Would passengers be allowed on an ECS move?

[LNW-GW Joint]

Earlier this year I inadvertantly travelled ECS from West Croydon to the reversing siding beyond the station.
I opened the funny door they have from the street onto the middle of the platform and found an LO class 378 just closing its doors, so jumped on, expecting it to head for the East London line.
Only then did I realise it was heading west, not east, and was completely empty!
Although I am not familiar with the area I knew LO didn't go any further, but was still relieved when it stopped in the reverser.
The driver came through to change ends and we went straight back to the station ready for the next service.
I explained what happened and we had a good laugh.
Might have been different if we'd ended up somewhere like Selhurst depot.

 

[Max]

Lucky!
But I'll bet anything you like that the Guard didn't also say: "Oh, and when you get home, just make sure you tell the world that I did this for you by, hmmm, maybe posting it on an internet forum for all to see what I've done when I shouldn't." Did he?

Geez. I despair at times like this.

I would hardly say the poster has incriminated anybody.

 

[313103]

Earlier this year I inadvertantly travelled ECS from West Croydon to the reversing siding beyond the station.
I opened the funny door they have from the street onto the middle of the platform and found an LO class 378 just closing its doors, so jumped on, expecting it to head for the East London line.
Only then did I realise it was heading west, not east, and was completely empty!
Although I am not familiar with the area I knew LO didn't go any further, but was still relieved when it stopped in the reverser.
The driver came through to change ends and we went straight back to the station ready for the next service.
I explained what happened and we had a good laugh.
Might have been different if we'd ended up somewhere like Selhurst depot.

A very common thing like this happens daily at Willesden Junction! This is very annoying and a lot of it is down to passenger ignorance. It is the all about me culture that persists in society, i know lets ignore the repeated station announcements, lets ignore the on train automated announcements, lets ignore the Guard making a PA announce ment, then lets ignore the same Guard when he is shouting at the top of his voice 'THIS TRAIN IS NOT IN SERVICE' How many times do you need to be told? I recently had to make 15 announcements on one train at Willesden they were so loud that i am sure i could be heard on platform 1, and yet this one person still didnt get off. So i went up to her and asked where did she think she was going when she said Kentish Town West i said which part of 'This train is not in service do you not understand? She said i saw the train in the platform so i thought it was my train, so i said what about the 50 to 75 passengers that are on the platform waiting now for a delayed train because this one is sitting here, the same one you should be waiting for. She was not impressed and got up and got off.

 

[68000]

Lucky!
But I'll bet anything you like that the Guard didn't also say: "Oh, and when you get home, just make sure you tell the world that I did this for you by, hmmm, maybe posting it on an internet forum for all to see what I've done when I shouldn't." Did he?

Geez. I despair at times like this.

.

Did you edit his post as I can find nothing in it to justify the above?

 

[driver9000]

So on that proviso, i'm waiting on Oldham Rd for a bus to town. First have sent a bus from Oldham but its running that late that the driver switches its display to Sorry Not In Service so they don't have to stop unless it is to set down. Are they allowed to do that just so they can play catch up?

Sounds to me like the Driver has changed it to deter those at stops from hailing the bus. Naughty and a 'bookable' offence if caught by an inspector, unless First authorise such a thing but it was certainly something not allowed where I worked.

 

[M60lad]

Regarding the First Manchester bus suddenly showing Sorry Not in Service with passengers on, how do you know he/she hadnt just recieved permission over the radio to do this.

Sometimes a driver will radio in while loading up in Manchester and depending on how busy the radio is with other calls it could take time for Depot to answer of which the driver could be halfway up the road.

Drivers are allowed to put up Sorry Not in Service but only with permission from traffic department at their relevant depot.

 

[jon0844]

A very common thing like this happens daily at Willesden Junction! This is very annoying and a lot of it is down to passenger ignorance. It is the all about me culture that persists in society, i know lets ignore the repeated station announcements, lets ignore the on train automated announcements, lets ignore the Guard making a PA announce ment, then lets ignore the same Guard when he is shouting at the top of his voice 'THIS TRAIN IS NOT IN SERVICE' How many times do you need to be told?

Clearly this wasn't a case of someone being deaf, but I presume you are aware of this as a possibility? Shouting over and over isn't going to necessarily tell everyone on a train. Even onboard screens may not help if someone is partially sighted and deaf, or has some other disability.

I was on a FCC service that had to come out of service at Finsbury Park earlier this week and they did very loud announcements, and again, not everyone got off. However, a dispatcher did walk along and check each carraige (which took time) before locking the doors for each one. The only effective way, as people are either idiots or possibly have a genuine reason for not being aware. I suspect in most cases they're idiots, for sure, but how would you know?

