Woking - Basingstoke (near Hook) landslip (15/01/23)

[swt_passenger]

Genuinely interested as a software engineer... how would the rail network/engineers have known/found out about this? Are there sensors which would have indicated the slip? Or is it by chance that someone notified before a train went through?

Would love some info to draw parallels woth the software world.

Thanks

There are sensors fitted in some areas that are already seen as being vulnerable, but I don’t think they’ve been mentioned here. In this case the route between Woking and Basingstoke was already closed for engineering work when it was discovered.

It does seem more luck than anything.

I posted a link a few years ago to a company brochure about the sensors used, I’ll try and find the thread, here it is, link in post #6 there:

solar panels on sticks - between Applerley Junction and Guiseley

I got the train from Ilkley into Leeds and return yesterday Coming back I sat on the left facing the front We came off the skipton line onto the branch to Ilkley Just after the junction, on the left, there were some solar panels on what looked like temporary stands, and some yellow sticks on...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[hwl]

Around London Clay areas (particularly embankments constructed on london clay) trees (alive ones are particularly unhelpful) as the dry summer we have just experienced the trees just take all the moisture out which results in volume loss of the earthwork, desiccation issues, track faults which then when it rains can be susceptible to failure. Tree routes can be good at binding a loose topsoil/granular embankment but they just as often cause problems as reduce them.

Also when it comes to repairing or pre-emptively protecting upgrading earthworks it is an incredibly costly business. Access is an issue, you have to understand the ground model to make sure what you want to do is feasible and/or will actually do the job. Many instances throughout the country of repeated unsuccessful repairs to failures.

Not to mention that most of the earthworks in the country weren't exactly designed either, they were just built and that our understanding and knowledge of soil mechanics is relatively new compared to structural mechanics.

Indeed detailed soil mechanics maths (that worked for clays) was developed in the 1920s and popularised in the 1930s long are all the problems structure were build. By the time of the development of the maths it was already know certain things were bad idea e.g. anything involving clay!

 

[Bald Rick]

Genuinely interested as a software engineer... how would the rail network/engineers have known/found out about this? Are there sensors which would have indicated the slip? Or is it by chance that someone notified before a train went through?

Would love some info to draw parallels woth the software world.

Thanks

if the site of the slip was a known problem area, then it would be being monitored in some way, possibly by enhanced (ie frequent) inspection, possibly by remote monitoring equipment.

 

[david1212]

I will be travelling from Poole to Edinburgh on Saturday. There are lots of choices of route, what do you all reckon I should do? Possibilities:

1. Poole - Dorchester - Bristol - Birmingham - Edinburgh
2. Poole - Southampton - Bristol - Birmingham - Edinburgh
3. Poole - Basingstoke - Reading - Birmingham - Edinburgh
4. Poole - Basingstoke - Reading - London - Edinburgh
5. Poole - Basingstoke - Woking - London - Edinburgh
6. Poole - Southampton - Havant - Guildford - London - Edinburgh
7. Poole - Southampton - Arundel - London - Edinburgh

I have the return half of a super off peak return, I think most of those are valid routes even without the current disruption, though I need to check what the restrictions are for afternoon Kings Cross departures.

You have not stated your departure time. XC Bournemouth > Reading > Birmingham is only every 2 hours and the only other service Basingstoke > Reading is the GWR shuttle so fastest time to Reading is to leave Poole to connect with the XC service.
At Reading as you list either then London > Edinburgh or Birmingham > Edinburgh. For the latter the choice of via Glasgow ( presuming the ticket is valid this route ) or via York.
You have to look overall which is fastest and also consider which type of train you least dislike.
Via London is all 80x IET. Reading > Birmingham is a Voyager as is Birmingham > York. North of York depends if you stay with XC or change to either LNER or TPE, likewise if you change or not at Newcastle-upon-Tyne.
Birmingham -> Glasgow a Pendolino which IMO is the best of the three. The downside is what services Avanti actually run.

Going via Bristol must be significantly slower and I would have thought Havant or Arundel too..

 

[HantsExile]

They should put some chairs in the subway. It's quite wide and not grotty!

Not sure if this is meant to be rude or not! Is it the fact that I said I was getting too old for inter-platform dashes that you think I need chairs? Perhaps I'm just being over-sensitive! It's not chairs that are needed but a bit more notice - where possible - of platform changes (as discussed at length on other threads).

And I have nothing against Basingstoke's subway - clean, capacious and brightly lit, it's much nicer that Winchester's!

But the rest of your post talks sense, and this thread as a whole has offered really useful information so thanks to all.

