WMT Digital Fraud Team

[Gaelan]

For one I can think of TVM's which will happily sell you a single discounted group ticket without any warning that this is probably not what you should be doing.

That explains it - I’ve several times seen passengers get in trouble for traveling alone on Two Together cards and never knew how they managed to get just a single ticket.

 

[AdamWW]

That explains it - I’ve several times seen passengers get in trouble for traveling alone on Two Together cards and never knew how they managed to get just a single ticket.

I think this is something different though similar.

The group discount (I think - I've never used it) just lets small groups of 3 or more people travel at a discount without any railcard needed.
I can see why it makes sense to sell them singly (then everyone can pay for their own ticket) but I think some kind of clear warning would be useful.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Apr 2023 ==

I don't think it should be mandatory to store a Railcard, but if you do, having the expiry would help to prevent using an expired railcard.

Even I simple pop-up when you select a Railcard for you tick that states you must travel with the Railcard.

If someone is going to fail to realise their railcard has expired, having a pop-up that appears every time saying "Don't forget your railcard" probably isn't going to change that.

 

[bcarmicle]

For one I can think of TVM's which will happily sell you a single discounted group ticket without any warning that this is probably not what you should be doing.

Oh wow; hadn't thought of that - that seems quite bad

 

[jfollows]

All this talk about railcards:

As I understand it, a valid railcard needs to be held and presented on demand at the time of travel, not at the time of booking. National Rail Conditions of Travel (https://assets.ctfassets.net/e8xgeg...e9b4e6/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel.pdf) states:

1. If you use a Railcard to purchase a discounted Ticket, you must carry the Railcard (and have it available for inspection) when you travel. The Railcard must be within its period of validity when you travel (in other words it should not have expired).

My Two Together railcard expired in February, I am fully aware of this, and I did not renew it.

At some point when two of us decide to make a trip to London I will buy railcard-discounted tickets and I will buy a Two Together railcard. Obviously I won't be buying a ticket for immediate or near-immediate travel, and will probably buy a physical railcard and have it posted to me.

That's all perfectly valid today (please correct me if I'm wrong) and all this talk about entering railcard numbers at time of purchase and so on won't work if so.

When I travel I will have a valid railcard, of course. I know that my last railcard has expired and I know that I need to buy a new one if I want to buy use discounted tickets.

Separately, I have a Senior railcard which I use when I travel on my own, and Northern's Duo tickets mean it's not worth paying for a Two Together railcard for local trips.

 

[Kite159]

Some pay when challenged passengers don't realize how much of a digital fingerprint they leave behind when they purchase tickets online. Either e-tickets from the closest station which flag up as not having entry scans at stations with barriers [i.e. Five Ways to Birmingham New Street] or when they select TOD to pick the tickets up from their home station to simply bypass the barriers at the destination station.

As for entering railcard numbers & dates when booking tickets online, or even at a TVM, that would be seriously off-putting to many, especially if there is a queue behind and they already struggle to use the journey planner type TVMs when wanting a simple day return from X to Y.

 

[Hadders]

Buying a ticket for someone else, with their Railcard [or its details], is not a fraudulent or prohibited activity, so not something for the fraud team to be bothered by.

I know that and would robustly defend my position but many won't. I am the 'go to' person in my family for rail tickets and legitimately purchase a variety of tickets for friends and family, many with railcards. My online booking history for the past couple of years will show tickets purchased with an Annual Gold Card, a Netwrok Railcard, a Disabled Persons Railcard, a Senior Railcard and a Family & Friends Railcard as well as undiscounted tickets.

Anyone looking at my online booking history might think there was something fishy going on....

All this talk about railcards:

As I understand it, a valid railcard needs to be held and presented on demand at the time of travel, not at the time of booking. National Rail Conditions of Travel (https://assets.ctfassets.net/e8xgeg...e9b4e6/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel.pdf) states:




My Two Together railcard expired in February, I am fully aware of this, and I did not renew it.

At some point when two of us decide to make a trip to London I will buy railcard-discounted tickets and I will buy a Two Together railcard. Obviously I won't be buying a ticket for immediate or near-immediate travel, and will probably buy a physical railcard and have it posted to me.

That's all perfectly valid today (please correct me if I'm wrong) and all this talk about entering railcard numbers at time of purchase and so on won't work if so.

When I travel I will have a valid railcard, of course. I know that my last railcard has expired and I know that I need to buy a new one if I want to buy use discounted tickets.

Separately, I have a Senior railcard which I use when I travel on my own, and Northern's Duo tickets mean it's not worth paying for a Two Together railcard for local trips.

Totally agree with this. I purchased some two-together railcard discounted Advance tickets at my local station last year. The tickets were purchased a couple of months ahead of travel, when they went on sale to get the best price. I used the station because I needed to purchase the railcard. The ticket clerk sold the tickets but said 'no need to buy the railcard today as you'll lose a couple of months validity, just make sure you've bought it before you travel'. Excellent service and I purchased the railcard from the ticket office on the day of travel.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For one I can think of TVM's which will happily sell you a single discounted group ticket without any warning that this is probably not what you should be doing.

