Wrexham Blocked in Oct.

[merlodlliw]

So much for the dynamic loop at Rossett. However double track north to Saltney has potential problems too as it would impact on the Junction and there are capacity constraints on Chester Power box until it is upgraded.

any comments on this, which comes via a third party.

 

[The Planner]

You are not looking at the bigger picture. The improvements give you more options to send trains down there than just the local movements. It could make a useful diversionary route for freight.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So much for the dynamic loop at Rossett. However double track north to Saltney has potential problems too as it would impact on the Junction and there are capacity constraints on Chester Power box until it is upgraded.

any comments on this, which comes via a third party.

Why ?? it makes it better. If you dont double Saltney you dont have the option to hold a train on that section and bring one to/from Wrexham therefore either holding it back on the 4 track or Chester station itself, or way back to the north of Wrexham Station. Re-doubling the middle section apparently causes the cost to rise significantly because of the number of level crossings and some of their complications as one is skewed ??.

 

[merlodlliw]

You are not looking at the bigger picture. The improvements give you more options to send trains down there than just the local movements. It could make a useful diversionary route for freight.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Why ?? it makes it better. If you dont double Saltney you dont have the option to hold a train on that section and bring one to/from Wrexham therefore either holding it back on the 4 track or Chester station itself, or way back to the north of Wrexham Station. Re-doubling the middle section apparently causes the cost to rise significantly because of the number of level crossings and some of their complications as one is skewed ??.

Thanks Planner, ill pass it on. You make some good poiints.

 

[TDK]

what is the point in redoubling if you think a train every half hour is useless, chester to north wales coast runs fine every half hour. a train could terminate at wrexham if it clashes with a wsmr path, im sure a chang of trains then is ok.

Good point, I do not see how the cost analysis has been worked out. If the line is not improved between Wrexham and Gobowen there is no way a half hourly service from Chester will ever work it is as tight as it can get currently if you add the steel trains and the Chirk wood trains into the equasion, as planner says the wider picture needs to be looked at and feel the WAG is barking up the wrong tree, I feel they need to improve the route from Wrexham (Wales) through to Gobowen first then think later regarding the capacity on the single line asking for money from central govornment to assist the funding and doule line it throughout. As for a change in trains, that will not work either as proved with the ATW/VT fiasco.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So much for the dynamic loop at Rossett. However double track north to Saltney has potential problems too as it would impact on the Junction and there are capacity constraints on Chester Power box until it is upgraded.

any comments on this, which comes via a third party.

As quoted above, the route from Wrexham to Gobowen is far more improtant than the single line

 

[tbtc]

If the line is not improved between Wrexham and Gobowen there is no way a half hourly service from Chester will ever work

Has there been any suggestion of what the additional service might be?

It's clockface hourly at the moment (Holyhead - Birmingham/ Cardiff), and there's not many services that could be extended from either end (the Northern "Knutsford" service is a non starter, as is WMSR extending north of Wrexham, plus the Merseyrail service is EMU), so what potential new trains could there be?

 

[TDK]

Has there been any suggestion of what the additional service might be?

It's clockface hourly at the moment (Holyhead - Birmingham/ Cardiff), and there's not many services that could be extended from either end (the Northern "Knutsford" service is a non starter, as is WMSR extending north of Wrexham, plus the Merseyrail service is EMU), so what potential new trains could there be?

For one I think the WAG express is expected to route via Wrexham

 

[tbtc]

For one I think the WAG express is expected to route via Wrexham

Ah, forgot about that!

Still, it's only one train a day (with a proposal for a second).

Shame the Liverpool - Chester line is EMU run, because that'd be a natural service to extend.

 

[merlodlliw]

1. The good points I refer to is the responce on double line Saltney to the
bridge in Cheshire from the planner

2.I am sure Wrexham CBC, West Cheshire & Chester CC, plus others such as
Rail user groups expected the 40 odd million £ supposidly set aside by WAG would include double track Saltney/Wrexham to the bridges,single up and over, then double track between the bridges(the magical dynamic loop)

3.We all know this can not be swept under the carpet, with the Minister
putting this as a priority. He as also publically & in private meetings demanded
the WAG express leave Crewe ASAP and travel via Wrexham

4.The consultants report, advised a shuttle between Wrexham & Chester
to make up the 30 minute gap.

We shall see, if only this were South Wales,a different story.

 

[The Planner]

The middle loop was never going to happen, Ive said so before in many of the Wrexham threads. As far I have always manage to ascertain it was never £40 million, it has always been in the region of 25-30.

 

[krus_aragon]

We shall see, if only this were South Wales,a different story.