 

[winks]

Why can’t SWR update journey planners for the weekend. Find it quite poor that they clearly haven’t how do passengers plan a journey back to Basingstoke in the evening, for example ?

 

[Colin1501]

Sorry if this has already been covered earlier in the thread, but I've got a quick question on the proposed slewing to re-open the line until the embankment can be permanently reinstated. Would I be right in thinking that this would involve slewing the down slow line, presumably on to the formation of the existing up fast line past the slip? This would effectively provide one up and one down line between Winchfield and Basingstoke, with trains able to call at Hook. The fast lines could be used east of Winchfield, as there are crossovers slow to fast (up) and fast to slow (down) on the London side of Winchfield Station.

 

[30907]

Why can’t SWR update journey planners for the weekend. Find it quite poor that they clearly haven’t how do passengers plan a journey back to Basingstoke in the evening, for example ?

Perhaps they haven't finished planning the service yet?

Would it be fair to assume that as there are major works this weekend there will be next weekend too? returning home from London (ideally to Eastleigh) on Sunday 29th and deciding whether to bite the bullet and book a coach, as I already have for my trip up this weekend

I would work on the assumption that Paddington-Reading-Basingstoke-Eastleigh will function if nothing else.
My daughter has used that route both ways without any gateline arguments..

To avoid confusion about ticket validity, they should simply stop selling all "via Woking" tickets and all SWR Advance and "Evening out" tickets on the mainline from Woking to Eastleigh. Then all would be valid via Reading anyway as that's a Permitted Route.

So mess up the service AND increase the fare?

 

[Signal Head]

Sorry if this has already been covered earlier in the thread, but I've got a quick question on the proposed slewing to re-open the line until the embankment can be permanently reinstated. Would I be right in thinking that this would involve slewing the down slow line, presumably on to the formation of the existing up fast line past the slip? This would effectively provide one up and one down line between Winchfield and Basingstoke, with trains able to call at Hook. The fast lines could be used east of Winchfield, as there are crossovers slow to fast (up) and fast to slow (down) on the London side of Winchfield Station.

Slew will be Down Fast into Up Fast (and back), so the Down Slow remains out of use south of Winchfield.

 

[Renternolonger]

There are sensors fitted in some areas that are already seen as being vulnerable, but I don’t think they’ve been mentioned here. In this case the route between Woking and Basingstoke was already closed for engineering work when it was discovered.

It does seem more luck than anything.

I posted a link a few years ago to a company brochure about the sensors used, I’ll try and find the thread, here it is, link in post #6 there:

solar panels on sticks - between Applerley Junction and Guiseley

I got the train from Ilkley into Leeds and return yesterday Coming back I sat on the left facing the front We came off the skipton line onto the branch to Ilkley Just after the junction, on the left, there were some solar panels on what looked like temporary stands, and some yellow sticks on...

www.railforums.co.uk

Maybe slightly different but I worked on what was the new Wimbledon No1 Court in the 90s. There are two big tower blocks of flats above Henman Hill. Not a lot of people would know that Henman Hill is a massive cut and shut service tunnel. When they cut the side of the existing hill away they placed very large retaining rods into the hill, covered it all in reinforcement and then spraycrete. Part of my job, once a week if I remember correctly, was going up the hill to take readings from what we called an inclonometer which was lowered down into large plastic tubes set a good 10 odd metres or more into the hill. The aim was to measure any slip during construction. I remember these tubes because I nicked a couple of metres of it to make a didgeridoo. It was the 90s and I was young!

 

[gazr]

Slew will be Down Fast into Up Fast (and back), so the Down Slow remains out of use south of Winchfield.

Would I be right in thinking the UF would be OOU from Basingstoke to Winchester (apart from the slewed temporary down line) as well, or can the signalling be made safe for it remain bi-directional in that short section?
Edit: Nevermind... That would involve installing pointwork, so I guess it would remain OOU.

 

[Kite159]

Would I be right in thinking the UF would be OOU from Basingstoke to Winchester (apart from the slewed temporary down line) as well, or can the signalling be made safe for it remain bi-directional in that short section?
Edit: Nevermind... That would involve installing pointwork, so I guess it would remain OOU.

Do you mean Winchfield rather than Winchester?

 

[gazr]

Do you mean Winchfield rather than Winchester?

D'oh. It's getting late Think it's time I call it a night

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Why can’t SWR update journey planners for the weekend. Find it quite poor that they clearly haven’t how do passengers plan a journey back to Basingstoke in the evening, for example ?

