiff
1 tph Llandudno-Manchester
Occasional Virgin services to/from London

If there are additional trains going to operate from Cardiff up the Marches line to Chester do they all need to go out along the North Wales coast?

Or do you change the Birmingham trains?

I'm merely throwing that out - personally I don't think you need more trains along the North Wales coast. It could be an opportunity to use the trains for other destinations beyond Chester.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Well I think the quantity is an issue given the rolling stock constraints that ATW are operating.

Currently we have a typical off-peak service pattern of:
1 tph Holyhead-Birmingham/Cardiff
1 tph Llandudno-Manchester
Occasional Virgin services to/from London

If there are additional trains going to operate from Cardiff up the Marches line to Chester do they all need to go out along the North Wales coast?

Or do you change the Birmingham trains?

I'm merely throwing that out - personally I don't think you need more trains along the North Wales coast. It could be an opportunity to use the trains for other destinations beyond Chester.

Having two different operators over the whole length is part of the problem and the grafting on of Direct Cardiff trains in the last decade. For its population west of Chester has a very frequent service for outside the south east.

 

[TDK]

But i thought the speed was still on?

The speed was a 20mph ESR for a week or so then they made it a 50mph TSR and listed it as "track Renewals" Why they couldn't have it as a 50mph to start with is anybody's guess, maybe they didn't have any 50mph boards! The problem with the speed restriction was that the termination board was at the foot of Gresford bank on the up and this meant that not only did you lose time slowing for the 20mph you were luck to get to 45mph up the bank that caused even more delays. One other factor with the ESR was that the 20mph warning board was just too far away from the commencement board (almost 2 miles) and unless you knew exactly where the start was you slowed looking for it. To sum it up it was a complete NR shambles!

 

[berneyarms]

Having two different operators over the whole length is part of the problem and the grafting on of Direct Cardiff trains in the last decade. For its population west of Chester has a very frequent service for outside the south east.

I agree about the two operators - but that's not the biggest issue. VT have only 7 return workings a day along the North Wales coast.

I just don't see why even more trains are needed there. I'd re-route some existing ones elsewhere rather than increasing frequency even more.

I'd much rather see Virgin getting a couple more trains to make meaningful connections at Holyhead to be honest.

 

[po8crg]

I'd much rather see Virgin getting a couple more trains to make meaningful connections at Holyhead to be honest.

There should be a rail connection for every ferry departure at Holyhead. It really is criminal that you have to hang around for hours for some ferries.

 

[merlodlliw]

There should be a rail connection for every ferry departure at Holyhead. It really is criminal that you have to hang around for hours for some ferries.

Not sure how many ferries run from Holyhead,buts its a good fair number,the Giant Ferry Ulysses arrives into Holyhead around midnight,the only transport East is National Express.

 

[6Gman]

Not sure how many ferries run from Holyhead,buts its a good fair number,the Giant Ferry Ulysses arrives into Holyhead around midnight,the only transport East is National Express.

Some of us can remember when there were 3 or 4 departures from Holyhead between midnight and 2am!

And the station refreshment rooms were open 24 hours!

 

[berneyarms]

There are the following ferry sailings that carry foot passengers:
2 x Irish Ferries SWIFT
2 x Irish Ferries Ulysses
2 x Stena Adventurer
2 x Stena Nordica
1 x HSS (seasonal)

Of these only one inbound Stena Nordica sailing and one outbound set of Stena Adventurer & Ulysses sailings (they leave one after the other) that have fast Virgin connections.

0215 Dublin/Holyhead connects into 0655 train
0910 Euston/Holyhead train connects into the two sailings.

 

[The Informer]

More than likely a Colas shambles. They're the Contractor and its their worksite.

 

[merlodlliw]

There are the following ferry sailings that carry foot passengers:
2 x Irish Ferries SWIFT
2 x Irish Ferries Ulysses
2 x Stena Adventurer
2 x Stena Nordica
1 x HSS (seasonal)

Of these only one inbound Stena Nordica sailing and one outbound set of Stena Adventurer & Ulysses sailings (they leave one after the other) that have fast Virgin connections.

0215 Dublin/Holyhead connects into 0655 train
0910 Euston/Holyhead train connects into the two sailings.

Nine sailings a day,in the 60s it was only two every 24 hours.thanks for the info.

More than likely a Colas shambles. They're the Contractor and its their worksite.

lost me there informer.

 

[TDK]

I'd much rather see Virgin getting a couple more trains to make meaningful connections at Holyhead to be honest.

The only reason VT ran the Wrexham in the first place was to try and put some competition on WSMR it certainly wasn't for the passengers but for their own benefit.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

More than likely a Colas shambles. They're the Contractor and its their worksite.

So will NR be fining Colas as VT ensured NR got fined for the Rugby fiasco?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

lost me there informer.

Colas is the contractor for the redoubling.

 

[berneyarms]

Nine sailings a day,in the 60s it was only two every 24 hours.thanks for the info.

Well until you have to remember that until 1981, the B & I Line operated to/from Liverpool rather than Holyhead.

Traditionally there were two car ferry sailings a day all year round between Holyhead and Dun Laoghaire, with another two added during the summer.

 

[The Planner]

So will NR be fining Colas as VT ensured NR got fined for the Rugby fiasco?

I've no doubt there are penalty clauses in the contract if it isn't delivered on time and to spec yes.

 

[merlodlliw]

Colas is the contractor for the redoubling.

I appreciate that,Ive just realised its the work site.

Well until you have to remember that until 1981, the B & I Line operated to/from Liverpool rather than Holyhead.

Traditionally there were two car ferry sailings a day all year round between Holyhead and Dun Laoghaire, with another two added during the summer.

You are correct about B&I, I recall in the 60s two sailings from Holyhead,0315 & 1515, with additional summer sailings by the "Caledonian Princess" around 0630,I used the Princess one Sunday morning when the 0315 was overcrowded.
If I recall, I caught the 2330 from Chester Saturday and returned Monday morning catching the 0130 arriving Chester around 0300. I forget the fare,it was a day return to Dublin,with train from Dun Laoghaire harbour station(then under the pier) to Pearse,the old O Connell st station.Two trains met the ships in Dun Laoghaire, the other going to Heuston.And similar boat trains ran from both Dublin stations for the departing ferries.
On my next day out in Dublin early 80s, the trains had been replaced with buses, next time it was the Dart.

The only reason VT ran the Wrexham in the first place was to try and put some competition on WSMR it certainly wasn't for the passengers but for their own benefit. TDK

Absolutely correct,the ganging up with ATW,led to ATW giving up a path to VT for a 0700 run from Wrexham,this upset passengers who had previously departed Wrexham at 0745 missing the 0712 Chester/Manchester by four minutes, the VT service was nothing but a spoiler against WSMR aided by ATW.

 

[po8crg]

There were some Liverpool fast ferries at some point more recently, because I used a catamaran about ten years ago to get to Dublin from Liverpool.

Thinks

Crap, I'm getting old. That might be twenty years ago.

 

[merlodlliw]

BBC Radio wales are taking a big interest now.

Radio Wales tomorrow morning will be interviewing the ,Seven/Dee railway line partnership secretary around 0720(Tuesday 29th July)
BBC radio Wales are keen to ask professionals why there is so much criticism of WGs £44M partial redoubling from Assembly Members and others
appearing in the press.