Wrexham redouble

[Gareth Marston]

With all respect, it was Network Rail who submitted the plans to WG earlier in the year & Network Rail plans showed a five minute head with the redouble between General & Wrexham North Junction.
I am looking at the bigger picture of track capacity in the future,it was Political interference that singled the line in the first place to save less that £500K on a bridge. The Gowerton redouble ran over budget, but it was completed as per the plans & drawings all paid for by WG.
All the old track lying on the embankments between Bersham & Shrewsbury would have been removed by now, if phase two had gone ahead in October,but politics decided to interfere.
As for the side issue of stock,with all the £Ms spent on the Cambrian with dynamic loops etc, it remains a two hourly service, but the infrastructure will ensure extra capacity from next year

Yes we seem to be very good at doing half a job the Todmorden curve has no stock to run on it either. Is it realised that giving money to NR doesn't result in more trains running. Will we construct HS2 and forget to order trains to run on it? Perhaps the structure of the industry confuses some and they think its a one stop shop!!

 

[merlodlliw]

It was called Rossett when there was a station there before in pre-Beeching days. Why call it something else ?

It will be built on another site just out of Rossett,on land owned by NR,the local Rossett village infrastructure could not cope with an interchange/parkway, the name Wrexham North was dreamed up by consultants. However with the cutbacks on the redouble it may remain on the shelf, unless common sense prevails, but do "Cardiff Bay Bubble" politicians have common sense?, the site will only be a few feet from the Cheshire Boundary.

 

[edwin_m]

but do "Cardiff Bay Bubble" politicians have common sense?

Hasn't the Cardiff Bay Bubble had been forcibly retired after poor reliability?

 

[merlodlliw]

Hasn't the Cardiff Bay Bubble had been forcibly retired after poor reliability?

Indeed the real bubble car has retired but those across the way responsible for rail in Wales have not.

 

[Squaddie]

However with the cutbacks on the redouble it may remain on the shelf, unless common sense prevails, but do "Cardiff Bay Bubble" politicians have common sense?

I'm sure the Welsh Government would carry out all these projects if money were no object: unfortunately, in the real world, there are very serious pressures on public finances and not nearly enough money to do everything that everyone would like.

Will you be voting for tax-varying powers for the Welsh Government in the forthcoming referendum? And will you be prepared to pay more tax to pay for these schemes?

 

[merlodlliw]

I'm sure the Welsh Government would carry out all these projects if money were no object: unfortunately, in the real world, there are very serious pressures on public finances and not nearly enough money to do everything that everyone would like.

Will you be voting for tax-varying powers for the Welsh Government in the forthcoming referendum? And will you be prepared to pay more tax to pay for these schemes?

I agree there are serious pressures on finance, so long as Peter is not robbed to pay Paul. Dual Tracking the line between Wrexham General & Gresford Bridge some two miles, with contractors already on site would half the costings for a later date. It was NR who submitted the plans as the best headway options.

As for which way I vote, is up to me at the time.

 

[alwaystouchout]

Will you be voting for tax-varying powers for the Welsh Government in the forthcoming referendum? And will you be prepared to pay more tax to pay for these schemes?

Don't forget Wales will almost invariably have a Labour administration, and a Labour Party well to the left of its English counterpart..

 

[merlodlliw]

Don't forget Wales will almost invariably have a Labour administration, and a Labour Party well to the left of its English counterpart..

I agree with your statement, anyhow my thread about the Wrexham General to Gresford redouble (2 Miles) being dropped by WG was raised in the Senedd today by Aled Roberts AM the ex leader of Wrexham Council who challenged the business leader,Lesley Griffiths AM who represents Wrexham town.

MEDIA RELEASE/DATGANIAD I'R CYFRYNGAU
Release/Rhyddhau: 14.15, Tuesday 26th November 2013



Labour Government’s rail U-turn
Second line from Wrexham to Gresford scrapped

News that Labour’s Welsh Government has cut the construction of a second rail track between Wrexham and Gresford from the plan to lay a second railway line to Chester will be challenged in the Assembly today by North Wales Liberal Democrat Assembly Member, Aled Roberts.

