Would this be allowed in the UK?

[Bayum]

Interestingly, just seen something similar on a video at York station.

 

[plugwash]

Is that an old railway myth? It wouldn’t be possible to move the points in front of the train.

As I understand it on modern signalling there are timeouts after a signal is put back to danger before the points it protects can be changed, but I doubt there was/is any such protection on purely mechanical boxes.

 

[Bigfoot]

As a driver, do you have complete faith in the system and continue at line speed, or do human instincts cause you to dip off the throttle just in case?

Dipping the throttle has almost no effect on a train. Way too much momentum for anything meaningful to occur.

 

[Efini92]

As I understand it on modern signalling there are timeouts after a signal is put back to danger before the points it protects can be changed, but I doubt there was/is any such protection on purely mechanical boxes.

Once the route has been set and the train has passed the junction signal the points are locked in place by means of track circuits. In the situation above it would be impossible for the route to be set for Halton curve and the points be set for the down main.

 

[Taunton]

happens every morning at London Bridge, at a closing speed of 100mph.

This one went in with the resignalling there in 1976, with a reversible line in the centre of two conventional direction lines, and was specially advised to drivers at the time that it could occur. Possibly the first one. It seems subsequently from the above to have been put into a couple of other Southern places that resignalled shortly afterwards. Possibly there was a Southern design engineer there who was attracted to the concept.

 

[Bald Rick]

50mph through London Bridge, by two trains? Which ones do this?

I should have said approaching London Bridge. Spa Road, on the Sussex side.

When it was commissioned in January 2015, more than one driver had a ‘moment’ as he/she saw headlights coming towards them on their line at 100mph. They had to trust the signals!

 

[Tomnick]

As I understand it on modern signalling there are timeouts after a signal is put back to danger before the points it protects can be changed, but I doubt there was/is any such protection on purely mechanical boxes.

There usually, or at least often, is. There's no such thing as a purely mechanical box nowadays anyway - there's invariably at least some electric locking. Normally approach locking is achieved by preventing the signal lever from returning fully normal until the timer has run its course (or the train has been proved to have passed the signal).

Approach locking isn't universal though. I used to work one location where you could put the home signal back in the face of a train approaching at 90mph, and immediately swing the facing points into the 15mph goods line. Frodsham might well have been similar.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Seen this video and it got me wondering: would a manoeuvre like this be allowed in the UK, or would sending trains as close as this to a head-on/side-swipe be forbidden in case of points failure?

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

Why wouldn't it be allowed? They're not heading in to a head-on or side-swipe.

 

[Efini92]

There was an accident at hull where they managed it. The signalman was a bit quick replacing the signals after a train, allowing a conflicting movement. head on collision

Was that similar to the one at guide bridge where the signal man tried to beat the interlocking?

 

[Gloster]

Was that similar to the one at guide bridge where the signal man tried to beat the interlocking?

The one at Audenshaw Junction (report on Railways Archive) was due to two deliberate acts of corner cutting by the signal man. The interlocking should have prevented it happening, but there is a limit to how far you can go to prevent deliberate acts: such things are very rare. And it was 1970.

 

[175001]

Daily scene at Leeds West this.

 

[greyman42]

Interestingly, just seen something similar on a video at York station.

Did it involve platforms 3 and 4?

 

[dan4291]

Did it involve platforms 3 and 4?

I've had it at York before when I was going north into platform 5 and a Northern train was coming out of platform 6 or 7 (southern bay platforms).

 

[Bayum]

Did it involve platforms 3 and 4?

I think so. Two 800s. One leaving south from the two main platforms in the front of the station and the other headed north to the platforms on the far side (NRM side) of the station.

 

[greyman42]

I think so. Two 800s. One leaving south from the two main platforms in the front of the station and the other headed north to the platforms on the far side (NRM side) of the station.

Not 3 and 4 then.

 

[Gloster]

On the BBC News website is a clip from the 15 Billion Pound Railway called Emma comes close up to a driverless train (sorry, I can’t do a link). It is filmed from a train entering the southern reversible through siding at Westbourne Park while another comes out of the adjacent siding at speed. That seems fine to me, but I was taken aback because, so it seems, the train coming out had no driver in the leading cab. (Of course, it could be hyping it up to seem more dramatic.)

 

[swt_passenger]

On the BBC News website is a clip from the 15 Billion Pound Railway called Emma comes close up to a driverless train (sorry, I can’t do a link). It is filmed from a train entering the southern reversible through siding at Westbourne Park while another comes out of the adjacent siding at speed. That seems fine to me, but I was taken aback because, so it seems, the train coming out had no driver in the leading cab. (Of course, it could be hyping it up to seem more dramatic.)

Surely the whole point of the Westbourne Park autoreverse system is that it’s supposed to work without a driver in the cab?

 

[Gloster]

Surely the whole point of the Westbourne Park autoreverse system is that it’s supposed to work without a driver in the cab?

Indeed, but the idea of a train whizzing along with nobody looking out of the front window, who could react to something like a trespasser, is somewhat shocking to a signalman of my generation. Or is there somebody watching on CCTV? Alternatively, is the line completely separated by barriers?

 

[Bald Rick]

Alternatively, is the line completely separated by barriers?

yes there’s barriers.

I hope you haven’t been on the DLR anytime in the last 35 years.

 

[HSTEd]

That would lead to an interesting question of what level of fencing is required to satisfy the ORR about driverless operation.

 

[Bald Rick]

That would lead to an interesting question of what level of fencing is required to satisfy the ORR about driverless operation.

that question has been resolved by this very issue.

 

[Gloster]

yes there’s barriers.

I hope you haven’t been on the DLR anytime in the last 35 years.

Right out to Westbourne Park carriage sidings, which are on the open? Are they isolated from incursions from the GWML?

It is around 35 years since I last used the DLR, but I have used the Copenhagen Metro and Paris Ligne 14.

 

[Bald Rick]

Right out to Westbourne Park carriage sidings, which are on the open? Are they isolated from incursions from the GWML?

yes.

apart from a gap for the connections to/from the GWML, obviously.

 

[Taunton]

Indeed, but the idea of a train whizzing along with nobody looking out of the front window, who could react to something like a trespasser, is somewhat shocking to a signalman of my generation. Or is there somebody watching on CCTV? Alternatively, is the line completely separated by barriers?

We have done quite well with this on the DLR for the last 35 years without issue or any of this stuff.

** - Ah, I see Bald Rick has beaten me to it.

 

[Gloster]

apart from a gap for the connections to/from the GWML, obviously.

That was exactly what I was thinking of: someone getting through by using one of these gaps. Youths on a dare?

 

[Bald Rick]

That was exactly what I was thinking of: someone getting through by using one of these gaps. Youths on a dare?

all covered by the risk assessment (and CCTV)

 

[Bayum]

Not 3 and 4 then.

I don’t know. I don’t have platform numbers memorised.

 

[dan4291]

I don’t know. I don’t have platform numbers memorised.

From your description it sounds like the southbound train was leaving platform 5 with the northbound train going into either platform 9, 10 or 11, which would mean a movement as discussed in this thread.

 

[Bayum]

From your description it sounds like the southbound train was leaving platform 5 with the northbound train going into either platform 9, 10 or 11, which would mean a movement as discussed in this thread.

looks about right in pictures.

 

[HSTEd]

that question has been resolved by this very issue.

DO you have any information on how tall the fencing is? I've been unable to find a clear picture.