Because at the moment this still falls under the do not travel message.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Just watched via diagram, 2L33 (Woking - Basingstoke) do its thing. So it arrives at Farnborough on the DS and stops at P2. It then leaves towards Baskinstoke and is switched immediately to the DF and it stops. Presumably the driver then walks through the train to the other end. It then move back towards Farnborough and is switched before the station to the US and then arrives at P1. The driver has to switch ends again, and the train is then cleared all the way to Basingstoke on the US.

The return journey is easy, it simply uses the UF until just before Farnborough, where it is switched to the US and arrives at P1.

The Basingstoke/Woking shuttle is currently every 90 minutes, Due to it's direct nature the Woking bound journey is just over 30 minutes, the other way take close to an hour (due to the 2 reverses).

Do the doors open at Platform 1? RTT suggests they do and are advertising the service both when it arrives at P2 and then twenty minutes later from P1.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jan 2023 ==

Because at the moment this still falls under the do not travel message.

I don't see why you think this justifies a total lack of communication for those who do have to travel, especially when knowing they could use their tickets on other routes would make such a difference to many passengers.

 

[VWRO2]

Passengers are allowed to use their tickets on the following services;

GWR;
Basingstoke - Reading - Paddington
Westbury - Paddington
Exeter St.Davids - Paddington

Cross country;
Southampton - Reading

Buses; Stagecoach 1 Alton - Farnham/Farnborough

Information for those who may not have seen anywhere else

This information still applies, please note the GWR acceptance between Exeter/Westbury - Paddington is extra to the commercial agreement between BSK and RDG and can be withdrawn due to potential disruption on their network

 

[dgl]

Currently on a train going to Paddington and so far have had no problems with our SWR advances from Weymouth to London, an unexpected first trip on an IET and it's alright.

 

[Colin1501]

Slew will be Down Fast into Up Fast (and back), so the Down Slow remains out of use south of Winchfield.

Thanks - no down trains at Hook for the forseeable future then.

 

[infobleep]

Not cutting trees down is the main issue. This isn't about erosion but structural stability. the only good place for tree near embankments is near on the flat ground near the toe with none on the embankment itself. Trees have a higher water demand in summer and lower in wither and tne to accnetualte seasonlay soil moisture levels cycles. The added weight of trees also a mayor issue that seems to

Decent grasses and wild flowers are more than capable of handling any soil erosion issues.

Is the tree issues due to less understanding of trees and embankments when they started growing up, once steam trains were no longer running and stopping such things growing?

 

[Goldfish62]

Is the tree issues due to less understanding of trees and embankments when they started growing up, once steam trains were no longer running and stopping such things growing?

Pretty much so as I understand it, combined with the general opposition towards felling any trees.

 

[endecotp]

I will be travelling from Poole to Edinburgh on Saturday. There are lots of choices of route, what do you all reckon I should do? Possibilities:

1. Poole - Dorchester - Bristol - Birmingham - Edinburgh
2. Poole - Southampton - Bristol - Birmingham - Edinburgh
3. Poole - Basingstoke - Reading - Birmingham - Edinburgh
4. Poole - Basingstoke - Reading - London - Edinburgh
5. Poole - Basingstoke - Woking - London - Edinburgh
6. Poole - Southampton - Havant - Guildford - London - Edinburgh
7. Poole - Southampton - Arundel - London - Edinburgh

I have the return half of a super off peak return, I think most of those are valid routes even without the current disruption, though I need to check what the restrictions are for afternoon Kings Cross departures.

You have to look overall which is fastest and also consider which type of train you least dislike.

My greater concern is the current reliability of each service. For example, recenttraintimes reports that the 0945 Bournemouth to Birmingham XC has run 3 of the last 5 Saturdays (55 late in one case) and 3 of 4 weekdays this week. (Which is a better guide to Saturday reliability, recent Saturdays or the preceding Monday to Friday?) Reliability on the Birmingham to Edinburgh Avanti has also been poor, while I think LNER have done better….

 

[Signal Head]

Would I be right in thinking the UF would be OOU from Basingstoke to Winchester (apart from the slewed temporary down line) as well, or can the signalling be made safe for it remain bi-directional in that short section?
Edit: Nevermind... That would involve installing pointwork, so I guess it would remain OOU.

Installing pointwork, and an interlocking change - everything is unidirectional there, many signals are Automatics.

 

[fandroid]

So mess up the service AND increase the fare?