“I will be challenging Government Business Minister and Wrexham AM, Lesley Griffiths, to explain this apparent U-turn,” explained Aled Roberts. “When the Transport Minister announced on October 2nd that she had agreed a ‘£44 million scheme with Network Rail’ explaining that it would “improve north-south journey times and links with Wrexham”, everyone assumed that she was backing the original Network Rail Scheme.

“But it now appears that Labour’s Welsh Government demanded that Network Rail produce a second scheme that left out dualling the rail track between Wrexham and Gresford and this was the one that was announced to great fanfare. Indeed I was one of those who warmly welcomed the announcement.

“The effect of this U-turn is to reduce by half the number of trains that will be able to use the Wrexham to Chester line with the inevitable consequence of congestion in the future when the new prison opens generating an extra 1000 passengers a week. It will make it less likely that there will be direct services to the North West of England and Wrexham will not be able to benefit fully from the electrification of the North Wales Coast Line.

“There are a number of questions I would like to ask Government Ministers. How much has been saved by cutting this second rail track between Wrexham and Gresford? Could the costs of doing this dualling at a later date be up to treble what it would be now? Who was consulted about this change? Certainly not myself or the other AMs who represent the area covered by this line, including the Business Minister who was quoted saying that “increasing the capacity of the line between Wrexham and Chester is hugely important to North Wales’. Has Wrexham Council be consulted? Did North Wales’ Regional Transport Planners Taith know about this change?

“Wrexham could be condemned to years of rail congestion and delays if the Welsh Government does not reverse this U-turn and adopt the original Network Rail plan. Not only must we consider the rising number of passengers visiting the prison, there is also the issue of the increasing number of freight trains that are using this line, particularly to the Kronospan factory in Chrk. And then there is some of the ageing trains themselves – if they break down on this single track it could cause a day of cancelled trains.

“While Labour’s Welsh Government saves a few million in North East Wales it is worth noting that in this year in South Wales Labour have spent £52 million on buying Cardiff Airport, £46 million on redoubling the a railway line that runs through the Transport Ministers constituency and £5 million on a brand new station at Energlyn. So where will the money saved on not dualling part of the Wrexham to Chester line be spent? I hope in North East Wales but don’t hold your breath!”

 

[jones_bangor]

Don't forget Wales will almost invariably have a Labour administration, and a Labour Party well to the left of its English counterpart..

That's not necessarily set in stone....

Increase the number of AMs to 80....or even a 100...

Of which only 40 are elected by first past the post, and Labour's power is gone in a puff of smoke....

Labour are terrified of this possibility!!

 

[PHILIPE]

It will be built on another site just out of Rossett,on land owned by NR,the local Rossett village infrastructure could not cope with an interchange/parkway, the name Wrexham North was dreamed up by consultants. However with the cutbacks on the redouble it may remain on the shelf, unless common sense prevails, but do "Cardiff Bay Bubble" politicians have common sense?, the site will only be a few feet from the Cheshire Boundary.

How much did it cost to use consultants to dream up a station name ?

 

[merlodlliw]

That's not necessarily set in stone....

Increase the number of AMs to 80....or even a 100...

Of which only 40 are elected by first past the post, and Labour's power is gone in a puff of smoke....

Labour are terrified of this possibility!!

Interesting thought,but not for many years.

How much did it cost to use consultants to dream up a station name ?

I have not a clue, probably a days work for two of them visiting Mystic Meg,saye £20K

 

[alwaystouchout]

That's not necessarily set in stone....

Increase the number of AMs to 80....or even a 100...

Of which only 40 are elected by first past the post, and Labour's power is gone in a puff of smoke....

Labour are terrified of this possibility!!

Indeed...the Richard report even recommended that the FPTP seats should be abolished altogether in favour of 80 AMs elected via proportional representation..

 

[TDK]

It will probably be a HST if the rumors are correct that its a done deal,Geralds £3.5M WG refurb and rental of stock runs out early 2015, unless WG comes up with more money to run it as open access, who knows, but I am sure if the current audit is taken into account,Premier Class will go,that is the free meal with a first ticket.

