WMT Digital Fraud Team

[SCDR_WMR]

Not sure is this is the right place to place this, admins feel free to move to a more suitable place.

Recently, we (LNR conductors) have been asking for more detail around RPI revenue duties and what the team(s) are up to so we can assist where possible.

Turns out WMR now have a dedicated Digital Fraud team which have a very defined relationship with ticket retailers (especially TrainLine), which is proving to be a 'very valuable' asset against fare evasion. Or at least, obtaining fares due.
Predominantly looking at refund abuse, Railcard discount abuse and short faring (purchase/barrier scan within x-time). Also going off conductor led intel from ticket/booking numbers to gain digital ticketing history, etc.

They are reporting in the ten's of thousands of £££ per week in revenue paid back from investigations, on top of the thousands of penalty fares and MG11s given in person. There's been a couple of extremely high value refunders caught which must have been going back a long time.

I may be naïve, but I didn't realise just how much is being lost even at a single TOC. Do other TOCs now have similar teams achieving similar results? I it just me who's amazed at the numbers involved, and how quickly the results have been ( believe the team started it's work around 6-8 weeks ago).

 

[Narrowgauge725]

It is good to hear that something is being done about the loss to the TOCs. Being someone who pays the correct fare all the time it might long term help keep fares down.

 

[Watershed]

Not sure is this is the right place to place this, admins feel free to move to a more suitable place.

Recently, we (LNR conductors) have been asking for more detail around RPI revenue duties and what the team(s) are up to so we can assist where possible.

Turns out WMR now have a dedicated Digital Fraud team which have a very defined relationship with ticket retailers (especially TrainLine), which is proving to be a 'very valuable' asset against fare evasion. Or at least, obtaining fares due.
Predominantly looking at refund abuse, Railcard discount abuse and short faring (purchase/barrier scan within x-time). Also going off conductor led intel from ticket/booking numbers to gain digital ticketing history, etc.

They are reporting in the ten's of thousands of £££ per week in revenue paid back from investigations, on top of the thousands of penalty fares and MG11s given in person. There's been a couple of extremely high value refunders caught which must have been going back a long time.

I may be naïve, but I didn't realise just how much is being lost even at a single TOC. Do other TOCs now have similar teams achieving similar results? I it just me who's amazed at the numbers involved, and how quickly the results have been ( believe the team started it's work around 6-8 weeks ago).

Interesting. As always, I'm sure this will ensnare quite a few people who are up to no good. However, based on what happened over at Greater Anglia when they launched a similar initiative, I do have concerns about what this team will do when they discover what they suspect to be fraud. We know that WMT isn't particularly prosecution heavy, and certainly it doesn't routinely threaten people with that as their first step, in the same way that other TOCs (such as Northern) do. However, perhaps that will change with this initiative.

I'd also like to know what safeguards are in place, because a lot of TOCs seem to think that the "prevention of crime" exemption from the GDPR is all-encompassing and allows them to snoop around as soon as they detect any suspected wrongdoing whatsoever by someone. That's not automatically the case and we have heard of many cases where such data requests seem to be unfounded and possibly unlawful as a result.

Certainly one to keep an eye on.

It is good to hear that something is being done about the loss to the TOCs. Being someone who pays the correct fare all the time it might long term help keep fares down.

Ah, that old chestnut! It's a common refrain used in industry press releases, but it's never been remotely true. The level of fare evasion has no impact on the level of fares; regulated fare increases are purely determined based on the political expediency (i.e. what percentage will it be relative to RPI), and unregulated fares were increased by whatever level the TOC needed to meet its commercial and financial targets before Covid - now they're generally just increased by the same amount as regulated fares.

In all cases, fare evasion "merely" impacts the finances of the TOC (pre-Covid), and now the relevant authority that lets out the contract (post-Covid). Of course, it wouldn't make quite the same headlines to say "fare evaders reduce multibillion transport group's profits by 5%", would it...

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Is it just me who's amazed at the numbers involved, and how quickly the results have been ( believe the team started it's work around 6-8 weeks ago).

I hope this doesn't come across as cynical as I don't have a problem with the idea of fare enforcement. But the good results may not last: this is a first attempt, so the pool of historic fare dodging to fish in will be well -stocked. And as this work becomes better known, fare dodgers will be deterred: hopefully to do less dodging but potentially to do harder to detect dodging.

 

[AdamWW]

I may be naïve, but I didn't realise just how much is being lost even at a single TOC. Do other TOCs now have similar teams achieving similar results? I it just me who's amazed at the numbers involved, and how quickly the results have been ( believe the team started it's work around 6-8 weeks ago).