Bizarrely, via Woking tickets are now more expensive than "Any Permitted", so are the default on any online transaction. The difference was always a matter of a few pence anyway, aimed at simply capturing the whole ticket price for SWT and SWR. I doubt that SWR ever offered much in the way of a discount for the Advance and Evening Out tickets, the aim being the same, ie capturing the whole revenue.

 

[Fiyero]

I would work on the assumption that Paddington-Reading-Basingstoke-Eastleigh will function if nothing else.
My daughter has used that route both ways without any gateline arguments..

Thank you. I have often gone via Reading in times of planned disruption but due to the unknown-ness of the current situation have bitten the bullet and bought another coach ticket

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Do the doors open at Platform 1? RTT suggests they do and are advertising the service both when it arrives at P2 and then twenty minutes later from P1.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jan 2023 ==


I don't see why you think this justifies a total lack of communication for those who do have to travel, especially when knowing they could use their tickets on other routes would make such a difference to many passengers.

Whilst I agree with your sentiments these days the railway if it pushes a Do Not Travel Notice does then discourage travel.

Hopefully things will be easier once they’ve done the works this weekends to slew the Down Fast.

 

[nw1]

Because at the moment this still falls under the do not travel message.

I do find this "do not travel" attitude rather excessively moralising and not terribly helpful.

I would like to see an alternative, more intelligent message such as "the line between Basingstoke and Woking has collapsed, if you intend to travel that way please expect long and unpredictable delays, as well as short-notice cancellations".

More honest, and not trying to morally judge people who wish to travel. So people know it might take a long time, but people who are willing to risk such delays can do so.

It reminds me of blanket closure notices in public forests when there are forestry works, which also apply at weekends, when people are not working. Again a "pass here at own risk; we will not be liable for any injury howsoever caused" would be a more intelligent approach rather than a blanket closure at weekends when no-one is working anyway. There does seem to be a fondness for a "thou shalt not" attitude, rather than "do it at your own risk, don't blame us if it all goes wrong" approaches these days.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jan 2023 ==

Bizarrely, via Woking tickets are now more expensive than "Any Permitted", so are the default on any online transaction.

If you mean "via Woking" is the default, that sounds very dodgy to me, in that it would be selling the more expensive ticket. The default should always be the cheapest valid non-advance ticket, surely.

 

[kristiang85]

I do find this "do not travel" attitude rather excessively moralising and not terribly helpful.

I would like to see an alternative, more intelligent message such as "the line between Basingstoke and Woking has collapsed, if you intend to travel that way please expect long and unpredictable delays, as well as short-notice cancellations".

More honest, and not trying to morally judge people who wish to travel. So people know it might take a long time, but people who are willing to risk such delays can do so.

Quite. It feels uncomfortably reminiscent of the COVID era, to be honest, but now simply it feels like a lack of any empathy towards paying passengers who might want to get somewhere.

I live in Basingstoke, I don't drive, and often need to be in London for work and social events. It was pretty horrendous going in once this week, and the thought that this might go on until Easter is a bit disconcerting, but it would be made a lot better if one felt that SWR were doing their utmost to ameliorate the situation for passengers.

I don't mind delays and longer journeys if I know what to expect, and I can modify my lifestyle accordingly, but right now it does feel a bit of an unknown.

 

[david1212]

My greater concern is the current reliability of each service. For example, recenttraintimes reports that the 0945 Bournemouth to Birmingham XC has run 3 of the last 5 Saturdays (55 late in one case) and 3 of 4 weekdays this week. (Which is a better guide to Saturday reliability, recent Saturdays or the preceding Monday to Friday?)

Once you have got to Reading even if multiple changes and waits at e.g. Southampton and Basingstoke then going to London to head north gives the most options.
Do check on the day and ideally live but I do not think heading east from Southampton to get to London is likely to be more reliable.

Reliability on the Birmingham to Edinburgh Avanti has also been poor, while I think LNER have done better….

IMO here LNER win as first plannng to run more trains and second the trains are more likely to actually run through to the destination. Both Avanti and TPE are both less likely to actually run the planned trains at all and if they do not terminate short.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

How many services normally operate up and down the Woking - Basingstoke line, on a typical weekday?

 

[Sultan]

How many services normally operate up and down the Woking - Basingstoke line, on a typical weekday?

Normally 2 stopping services each way per hour. At least 1 semi fast on the up (timetabled to terminate at Farnborough but actually continues to London - I think they do this to stop confused passengers joining it in error at Southampton as it stops at most stations south of Basingstoke) - not sure if there's and equivalent Down.

And then there are 2tph each way fast towards Salisbury, and at least 4tph fast each way down to Southampton.

So quite a few to plan for.