Don't be so sure. Here's a short timeline of the Ebbw Vale reopening:

• 1991: Consultation reccomends reopening portions to passenger traffic
• 2001: With Corus steelworks closing, a report proposes the current two-stage plan
• 2002: Restored train service is part of an economic recovery package for the area
• 2005: Work is yet to start, forecasts suggest may be another two years
• 2006: Start of main works
• December 2007: Line due to reopen. Wasn't ready, though.
• February 2008: First hourly services, to Cardiff only.
• April and June 2008: Llanhilieth and Crosskeys stations are completed
• 2009: Redoubling for Newport services due to be completed by 2011
• ????: Connection to Abertilerry reinstated?

 

[robert2000]

It's a good idea to have every other train to wrexham from chester beign just a shuttle service, on the other hand this will not help the busy trains between shrewsbury and wrexham/oswestry area.

unless, wsmr add extra trains between wrexham and shrewsbury at busy times.

and did someone mention in another thread about a south to north premier class starting aswell, running opposite to the current one aswell.

 

[merlodlliw]

and did someone mention in another thread about a south to north premier class starting aswell, running opposite to the current one aswell.[/QUOTE]

Yes the Minister is wanting to start a South/North premier service, but not before it can travel via Wrexham, due to the North/South outcry via Crewe.
ill try and find the minute from the WAG statement.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Don't be so sure. Here's a short timeline of the Ebbw Vale reopening:

• 1991: Consultation reccomends reopening portions to passenger traffic
• 2001: With Corus steelworks closing, a report proposes the current two-stage plan
• 2002: Restored train service is part of an economic recovery package for the area
• 2005: Work is yet to start, forecasts suggest may be another two years
• 2006: Start of main works
• December 2007: Line due to reopen. Wasn't ready, though.
• February 2008: First hourly services, to Cardiff only.
• April and June 2008: Llanhilieth and Crosskeys stations are completed
• 2009: Redoubling for Newport services due to be completed by 2011
• ????: Connection to Abertilerry reinstated?

Fair enough Krus,but the Euro Dosh was found, Dec 07 to Feb 08 was a major cock up, you may recall the good and the mighty were invited to the opening
with a WAG sized lunch, er two days before the opening letters were sent out
please dont turn up, due to problems we can not open the line(NR etc.
would not sign it off) One First Minister was not impressed.

However there have been other rail spends in the South given preference
to the North, I just ment if there was a need for a double track in the South
experience says politics would have got it funded.

 

[krus_aragon]

However there have been other rail spends in the South given preference
to the North, I just ment if there was a need for a double track in the South
experience says politics would have got it funded.

I hate to throw yet another counter-argument, but all trains west of Swansea have to traverse a single track patch through Gowerton. This means few services can stop at Gowerton, and there isn't capacity to run more trains off the Heart of Wales line into Swansea.

I agree that there is more spending on rail infrastructure in the South (proposed Llantrisant branch, new platforms at Cardiff Central and Queen Street) but then there are a lot more people down there. Granted, they need to make sure they don't forget about things north of the valleys, but Wrexham and the North Wales Coast are in a much better shape than, say, Aberystwyth or Brecon.

 

[merlodlliw]

I hate to throw yet another counter-argument, but all trains west of Swansea have to traverse a single track patch through Gowerton. This means few services can stop at Gowerton, and there isn't capacity to run more trains off the Heart of Wales line into Swansea.

I agree that there is more spending on rail infrastructure in the South (proposed Llantrisant branch, new platforms at Cardiff Central and Queen Street) but then there are a lot more people down there. Granted, they need to make sure they don't forget about things north of the valleys, but Wrexham and the North Wales Coast are in a much better shape than, say, Aberystwyth or Brecon.

I agree one can throw South v North claims all over the shop,I fully agree
Newport/Cardiff/Swansea is highly populated, but North East Wales is the
third most populated conurbation in Wales, but the traffic requirements
between Wrexham & Chester demand better then what appears a cut & shut
tracking system in the pipeline, which is disappointing.

 

[robert2000]

close roodee junction, have the 4 tracks extend over the railway bridge, that will help with pathing issues.

 

[The Planner]

How would it help with stuff from Wrexham ?? You would need to spend shed loads on bridge strengthening Id expect and then the signalling and new track.

 

[robert2000]

true, that bridge does look in a poor state.

 

[krus_aragon]

The last thing we want on that bridge is a repeat...

 

[TDK]

It's a good idea to have every other train to wrexham from chester beign just a shuttle service, on the other hand this will not help the busy trains between shrewsbury and wrexham/oswestry area.

unless, wsmr add extra trains between wrexham and shrewsbury at busy times.

and did someone mention in another thread about a south to north premier class starting aswell, running opposite to the current one aswell.

Shuttles would be awkward because you cannot depart North from Platform 1, you will need to shunt and these shunts will need to fit around all the other movements.