It is pretty clear from this forum that the fare money being paid back will be money lost in a very theoretical sense, and far more than the money which the railway would have received had the correct fare been paid in the first place.

E.g. someone fails to renew their 16-25 railcard for a few months and ends up having to pay for the full anytime fare for each journey on top of the railcard discounted off peak fare they paid for a large number of journeys.

But if they had renewed, the railway would have gained £30 at most (and probably not that because they'll just end up with one at the end that doesn't run the full year).

We can discuss all we like the morality of how the railway defines lost revenue in railcard cases (though in this thread we shouldn't) but I don't see how you can dispute the fact that the money in fares raised by this activity can't be taken as a good indicator of how much fare evasion actually costs the industry.

And in more serious cases (e.g. short ticketing) it assumes that all passengers doing so would otherwise have travelled by train at the correct fare, which I suspect is not the case.

(I presume this total is also overcounting because if you have an invalid ticket, the amount already paid isn't taken into account when charging for a new anytime ticket).

 

[Hadders]

I am not surprised to hear about this at all. Online purchasing, barcoded tickets where every scan of a ticket (at a gateline or onboard) is recorded in a central database and piecing it together with refund details and co-operation from retailers makes it very easy to join the dots.

The rail industry is not unique with this problem, digital fraud is a massive problem for retailers. A read of threads in this section of the forum does show that TOCs and retailers (especially Trainline) are working together more than ever.

Fraud and fare evasion has always been a thing, my view is that how it's been conducted has changed over the years and identifying it has become as much of a back-office function for fraud investigators as RPI sting operations at stations and onboard.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The danger with this of course is that it means you effectively can't trust being given discretion because you may later be pulled up for it with no evidence. Time discretion was ALWAYS given either in writing or via a scan and note added to the e-ticket.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Interesting. As always, I'm sure this will ensnare quite a few people who are up to no good. However, based on what happened over at Greater Anglia when they launched a similar initiative, I do have concerns about what this team will do when they discover what they suspect to be fraud. We know that WMT isn't particularly prosecution heavy, and certainly it doesn't routinely threaten people with that as their first step, in the same way that other TOCs (such as Northern) do. However, perhaps that will change with this initiative.

They do say that they prefer to be reimbursed rather than prosecute, and seeing the size of some of these payments, if they aren't taking them to court then the only reason they prosecute anyone is through lack of response.

Something to be aware of for anyone PFd by WMR - they will almost always settle out of court if contacted. Failure to comply and you will be prosecuted.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Apr 2023 ==

I hope this doesn't come across as cynical as I don't have a problem with the idea of fare enforcement. But the good results may not last: this is a first attempt, so the pool of historic fare dodging to fish in will be well -stocked. And as this work becomes better known, fare dodgers will be deterred: hopefully to do less dodging but potentially to do harder to detect dodging.

Absolutely agree, I can see it being highly 'profitable' now, but much harder as time goes on. Then they can resume their roles as RPIs on the network

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Apr 2023 ==

The danger with this of course is that it means you effectively can't trust being given discretion because you may later be pulled up for it with no evidence. Time discretion was ALWAYS given either in writing or via a scan and note added to the e-ticket.

I guess that's a valid point, something I will definitely look to improve from my service. That's what the notes on the scanners are for, I also now issue zero fare tickets where necessary and if RPIs look to work my trains, I do point out anyone who has been given discretionary travel etc.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Apr 2023 ==

It is pretty clear from this forum that the fare money being paid back will be money lost in a very theoretical sense, and far more than the money which the railway would have received had the correct fare been paid in the first place.

Surely that is the 'penalty' of failing to purchase or refunding used by not scanned tickets. That's the deterrent right?

Otherwise there's no loss from not having the correct ticket, or not thinking to refund because it wasn't scanned on board. Whether the amount is fair or consistent with the offence is another subject entirely.

 

[AdamWW]

Surely that is the 'penalty' of failing to purchase or refunding used by not scanned tickets. That's the deterrent right?

Otherwise there's no loss from not having the correct ticket, or not thinking to refund because it wasn't scanned on board. Whether the amount is fair or consistent with the offence is another subject entirely.

The point I was trying to make is that - as you say - the amounts demanded include a penalty element. Somtimes a very large one.

Therefore it is not correct to equate the revenue generated to the amount of money lost. This is what I thought your original post was saying and aplogies if I misunderstood.

 

[Gaelan]

But if they had renewed, the railway would have gained £30 at most (and probably not that because they'll just end up with one at the end that doesn't run the full year).

Rather off-topic, but I don't believe there is such a thing - it's fully permitted to purchase a 16-25 railcard on the eve of your 26th birthday and get the full year (or even 3 years!) out of it.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

The point I was trying to make is that - as you say - the amounts demanded include a penalty element. Somtimes a very large one.