 

[robertclark125]

One other thing about passengers being allowed on an ECS move, the train could simply be gonig from a station to a depot via a line with no stations, so no possibility of the passenger being able to alight. In addition, with late night moves, sometimes ECS trains run when stations are closed, and therefore the public can't access them.

As an example, how does a passenger get out of haymarket station when it's closed overnight?

 

[Bittern]

Lucky!
But I'll bet anything you like that the Guard didn't also say: "Oh, and when you get home, just make sure you tell the world that I did this for you by, hmmm, maybe posting it on an internet forum for all to see what I've done when I shouldn't." Did he?

Geez. I despair at times like this.

Wait, what?

I answered a question the OP asked in the thread title. I was a passenger, and by the word of ScotRail staff, I was allowed on an ECS movement.

It's not like I posted the guys name, or even the service!

I boarded the train when it was still in service. The train was not going to where it was supposed to be going and thus effected my journey, so the guy kindly allowed me and another passenger to remain on board to return to Glasgow so we could re-commence our journeys. How does any of this justify you going off in a pointless rant. This time I was answering a question, so "times like this" are people answering questions. Why do you despair when people answer questions?

It's also worthy of note there were other members of ScotRail staff on the train and offered no complaint to the Ticket Examiner doing this.

 

[spacehopper]

This happened to me a long time ago.....

Due to a fatality the train I was working was diverted and terminated at station off route. Train arrives, I walk through checking everybody is off. As far as I'm aware all pax off so close doors give driver 2 and we shunt to the depot. As I go back to collect my traps, bloke fast asleep in the bike shed of a 158. How did I miss him! Guess one place I didn't look or expect to find anyone. Anyway let the driver know good news and as we change ends bloke has disappeared! Driver asks are you sure someone is still on. Next thing he walks out of the disabled bog, needless to say this guy was wasted. I had to accompany "swampy" out of the 3rd rail land depot sharpish. Moral of the story check and check again!

Think biggest risk is on friday and saturday nights when drunks fall asleep. Become such a problem with the abuse and assaults that BTP would actually be on the platform when the train terminated and walk through and remove them. I've only seen this happen at one major mainline station it would be nice to see BTP doing this at key locations, then again it doesn't matter what night of the week it is BTP are never mainly to be seen.

Pity poor driver on DOO trains who have to get them all off when terminating and going ECS. Probably only time come into contact with punters.

The post about ECS in weegieland- TE shouldn't be letting anyone stop on. They aren't safety critical the train is DOO- did the driver know you were on? Worst case scenario train could have been involved in an accident and nobody would have known about you. Same as if it pulls into Central and you have to let yourselves off via egress.

Don't get me wrong I'm not having a pop- the thought has crossed my mind before in the name of customer service. But a guards job these days you have to be so careful you can lose your job in an instant. Take guard who was on a train which had a fail to call and thought that it would be good customer service to open local door and put a ladder down and escort pax along the cess back to the station. Some respects sounds like a pretty reasonable thing to do but the padlock soon wrapped itself round the filing cabinet when someone wrote into customer relations department.

 

[SqUaShIe P]

There was one morning where my train was delayed, I had about 50 passengers needing to catch a connecting train to catch a ferry. They missed the connection and there were no coaches available and too many passengers for taxis so control took train that should have been ECS, plonked a conductor on it and ran it as an additional train service instead.
Goes to show, Things can work sometimes

 

[NightatLaira]

Sort of similar thing happened to me once:

I was on the London Underground Central Line and had boarded a Hainault via Newbury Park service to go round the Hainault loop (which I'd never done before).

I kind of just assumed that upon reaching Hainault it would turn into a westbound 'West Ruislip' service, which to be fair was frequently the case.

Anyway - this one, upon reaching Hainault sat there for a bit. I had my earphones in, didn't really hear the announcements - the next thin I knew we were moving off into Hainault depot! The staff were not amused when they found me locked inside the train in the sidings!

Good times lol!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I also recall someone talking about a Bradford Interchange to Hebden Bridge 'Ghost Train'. This is apparently (and I don't know if it still operates) an untimetabled ECS move to get a 156 set out to Hebden Bridge from Bradford Interchange very late at night on a weekday ready for the first eastbound early morning service. It's supposed to run empty from Bradford to Hebden Bridge but for a while at least in the late 90s / early 00s certain well liked locals seemed to be able to bribe the guard / driver to take them back to intervening stations (Halifax/Sowerby Bridge/ Mytholmroyd/ etc).

It basically operated a late night 'taxi service' - but was stopped a few years back iirc.