The rumours are most likely wrong, also why use a 125 mph capable unit where the maximum line speed is only 100mph and the 100mph is only available from Cardiff to Newport and Crewe to Manchester. Also how will you fit an HST onto all the short platforms.? It would be more beneficial to use class 175's if available.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The rumours are most likely wrong, also why use a 125 mph capable unit where the maximum line speed is only 100mph and the 100mph is only available from Cardiff to Newport and Crewe to Manchester. Also how will you fit an HST onto all the short platforms.? It would be more beneficial to use class 175's if available.

It's certainly an option that those that have been charged the task of delivering the hourly Cardiff to Holyhead service have looked into in some depth.

 

[davetheguard]

I don't claim to be an expert on this scheme, and I'm not Welsh (or live in Wales), so I suppose what Welsh politicians do is really none of my business.

But, I have been following the Wrexham re-doubling scheme with interest as I'm always keen to see these short-sighted cut backs of the 60s, 70s, & 80s to our railway network reversed.

If I've got this right, this is the chronological order of events:

1. Saltney Junction (Chester) to Wrexham railway singled to "save" (my italics) half a million pounds on the cost of a new road bridge.

2. Scheme authorised to re-double seven of the eleven miles for £38? million pounds.

3. This scheme called in by minister Edwina Hart to check value for money.

4. As a result of this political intervention, there will now be less mileage doubled (5.5 instead of 7) and it will cost more money - £44 million. The project has also been delayed by 18 months.

Perhaps someone can comment about whether or not I've got this right. And if I have, I'll leave it to others to comment on what this says about politicians and civil servants and their decisions.....

 

[D1009]

The rumours are most likely wrong, also why use a 125 mph capable unit where the maximum line speed is only 100mph and the 100mph is only available from Cardiff to Newport and Crewe to Manchester. Also how will you fit an HST onto all the short platforms.? It would be more beneficial to use class 175's if available.

Due to electrification of other parts of the network, and IEP on the East Coast, HSTs are certain to become available in the not too far distant future, so why not consider them? Just because they are capable of 125 mph doesn't mean they need to do it.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

Due to electrification of other parts of the network, and IEP on the East Coast, HSTs are certain to become available in the not too far distant future, so why not consider them? Just because they are capable of 125 mph doesn't mean they need to do it.

Quite correct. Inter City 125s have been used on many routes that do not support 125mph running. The West of England; Midland Main Line and anywhere west of the Severn Tunnel to name but three.

 

[jones_bangor]

Quite correct. Inter City 125s have been used on many routes that do not support 125mph running. The West of England; Midland Main Line and anywhere west of the Severn Tunnel to name but three.

Probably quite a bit cheaper to run at 90-100mph!

 

[Gareth Marston]

Probably quite a bit cheaper to run at 90-100mph!

And almost certain to scupper North Wales electrification if allowed to go ahead.

 

[jones_bangor]

I don't claim to be an expert on this scheme, and I'm not Welsh (or live in Wales), so I suppose what Welsh politicians do is really none of my business.

But, I have been following the Wrexham re-doubling scheme with interest as I'm always keen to see these short-sighted cut backs of the 60s, 70s, & 80s to our railway network reversed.

If I've got this right, this is the chronological order of events:

1. Saltney Junction (Chester) to Wrexham railway singled to "save" (my italics) half a million pounds on the cost of a new road bridge.

2. Scheme authorised to re-double seven of the eleven miles for £38? million pounds.

3. This scheme called in by minister Edwina Hart to check value for money.

4. As a result of this political intervention, there will now be less mileage doubled (5.5 instead of 7) and it will cost more money - £44 million. The project has also been delayed by 18 months.

Perhaps someone can comment about whether or not I've got this right. And if I have, I'll leave it to others to comment on what this says about politicians and civil servants and their decisions.....

I think you should add a bit between 2 and 3... as in common with other publicly managed capital projects, costs balloon well beyond the project budget......
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And almost certain to scupper North Wales electrification if allowed to go ahead.

Why? The Marches will never be wired until after the North Wales Coast - the HSTs will only have a few years service left in them....

 

[Gareth Marston]

I think you should add a bit between 2 and 3... as in common with other publicly managed capital projects, costs balloon well beyond the project budget......
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Why? The Marches will never be wired until after the North Wales Coast - the HSTs will only have a few years service left in them....