Therefore it is not correct to equate the revenue generated to the amount of money lost. This is what I thought your original post was saying and aplogies if I misunderstood.

Right, yes, they obviously don't specify how much extra they get on top of the fares owed. Presume there's likely to be a set value at the low end but possibly a scale for the high value ones.

I would imagine it's not 'far higher' on average if they are mostly dealing with the higher end of the scale.

 

[AdamWW]

Rather off-topic, but I don't believe there is such a thing - it's fully permitted to purchase a 16-25 railcard on the eve of your 26th birthday and get the full year (or even 3 years!) out of it.

Yes off topic but in the interests of accuracy I believe you can only get one extra year even with a 3 year railcard. (Likewise with a family railcard and children who were under 16 when the railcard was purchased).

And I take your point that you won't end up with a partial year railcard, but anyone sensible will renew shortly before they become ineligable therefore not getting the full year(s) out of the previous railcard. Either way, they've not saved themselves any money from forgetting to renew in time.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Apr 2023 ==

Right, yes, they obviously don't specify how much extra they get on top of the fares owed. Presume there's likely to be a set value at the low end but possibly a scale for the high value ones.

I would imagine it's not 'far higher' on average if they are mostly dealing with the higher end of the scale.

But the fares "recoverd" themselves are likely not what the culprit saved - even assuming that they would have travelled if paying full price.

If you imagine someone persitently short faring off peak then throw the book at them by all means, but don't pretend that by charging them a full anytime single each way for each offense corresponds to the money they have lost the industry by their actions.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Yes off topic but in the interests of accuracy I believe you can only get one extra year even with a 3 year railcard. (Likewise with a family railcard and children who were under 16 when the railcard was purchased).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Apr 2023 ==



But the fares "recoverd" themselves are likely not what the culprit saved - even assuming that they would have travelled if paying full price.

If you imagine someone persitently short faring off peak then throw the book at them by all means, but don't pretend that by charging them a full anytime single each way for each offense corresponds to the money they have lost the industry by their actions.

I know what you're getting at, but this team are not dealing with first time offenders. Mostly very calculated and planned, long term evasion.

In these instances I feel it is fair to ignore the deliberately short tickets and charge full whack for each occurrence. Pay correctly once, or attempt to cheat the system and pay twice.

Whilst the Railcard issue is more of a grey area - I e. TL sharing details of people using expired railcards for instance is morally wrong (it should just remove that Railcard or grey it out etc), if it's a long term evasion issue, there needs to be a deterrent in my eyes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I know what you're getting at, but this team are not dealing with first time offenders. Mostly very calculated and planned, long term evasion.

I'm totally fine with that. I just worry that, given the railway's tendency to go after easy targets, that I'll end up with one of those letters because e.g. I went off-route, or worse the system thinks I went off-route, and staff on the ground accepted it but in 6 months' time it comes back to bite.

Enforcement of break of journey restrictions (which generally aren't enforced unless someone takes the mick i.e. using it to evade a fare) is another possibility. Unfortunately BoJ isn't defined any more, so I'm just waiting for a TOC to define it as "changing trains unnecessarily" and sending letters out.

 

[WesternLancer]

Shame the Railcard team aren't joining the dots with Trainline etc to prevent Trainline users with expired Railcards from buying discounted tickets by mistake. No doubt an easily worked up tech solution to this for many Railcard holders - just no great incentive to create and implement it I suppose...

Still, good that tech solutions to evasion are being used (much of which I suspect is deliberate evasion not error, tho the complexity of the ticket system will lead to passenger error or misunderstanding).

I think we have only had one recent WMR case on the forums that I can recall with someone whose son was picked up by this method for persistent evasion (short faring I think, possibly). A few weeks ago maybe.

 

[L401CJF]

TFW have setup something which sounds very similar. Very effective too I believe.

 

[Adam Williams]

Shame the Railcard team aren't joining the dots with Trainline etc to prevent Trainline users with expired Railcards from buying discounted tickets by mistake

I'd be very interested in a solution to this that isn't terrible from a User Experience perspective

 

[Dai Corner]

I'd be very interested in a solution to this that isn't terrible from a User Experience perspective

I think we've discussed this before, but requiring the user to enter the expiry date of their Railcard at the point of purchase, even if you don't do anything with it, would prevent the forgetful ones accidentally buying discounted tickets to use with expired cards. Anyone entering a made-up date would clearly be committing fraud.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think we've discussed this before, but requiring the user to enter the expiry date of their Railcard at the point of purchase, even if you don't do anything with it, would prevent the forgetful ones accidentally buying discounted tickets to use with expired cards. Anyone entering a made-up date would clearly be committing fraud.