 

[BestWestern]

So on that proviso, i'm waiting on Oldham Rd for a bus to town. First have sent a bus from Oldham but its running that late that the driver switches its display to Sorry Not In Service so they don't have to stop unless it is to set down. Are they allowed to do that just so they can play catch up?

Yes, it's common practise for a service which has been caught up by the bus behind to 'blank out' and operate as drop off only until such time as it can reach a point along the route - usually the terminus - and restart right time. Picking up passengers becomes something of a grey area at that point, as although the destination display says Not In Service the bus is still carrying passengers. I've done this and made an exception to stop and pick up at a college which was always very busy, but not stopped anywhere else.

 

[jon0844]

In London, when they need to regulate the service they announce the bus will terminate early and then, or at least they should, they wait to allow passengers to transfer to a bus in front or behind.

In practice, they can stop and the bus people want/need to change to drives off - but that's the theory anyway.

Only if the bus is totally full will it fail to stop and I've never seen a bus going 'out of service' to allow it to run fast and turn around. But, I guess that's because TfL have created places where buses can turn earlier.

One difference in London also is that many services are just advertised as 'every xx minutes' and people wait for them and pretty much ignore the timetable (they may, if available, look at the due times on the Countdown screens) so it's easy to chop and change services.

 

[driver9000]

Only if the bus is totally full will it fail to stop and I've never seen a bus going 'out of service' to allow it to run fast and turn around. But, I guess that's because TfL have created places where buses can turn earlier.

When I drove on LT routes running full and standing was the only excuse for non stopping 'compulsory' stops. All the routes have official stands for buses to turn back, although some of these are simply a trip 'round the block' to face the bus the other way. A bus turning back early would be given an authority number that was entered onto the duty log card along with the times stood from/to and where. Running with 'Not in Service' on the front to pick up time in London wasn't allowed and would see the Driver being booked by one of the many inspectors dotted along the routes. Oddly removing the route number/intermediate points when running 'dead' was also bookable! When we were turned back we had to issue a 'transfer ticket' that was handed to the Driver of the following bus along with Saver stubs from that trip.

 

[GuyBarry]

Bus companies are not insured to carry passengers on buses travelling 'dead' or 'empty'. Should anything happen to a passenger on a 'dead' bus that isn't supposed to be there then the insurance company doesn't pay out and the Driver leaves themselves open to dismissal (it was gross misconduct at the companies I drove for).

Interested to learn this. I worked for a bus company for a number of years where I was employed at the bus station. As I happened to live near the depot, and it was sometimes difficult to arrive at work for my early shift using the scheduled services, I would sometimes go down to the depot and get a lift into work. None of the drivers ever refused me.

Were they all in breach of the rules? Or were things different because I was a member of staff?

 

[jon0844]

I'd hope it's different for members of staff.

One thing I think improves London buses isn't just the fact that it's managed by one single body, with standard ticketing/fares etc - but the mere fact that TfL has a real incentive to monitor and inspect the services being run.

Out here in Hertfordshire, I don't think I've ever seen HCC doing inspections and acting on complaints about buses that shortcut, run early, speed (50mph+ in a 30mph isn't uncommon at night) or any of the other offences. The fact is, they don't really care and so the rules are meaningless. Why have rules if there is nobody to enforce them? Clearly the operators know this.*

* Okay, there might be some once-in-a-blue-moon checks, but I'd bet that HCC give a warning to the operators that they're going to be doing it. I also found out that my local bus operator doesn't have any inspectors on duty after 2100, so no wonder drivers are tempted to cut corners (literally in cases) to sign off early.

 

[driver9000]

Interested to learn this. I worked for a bus company for a number of years where I was employed at the bus station. As I happened to live near the depot, and it was sometimes difficult to arrive at work for my early shift using the scheduled services, I would sometimes go down to the depot and get a lift into work. None of the drivers ever refused me.

Were they all in breach of the rules? Or were things different because I was a member of staff?

Not sure about other companies but we were covered to travel to/from work on dead buses as staff buses weren't operated.

 

[Grantham]

Not carrying passengers on empty cars movements appears to be only forbidden in the United Kingdom.

I don't understand how it is possible for the population of Great Britian to have been decimated so savagely by carrying passengers on empty car movements to make insurance all but impossible for this circumstance.

I carry passengers empty cars whenever I please in Australia, which is a country second only to the United States as rediculously letigious to the point of ludicrous. Luckily the people most likely to injure themselves and sue you are not the midnight train buffs who want to see Lithgow B Frame in the middle of the night. Sometimes permission is needed to carry these passengers, sometimes it is automatic that you may carry them, depends on which company you are working for that day.

One company I work for doesn't allow "unauthorised" passengers, but they are the only one of several.

