Would passengers be allowed on an ECS move?

[JoeGJ1984]

Just a hypothetical question: Would a passenger ever be allowed on an ECS move if they were there at the right time and asked the crew?

I ask because I know somebody who's been on a bus when it was returning 'empty' to the depot. (I would think it would have to be a really jobsworth driver to refuse in this instance).

ay if somebody had missed their last train and a train happened to be going ECS where they wanted to go - if they knew about it, would they be allowed on if they asked the driver and he was friendly enough?

Or if it covered a rare bit of track, etc.

Or what if somebody had missed a connection and the TOC would be obliged to provide alternative transport - perhaps if there happens to be an ECS going where they want to go, would they allow them on that (I would have thought they would rub their hands together with glee at not having to shell out for a taxi).

I remember hearing of an ECS move of the Chiltern bubblecar to the Severn Valley Railway - if one did know about it (and held a valid ticket for the route), would the crew probably be obliging if somebody wanted to come for the ride?

I certainly won't rely on being allowed on an ECS move, but was asking hypothetically. As I said above, I have a friend who's been on the equivalent on buses, so why not on trains? (There was a thread on here quite a long time ago about some late-night services calling at Queen's Park unadvertised but if you were in the know, you could use them).

 

[Hydro]

I doubt it. It happened back in the day, even to the extent of those missing their last trains being allowed on parcels and newspaper workings, but not on todays railway.

 

[nedchester]

Just a hypothetical question: Would a passenger ever be allowed on an ECS move if they were there at the right time and asked the crew?

I ask because I know somebody who's been on a bus when it was returning 'empty' to the depot. (I would think it would have to be a really jobsworth driver to refuse in this instance).

ay if somebody had missed their last train and a train happened to be going ECS where they wanted to go - if they knew about it, would they be allowed on if they asked the driver and he was friendly enough?

Or if it covered a rare bit of track, etc.

Or what if somebody had missed a connection and the TOC would be obliged to provide alternative transport - perhaps if there happens to be an ECS going where they want to go, would they allow them on that (I would have thought they would rub their hands together with glee at not having to shell out for a taxi).

I remember hearing of an ECS move of the Chiltern bubblecar to the Severn Valley Railway - if one did know about it (and held a valid ticket for the route), would the crew probably be obliging if somebody wanted to come for the ride?

I certainly won't rely on being allowed on an ECS move, but was asking hypothetically. As I said above, I have a friend who's been on the equivalent on buses, so why not on trains? (There was a thread on here quite a long time ago about some late-night services calling at Queen's Park unadvertised but if you were in the know, you could use them).

I've done a few ECS moves in the past. Last one about 5 years ago with permission of the guard but told to keep my head down when going past signal boxes etc!!!
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I doubt it. It happened back in the day, even to the extent of those missing their last trains being allowed on parcels and newspaper workings, but not on todays railway.

Yep I was travelling from Newcastle to Edinburgh in the 1980s on an overnight train but it was late so was put on the mail bags to Edinburgh (it was freezing!!)

 

[ralphchadkirk]

In short, no. Rules forbid it nowadays, although it used to be done sometimes.

 

[strange6]

Not a chance. Insurance for one thing

 

[driver9000]

The short and simple answer is no. Any crew allowing passengers to travel on ECS trains are leaving themselves open to disciplinary action.

If an ECS train was to carry passengers then authority would come from control and the train would be reclassified from a 5 to a 1 or a 2. Signalboxes would also be informed.

 

[pendolino]

I have heard of occasions when it's happened, when a passenger has fallen asleep on the last train to be woken up at the terminus with no way of getting home, but only ever with permission from and at the discretion of Control.

And it has happened by accident when train crew/station staff haven't thoroughly checked the train is empty at the terminus and have ended up back at the depot with a (usually drunk) passenger still on board.

But to turn up and hope to get permission to ride on an ECS service just to bag a rare bit of track, as in the OP: no chance.