I'd say enter Railcard number *and* expiry date. Even if nothing is done with it it does force you to look at the card, ensure it's the right one, ensure it's not expired etc.

On the apps, where doing that may be a faff, if you could enter that once when it remembers it, then it would warn you and remove the Railcard if it had expired.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Shame the Railcard team aren't joining the dots with Trainline etc to prevent Trainline users with expired Railcards from buying discounted tickets by mistake. No doubt an easily worked up tech solution to this for many Railcard holders - just no great incentive to create and implement it I suppose...

Still, good that tech solutions to evasion are being used (much of which I suspect is deliberate evasion not error, tho the complexity of the ticket system will lead to passenger error or misunderstanding).

I think we have only had one recent WMR case on the forums that I can recall with someone whose son was picked up by this method for persistent evasion (short faring I think, possibly). A few weeks ago maybe.

A live API into the Railcard database is available , I don't know if anyone is using it yet.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A live API into the Railcard database is available , I don't know if anyone is using it yet.

Does that only include online Railcards (or those purchased online), or does it also include station-issued cardboard ones?

 

[spag23]

I think we've discussed this before, but requiring the user to enter the expiry date of their Railcard at the point of purchase, even if you don't do anything with it, would prevent the forgetful ones accidentally buying discounted tickets to use with expired cards. Anyone entering a made-up date would clearly be committing fraud.

Yes, we have discussed this before, but the idea always runs out of steam.
Given the number of highly distraught posters (often students) we get here, who've fallen foul of overlooking the expiry date, this solution should really be addressed. Many of these posters seem near suicidal, being in fear of deportation or being denied their chosen profession. The damage this does to their studies, and to their mental welfare is wholly out of proportion to the "crime" of missing a £30 renewal.
And then there's the hardship impact of paying hundreds of pounds for a simple act of omission.

A more proportionate remedy/disincentive might be for the TOC to offer the offender a chance to extend their Railcard - from its expiry to the interception date - at a special rate of, say, £10 a month. This would be instead of any applying any fare correction.
The downside is that the TOCs would miss out on the ongoing windfall revenue of this low-hanging fruit.

 

[AlterEgo]

Of course, these fraud teams rely mostly on circumstantial evidence like "this guy has done ten refunds this month!" and would be unable to mount a criminal prosecution solely on that basis. They'd need to actually catch someone travelling, perhaps on CCTV or, better still, in person - or more likely simply get a naive person to confess. They're hardly dealing with hardened criminals.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Does that only include online Railcards (or those purchased online), or does it also include station-issued cardboard ones?

All railcards as station forward their application forms to a data centre

 

[Bletchleyite]

All railcards as station forward their application forms to a data centre

Thanks. Presumably though there'd be a delay in updating the station ones in that case, a bit like the way when you first change car insurer you can end up "flagging up as uninsured" because the Motor Insurance Database hasn't yet been updated?

 

[Haywain]

All Most railcards as stations are supposed to forward their application forms to a data centre

Corrected that for you. And then there are the railcards that get issued without the forms being (properly) completed.

 

[Adam Williams]

Making customers go through the tedious process of typing in a railcard number before purchase is a non-starter (and exactly what I meant by "terrible from a User Experience perspective") unless every retail channel is required to do it in the same way - TVMs included.

 

[Haywain]

All railcards

Does this include all online retailers?

 

[Wallsendmag]

Making customers go through the tedious process of typing in a railcard number before purchase is a non-starter (and exactly what I meant by "terrible from a User Experience perspective") unless every retail channel is required to do it in the same way - TVMs included.

It would also slim down the number of posts on here.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Apr 2023 ==

Does this include all online retailers?

Anyone that wants to use it I believe.

 

[Adam Williams]

It would also slim down the number of posts on here.

At the expense of making the process annoying for the 99% of customers who can be trusted to pick their railcard discount themselves.

If we're going down this route, I would rather require:

• Every railcard retailer - including RDG - to be able to act as an identity provider (OpenID Connect) so that on the web, customers can simply authenticate with their railcard retailer and be redirected back to the retailer which then can be informed of all expiry dates and available railcards to allow the customer to select from
• Every app-based railcard retailer - including RDG - to support a mechanism for other apps on the device to retrieve information about active railcards (e.g. implicit intents on Android)
• All of this engineering work to be funded by whoever decides to push it

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IMO the bigger problem here is why people aren't renewing their railcards consistently. I would blame railcard retailers who don't send out renewal notifications properly for this (I never got one for my 16-25) rather than messing with the purchase flow.