 

[rww100]

Shuttles would be awkward because you cannot depart North from Platform 1, you will need to shunt and these shunts will need to fit around all the other movements.

Why would you want to use platform 1 for a Wrexham bound shuttle anyway (I take it you're talking about Chester station )?

Wouldn't it be more obvious to fit it around other services on platforms 2, 3, 4 & 7?...

And if double track would be nessecary for the frequencies along the line with the addition of a shuttle service, surely by the time that's done, a short bay platform could be built by demolishing the huts between platforms 4 and 7 at the west end, just the right size for a 153 or 150.

 

[TDK]

Why would you want to use platform 1 for a Wrexham bound shuttle anyway (I take it you're talking about Chester station )?

Wouldn't it be more obvious to fit it around other services on platforms 2, 3, 4 & 7?...

And if double track would be nessecary for the frequencies along the line with the addition of a shuttle service, surely by the time that's done, a short bay platform could be built by demolishing the huts between platforms 4 and 7 at the west end, just the right size for a 153 or 150.

Platform 1 at Wrexham, Platform 1 at Chester is at the North end and a bay P1 at Wrexham is the only platform Southbound trains can enter. To depart North Platform 2 is the only platform Chester bound

 

[rww100]

Platform 1 at Wrexham, Platform 1 at Chester is at the North end and a bay P1 at Wrexham is the only platform Southbound trains can enter. To depart North Platform 2 is the only platform Chester bound

I thought there were crossovers at Wrexham, and if not, surely it wouldn't be too hard to put some in, and re-signal platforms 1 and 2 for bi-directional use.

 

[robert2000]

saltney junction to wrexham general is 15 mins, we can have a 30 min service right now as they wud pass every 15 mins, simple.

 

[The Planner]

No you cant, as the signalling wont allow it. You need re-occupation times for the single line, which would be at least 2 minutes to allow the signaller to set the route.

You are also assuming that no other trains at all are using the line. If you do it like you say, no other service can use the line. You also have the issue of what happens North of Saltney and South of Wrexham. Wrexham is quite restricted with its station workings.

 

[emoaconr]

http://www.leaderlive.co.uk/news/78...s-this-weekend-as-london-lines-disrupted.aspx

Local paper Evening Leader suggests that WSMR services between Wrexham and Shrewsbury are to be replaced by buses, or re-routed through Crewe this Sunday for these aforementioned works. Some pretty lengthy delays there! No metion of ATW services?

 

[merlodlliw]

http://www.leaderlive.co.uk/news/78...s-this-weekend-as-london-lines-disrupted.aspx

Local paper Evening Leader suggests that WSMR services between Wrexham and Shrewsbury are to be replaced by buses, or re-routed through Crewe this Sunday for these aforementioned works. Some pretty lengthy delays there! No metion of ATW services?

Its on W/S/ATW/NR websites, Arriva to Arriva for arrival, at least the buses are new.

 

[tsubaki]

Bit of a lurker here who has only just registered, so hello.

With regards to the redoubling of track, would the infrastructure (esp the bridge) have deteriorated that much since it was lifted? I am sure I can remember it being dual track around the start of the 1990s.

 

[Dai.]

http://www.leaderlive.co.uk/news/78...s-this-weekend-as-london-lines-disrupted.aspx

Local paper Evening Leader suggests that WSMR services between Wrexham and Shrewsbury are to be replaced by buses, or re-routed through Crewe this Sunday for these aforementioned works. Some pretty lengthy delays there! No metion of ATW services?

atleast this won't be as bad as the WCML upgrades. there were huge disputes over that.

Bit of a lurker here who has only just registered, so hello.

With regards to the redoubling of track, would the infrastructure (esp the bridge) have deteriorated that much since it was lifted? I am sure I can remember it being dual track around the start of the 1990s.

Well hello mr lurker!

 

[merlodlliw]

Bit of a lurker here who has only just registered, so hello.

With regards to the redoubling of track, would the infrastructure (esp the bridge) have deteriorated that much since it was lifted? I am sure I can remember it being dual track around the start of the 1990s.

Bore Da Lurker.

It was singled in the 80s for the Wrexham By Pass,after 20 years you will get some kind of deteriation. The single track was a political decision by Clwyd County Council and the Welsh Office plus Cheshire County Council.
Objections by the then Wrexham Maelor Borough Council & Chester City Council fell on death ears, I recall all hell letting loose at Wrexham, but to no avail. With Clwyd CC now long gone(good) Wrexham is its own County so this shambles would never occur again.

I get the feeling however that the double track will only be a half measure
leaving the middle run between the bridges, single track.:cry:
Now if this were South Wales they would have a dynamic loop in the middle,we shall see. However Ieuan wants his beloved Wag Express to run via Wrexham, so who knows.

 

[The Planner]

This is boring now....