M

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Last year I travelled on the summer-Sat-only parliamentary service from Chester to Runcorn, on a Chester-Liverpool ticket. I was the only passenger.
The chat with the platform staff at Chester went along the lines of: "Pity it doesn't go somewhere useful after Runcorn, like Lime St".
To which the response was "It does - it runs empty from Runcorn to Lime St".
They even suggested asking the guard if I could stay on ("no harm in asking..."), but I didn't dare.
True enough - when I got to Lime St after changing into an LM 350 at Runcorn, there was the ex-Chester 150 parked up in the platform.
What struck me most was the complete waste of resources involved.

 

[northwichcat]

Isn't there some restriction that if the train reverses using a floor height signal that it can't carry passengers while making the reversal?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Isn't there some restriction that if the train reverses using a floor height signal that it can't carry passengers while making the reversal?

Doesn't matter how high the signal is, it's just that a passenger train cannot be signalled using position lights or subsidaries (let's not get into GPLs being between the two main aspects now though!). A passenger train can only be signalled using main aspects. (I'm sure there are exceptions though)!

 

[driver9000]

Isn't there some restriction that if the train reverses using a floor height signal that it can't carry passengers while making the reversal?

A passenger train may not be started using ground shunting signals. Any exceptions (such as during engineering work) would be published in the Weekly notices along with the method of work to be adopted.

A passenger train can be signalled using a position light when entering an occupied permissive platform.

 

[robertclark125]

In addition, ECS moves can mean a train goes from A to B via a totally different route, usually for driver training.

 

[Grantham]

A passenger train may not be started using ground shunting signals. Any exceptions (such as during engineering work) would be published in the Weekly notices along with the method of work to be adopted.

A passenger train can be signalled using a position light when entering an occupied permissive platform.

Whoa, weird safeworking! We have several different types of safeworking on the other side of the planet (Like Unidirection or Bidirectional Rail vehicle detection territory/Track circuited, Staff and Ticket, Electric Staff, Train order working, Block Telegraph). Most of our safeworking systems are based on Engish railway practices. The only times that ground shunting signals are no good is if they clear without a point blade locking device for the direction of travel.

Does the rule about never departing under ground shunting signals apply in Staff and Ticket or Electric Staff territory? Assuming there are any left! Is there a national standard for ground signals, or do they vary with location? (This coming from someone in a country with more gauges than hot dinners!)

M

 

[driver9000]

Does the rule about never departing under ground shunting signals apply in Staff and Ticket or Electric Staff territory? Assuming there are any left! Is there a national standard for ground signals, or do they vary with location? (This coming from someone in a country with more gauges than hot dinners!)

I think we have stumbled on terminology differences, we still operate Train staff and Electric Token Block in areas (among other types of signalling). It's a national rule as contained in the RT8000 Rulebook. Any local variances say, for times of disruption would be contained in the local instructions of the appropriate Sectional Appendix although there are no such variances on the lines I work on. I'm sure there was one for Lancaster giving permission to start in the Up (south) direction for late running terminating services from the shunt signal. It is has since been converted to a main aspect so the instruction isn't in the current appendix.

Rulebook module S2, rule 3.1.

 

[Scotrail84]

Are there any permanent easements?

Say, for example...

Dunblane Station, platform 1, is wheelchair friendly. Platform 2&3 are not.

However, 90% of services calling at Platforms 2&3 will (sometimes after a short wait), draw forward past the signal box then return to platform 1 for the return journey.

Is the correct thing to do to drop ramp and let wheelchair bound passenger off on platform 2&3 and hope a kind fellow passenger bump them up and down either bridge?

Or

To allow passenger to remain on board whilst service undertakes the undertakes the ECS move?

No. Correct procedure is to get them off at either Stirling or bridge of allan and they get a taxi to dunblane provided by the railway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I was on one about a year or two back. Train terminated at Cathcart but I wanted to go to Neilson and boarded at Mount Florida not knowing the train would only go as far as Cathcart. This was due to snow and electricity problems, so the conductor told me to stay on as the train was running ECS back to Glasgow Central, and to get a Barrhead train from there and then a bus from Barrhead.

A Conductor on a Cathcart???

 

[CarterUSM]

No. Correct procedure is to get them off at either Stirling or bridge of allan and they get a taxi to dunblane provided by the railway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


A Conductor on a Cathcart???

I think he probably meant TE.

 

[Scotrail84]

I think he probably meant TE.

TE's have no say in this issue as they are not safety crit and have nothing to do with the running of the train. The TE was wrong not the passenger in this occasion.

 

[CarterUSM]

TE's have no say in this issue as they are not safety crit and have nothing to do with the running of the train. The TE was wrong not the passenger in this occasion.

Indeed, but I didn't think it need to be said. It was pretty obvious!