 

[JoeGJ1984]

Not a chance. Insurance for one thing

Hard to see why insurance would be an issue - after all where is the extra risk that isn't there on the same train in a usual service (headcode beginning with 1 or 2) working?

I was just asking hypothetically rather then with the intention of atttempting to travel on an ECS service.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Hard to see why insurance would be an issue - after all where is the extra risk that isn't there on the same train in a usual service (headcode beginning with 1 or 2) working?

I was just asking hypothetically rather then with the intention of atttempting to travel on an ECS service.

Simple. TOCs will be insured to carry passengers on class 1 or 2 trains only. An insurance company won't pay out should something happen involving passengers on a 3 or 5.

 

[yorkie]

I certainly won't rely on being allowed on an ECS move.

I think you can rule out the possibility, I would advise against asking.

 

[driver9000]

I ask because I know somebody who's been on a bus when it was returning 'empty' to the depot. (I would think it would have to be a really jobsworth driver to refuse in this instance).

Bus companies are not insured to carry passengers on buses travelling 'dead' or 'empty'. Should anything happen to a passenger on a 'dead' bus that isn't supposed to be there then the insurance company doesn't pay out and the Driver leaves themselves open to dismissal (it was gross misconduct at the companies I drove for). You might see it as being a 'jobsworth' but why should the driver risk his job?

Yes, I was asked on many occasions to "drop me off on your way back" and every last one was refused.

 

[90019]

I ask because I know somebody who's been on a bus when it was returning 'empty' to the depot. (I would think it would have to be a really jobsworth driver to refuse in this instance).

Drivers can get in a lot of trouble for doing that without getting permission, so no, they're not a jobsworth if they refuse.

 

[GB]

Hard to see why insurance would be an issue - after all where is the extra risk that isn't there on the same train in a usual service (headcode beginning with 1 or 2) working?

I was just asking hypothetically rather then with the intention of atttempting to travel on an ECS service.

ECS are not run to the same standard as an in service passenger train as they can use goods lines which may not be AWS equipped and start from a position light signal which is not permitted in the rule book.

 

[chrisdoward]

And it has happened by accident when train crew/station staff haven't thoroughly checked the train is empty at the terminus and have ended up back at the depot with a (usually drunk) passenger still on board.

It happened to my Mum one time when she was travelling back to Gipsy Hill from West Croydon and the train she was on ended up at Selhurst Depot. Luckily the driver of the ECS lived near where we did in London and gave her a lift home!

 

[FGWman]

I had a trip down Clapham Junction sidings once. I heard a train stopping in the platform ran up the stairs opened door sat down . Was in the smoker so not too surprised to find no one in that section. Move off and stop. Next thing driver comes through. What you doing here mate! Good old slammers

 

[AlexS]

I've travelled on ECS moves before but as said it's not something to be relied on, certainly not to be expected. My mother was also adept at getting fast trains to call at local stations by smiling nicely at guards and drivers in her younger days!

 

[exile]

I was waiting for a train at Sankey (early 90s), heading for Manchester. 2 trains were cancelled and a 3rd went through without stopping. A 4th one pulled up at the signal and I begged to be let on - I was now an hour late for work - nothing doing!

 

[12CSVT]

Had a few 08s for haulage on ECS shunt moves at my local station in the 1980s (only because some of my mates and I knew some of the guards). As some posters have rightly said, absolutely no chance of it happening today.

 

[PinzaC55]

Had a few 08s for haulage on ECS shunt moves at my local station in the 1980s (only because some of my mates and I knew some of the guards). As some posters have rightly said, absolutely no chance of it happening today.

There was a booked 08 move in 1980-81 at Doncaster at about 02.00 where the Brick shunted part of a (usually Deltic hauled) train onto another. Wouldn't be allowed now.

 

[185]

No, has to be converted from a 5 to a 1 or 2 headcode to carry passengers.

Has happened a couple of times when an empty train has been in the right place, such as Grand National.