The obvious reason in that the business case wil not stack up with so many diesels running under the wires.

 

[merlodlliw]

I don't claim to be an expert on this scheme, and I'm not Welsh (or live in Wales), so I suppose what Welsh politicians do is really none of my business.

But, I have been following the Wrexham re-doubling scheme with interest as I'm always keen to see these short-sighted cut backs of the 60s, 70s, & 80s to our railway network reversed.

If I've got this right, this is the chronological order of events:

1. Saltney Junction (Chester) to Wrexham railway singled to "save" (my italics) half a million pounds on the cost of a new road bridge.

2. Scheme authorised to re-double seven of the eleven miles for £38? million pounds.



3. This scheme called in by minister Edwina Hart to check value for money.

4. As a result of this political intervention, there will now be less mileage doubled (5.5 instead of 7) and it will cost more money - £44 million. The project has also been delayed by 18 months.

Perhaps someone can comment about whether or not I've got this right. And if I have, I'll leave it to others to comment on what this says about politicians and civil servants and their decisions.....

1.Correct this the road bridge over the Main Oswestry/Wrexham/Chester road,it was single to save under £500Kat the time.
2.£32M this amount of money was ring fenced by the then Minister IWJ to redouble 7 miles, this was several years ago.
3.Another £12M was authorised by the next Minister Carl Sargent for ancillery work. The scheme was submitted by NR to WG to commence October 2013 as phase two to commence immediate after the new lines between Salop & Bersham had been completed, an announcement by Edwina Hart on the last day of the Assembley before summer, stated "I am reviewing the scheme for value for m money" I will make an announcement after the summer recess in October". NR had written to all stakeholders the week previous " We are ready to commence in October & await WG approval to commence"
4.There will be less mileage redoubled, Wrexham General to Gresford is taken out around two miles, The Minister up to today has given no cost saving or released any other amounts submitted by NR, it is all speculation on costs.
The section of track to remain single Wrexham General to Gresfiord was only picked up on a Welsh Government website dated 15th November, hence all hell breaking out up here & quite right too.
The project is delayed,all we are told is 2014 commencement?as it stands it is only half the expected scheme,

Comment from Wednesdays Daily Post, Local AM Aled Roberts raised the issue with the Business Minister Lesley Griffiths AM.

oday the business minister agreed to provide me with a statement as to the nature of the new Network Rail scheme. I also asked that the statement confirm whether an assessment has been made showing how the revisions to the Network Rail plan will affect rail passenger capacity at Wrexham and connectivity with London and Manchester.”

A Welsh Government spokeswoman said: “We have agreed a revised scheme with Network Rail which will deliver the same objectives as the original scheme at a reduced cost.

“As a result of the improvements there will be an ability to run an extra train every two hours between Holyhead and Cardiff via Wrexham in both directions, and a reduction of 16 minutes journey time between Holyhead and Cardiff.”

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/changes-44m-north-wales-rail-6345298

 

[Squaddie]

I don't claim to be an expert on this scheme, and I'm not Welsh (or live in Wales), so I suppose what Welsh politicians do is really none of my business.

But, I have been following the Wrexham re-doubling scheme with interest as I'm always keen to see these short-sighted cut backs of the 60s, 70s, & 80s to our railway network reversed.

If I've got this right, this is the chronological order of events:

1. Saltney Junction (Chester) to Wrexham railway singled to "save" (my italics) half a million pounds on the cost of a new road bridge.

2. Scheme authorised to re-double seven of the eleven miles for £38? million pounds.

3. This scheme called in by minister Edwina Hart to check value for money.

4. As a result of this political intervention, there will now be less mileage doubled (5.5 instead of 7) and it will cost more money - £44 million. The project has also been delayed by 18 months.

Perhaps someone can comment about whether or not I've got this right. And if I have, I'll leave it to others to comment on what this says about politicians and civil servants and their decisions.....

Yes, this shows shocking short-sightedness on the part of politicians and public bodies over many years.