 

[krisk]

Bus companies are not insured to carry passengers on buses travelling 'dead' or 'empty'. Should anything happen to a passenger on a 'dead' bus that isn't supposed to be there then the insurance company doesn't pay out and the Driver leaves themselves open to dismissal (it was gross misconduct at the companies I drove for). You might see it as being a 'jobsworth' but why should the driver risk his job?

Yes, I was asked on many occasions to "drop me off on your way back" and every last one was refused.

So on that proviso, i'm waiting on Oldham Rd for a bus to town. First have sent a bus from Oldham but its running that late that the driver switches its display to Sorry Not In Service so they don't have to stop unless it is to set down. Are they allowed to do that just so they can play catch up?

 

[Barrett M95]

Some staff can travel on ECS moves between places of work (stations to depots for example), but that is all.

 

[route:oxford]

Are there any permanent easements?

Say, for example...

Dunblane Station, platform 1, is wheelchair friendly. Platform 2&3 are not.

However, 90% of services calling at Platforms 2&3 will (sometimes after a short wait), draw forward past the signal box then return to platform 1 for the return journey.

Is the correct thing to do to drop ramp and let wheelchair bound passenger off on platform 2&3 and hope a kind fellow passenger bump them up and down either bridge?

Or

To allow passenger to remain on board whilst service undertakes the undertakes the ECS move?

 

[spacehopper]

No exceptions!

This includes wheelchairs! Taxi from last wheelchair accessible station is the "reasonable adjustment".

I've known spotters to hide in the bog when a new turnback siding was opened so they could ink it.

Anyone who is carried on an ECS train who shouldn't be even if its accidental will get the crew into form 1 territory.

 

[Bittern]

I was on one about a year or two back. Train terminated at Cathcart but I wanted to go to Neilson and boarded at Mount Florida not knowing the train would only go as far as Cathcart. This was due to snow and electricity problems, so the conductor told me to stay on as the train was running ECS back to Glasgow Central, and to get a Barrhead train from there and then a bus from Barrhead.

 

[route:oxford]

No exceptions!

This includes wheelchairs! Taxi from last wheelchair accessible station is the "reasonable adjustment".

I've known spotters to hide in the bog when a new turnback siding was opened so they could ink it.

Anyone who is carried on an ECS train who shouldn't be even if its accidental will get the crew into form 1 territory.

Nice one.

So could a mother with pram choose to get an accessible taxi back from the nearest accessible station instead?

 

[9K43]

It has been custom and practice to take a mate out on a jolly when out and about on the railway.
I have taken people to Scarbrough from York for a steam ride, but the A4 blew the Westinghouse Air Brake and had to be taken off.
We got a class 56 from Donny.
Also on Charters that we used to work.
Just clear it with the Charter organiser and there was not a problem.
Allowing this to happen was in the realm of the guard.
If you have 720 passengers on the train another face would not make any problems.

 

[JoeGJ1984]

What does form 1 mean (somebody enlighten me)?

 

[313103]

What does form 1 mean (somebody enlighten me)?

Form one means you are in the the thick brown stuff! Me and others try to get you out of it!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I was on one about a year or two back.

. . . . .

the conductor told me to stay on as the train was running ECS back to Glasgow Central, and to get a Barrhead train from there and then a bus from Barrhead.

Lucky!
But I'll bet anything you like that the Guard didn't also say: "Oh, and when you get home, just make sure you tell the world that I did this for you by, hmmm, maybe posting it on an internet forum for all to see what I've done when I shouldn't." Did he?

Geez. I despair at times like this.

What does form 1 mean (somebody enlighten me)?

It means that someone with a bit of human compassion in this bitter and financially risk-averse world will, maybe have to find another way of supporting themselves and their loved ones; a fearful prospect which isn't reduced by publicisng those moments of noble human and compassionate behaviour on here. Employers don't want staff who are 'nice' to passengers, they want staff who don't increase their liabilities.

We all wish it were otherwise. But it isn't.