But, despite what some on this forum would like to think, this is not a specific indictment of Welsh politicians but rather of politicians and governments of all political persuasions in all parts of the UK over many decades. With the benefit of hindsight it is now clear that the Beeching cuts (and further piecemeal "rationalisation" of the rail network since the 60s) were in the main a false economy and have cost the country many billions of pounds in the past 50 years. It could even be argued that had the Beeching cuts not happened (or not happened to the extent they did) we would not now need to be spending £50 billion on a new line between London and Manchester.

 

[merlodlliw]

Yes, this shows shocking short-sightedness on the part of politicians and public bodies over many years.

But, despite what some on this forum would like to think, this is not a specific indictment of Welsh politicians but rather of politicians and governments of all political persuasions in all parts of the UK over many decades. With the benefit of hindsight it is now clear that the Beeching cuts (and further piecemeal "rationalisation" of the rail network since the 60s) were in the main a false economy and have cost the country many billions of pounds in the past 50 years. It could even be argued that had the Beeching cuts not happened (or not happened to the extent they did) we would not now need to be spending £50 billion on a new line between London and Manchester.

I agree with what you say in many ways. But there is no escaping the fact that this cut back is specifically down to a Minister in Welsh Government, no one else & made without reference to anyone in North East Wales, this includes all AMs/MPs/County Councils/Transport Consortia & the private sector,this is shocking arrogance to an area desperate for better rail connections to the North West especially with the known extra huge footfall when the Super Prison opens.
For a WG spokesperson to say this would allow an extra train every two hours to Cardiff is living in another world.

 

[D1009]

The obvious reason in that the business case wil not stack up with so many diesels running under the wires.

That's a ridiculous argument, no-one's saying any of the diesels are going to be there for ever.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

1. Saltney Junction (Chester) to Wrexham railway singled to "save" (my italics) half a million pounds on the cost of a new road bridge.

Playing devil's advocate here, as I'm in favour of the complete redoubling, but there were a lot more cost savings in the maintenance of an 11 mile single track railway compared with double track than merely the bridge cost. It was a different world then, and hindsight is a wonderful thing. We should be thankful more of it wasn't singled, there was only a train every 2 hours then, and I'm not sure whether there was any freight between Wrexham and Chester.

 

[PHILIPE]

Plenty of freights between South Wales and Midlands to Saltney throughout the 24 hours and also oil tanks returning from the Midlands (Rowley Regis especially) to Stanlow/Ellesmere Port.

 

[The Planner]

Rowley Regis? No freight from there and hasn't been for many years. Only tanks around the midlands are to/from Kingsbury and they aren't going to Stanlow.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Plenty of freights between South Wales and Midlands to Saltney throughout the 24 hours and also oil tanks returning from the Midlands (Rowley Regis especially) to Stanlow/Ellesmere Port.

BR had mothballed Mickle Trafford Jnc to Dee Marsh Jnc in 1984 and then found they had to reopen it in 1986 as the single track to Wrexham couldn't cope with stuff coming down from Chester and reversing onto Bidston line. It only closed when Ravenscraig Steel works the main source of traffic closed down and no longer sent stuff to Shotton. If Ravenscraig hadn't closed then BR would have been in dilemma in early 90's faced with either re doubling Wrexham to Chester or completely relaying Mickle Trafford Jnc to Dee Marsh Jnc which was a 10mph crawl due to the condition of the track.

 

[PHILIPE]

I think I went back too far. Misunderstood that post related to the time when singled.
While on the subject of singling, it was a false economy as the remaining would have twice as much wear and tear and the need for points at each end of the Single line. I believe BR made this type of decision to convince the Government of the day they were making savings. The politicians wouldn't have known any different.

 

[Gareth Marston]

That's a ridiculous argument, no-one's saying any of the diesels are going to be there for ever.

Crewe to Chester is currently 2 tph, Chester to Llandundo Jnc roughly 2.5 tph and west of Llandudno Jnc 1.5 tph. Increasing the Cardiff service to hourly would mean that at least a third of trains as far as the Junction and half west of there would have to be diesel powered this would negate the benefits of electrification to a considerable degree.

Given that there will be plenty of candidates in CP6 why would a line where the full benefits would not be realized be an early candidate? if I was in the SW of England or on a Pacer Ghetto in the North I would certainly make the most of the fact that the "competition" would have smaller benefits and not use the investment properly compared to my patch.