A warning would be handy, but sometimes you need to add someone to a group.

 

[Tetchytyke]

There may well be a middle ground, but if someone has saved hundreds of pounds in discounts while not having a railcard, £30 is not the middle ground and £30 is what you are proposing.

Just to come back to this point. The loss to the railway of not having a valid railcard is £30- the cost of the railcard*. The loss to the railway is not the difference between the full price and the discounted ticket.

*Assuming the person is otherwise entitled to hold the railcard.

So actually, £30 IS the middle ground, or at least the bottom end of it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Apr 2023 ==

If someone is going to fail to realise their railcard has expired, having a pop-up that appears every time saying "Don't forget your railcard" probably isn't going to change that

Probably.

What I’m surprised about is how bad the renewal reminders are from Railcard. I have a digital Two Together railcard and neither the app nor the central email system sent me any sort of reminder when it expired. I can see how easy it is to forget to renew if you’re not paying attention.

It’s odd, as usually a company would be constantly nagging you to renew a subscription.

 

[AdamWW]

A warning would be handy, but sometimes you need to add someone to a group.

Yes but - for example - you might want to add another passenger to tickets purchased with a family railcard and I don't think TVM's will normally allow that, so I'm a little surprised they offer it in this case.

 

[fandroid]

I think we could start a valid and useful thread which aimed at getting a consensus on the inadvertent expired Railcard issue. That's not really the point of this thread and the OP's original post was about exposing fraud by digital means. If we could somehow persuade the industry to come up with a national standard, we might have done a reasonably large number of otherwise law-abiding people a good service

 

[AdamWW]

That's not really the point of this thread and the OP's original post was about exposing fraud by digital means.

That's true.

(And I think there was a thread on that that was closed without any consensus being reached).

And if the digital fraud team confine themselves to looking for fraud, then they won't have an interest in people using expired railcards.

If.

 

[Cowley]

I think we could start a valid and useful thread which aimed at getting a consensus on the inadvertent expired Railcard issue. That's not really the point of this thread and the OP's original post was about exposing fraud by digital means. If we could somehow persuade the industry to come up with a national standard, we might have done a reasonably large number of otherwise law-abiding people a good service

That's true.

(And I think there was a thread on that that was closed without any consensus being reached).

And if the digital fraud team confine themselves to looking for fraud, then they won't have an interest in people using expired railcards.

There actually is a thread on that already:

Expired railcards. Is there a better way of ensuring this doesn’t happen by accident?

The OP may need to consider/explain how he failed for so long to notice the prominently featured expiry date on a card that he (always?) carried. mods note - split from here. It's tricky to explain in the circs, but in real life there's no actual need to ever look at your own Railcard when...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[AdamWW]

It’s odd, as usually a company would be constantly nagging you to renew a subscription.

Well the cynical answer (and not one that I think is actually the reason) is that usually if you fail to renew a subscription the company loses money.
If you fail to renew a railcard they are likely to get far more out of you than the £30 renewal.

 

[fandroid]

There actually is a thread on that already:

Expired railcards. Is there a better way of ensuring this doesn’t happen by accident?

The OP may need to consider/explain how he failed for so long to notice the prominently featured expiry date on a card that he (always?) carried. mods note - split from here. It's tricky to explain in the circs, but in real life there's no actual need to ever look at your own Railcard when...

www.railforums.co.uk

Cheers. And I think I already contributed to that!

The problem with ever coming to a consensus is that to do that the discussion needs a leader/summariser. As it is we all just shove in our own thoughts/expertise and those then float about until the tread expires due to nothing new turning up.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Apr 2023 ==

Edit:. Having had a look at that thread I see it's in the Speculative Discussion part of the Forum. No wonder I had forgotten about it, as that section really only does what it says on the tin - allows folk to ramble on forever.

It's a serious issue that's turned up a lot on Disputes and Prosecutions from people scared out of their wits at what a bit of muddle-headedness has landed them in. It deserves a more prominent location.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Apr 2023 ==

 

[jon0844]

Anything you need to renew: put a reminder in your Google calendar (or whatever calendar you prefer to use). Simple.

 

[Doubleplus]

As for entering railcard numbers & dates when booking tickets online, or even at a TVM, that would be seriously off-putting to many, especially if there is a queue behind

But paying full fare and not getting the 33% discount would be more offputting still, I’d imagine.

Maybe for purchases at physical TVMs, physical Railcards could include contactless/smart card technology, so that they can be easily and quickly presented and validated?

 

[DeverseSam]

Anyone looking at my online booking history might think there was something fishy going

You can buy from https://tickets.railforums.co.uk as they aren’t part of trainline database

 

[Doubleplus]

What I’m surprised about is how bad the renewal reminders are from Railcard. I have a digital Two Together railcard and neither the app nor the central email system sent me any sort of reminder when it expired. I can see how easy it is to forget to renew if you’re not paying attention.

It’s odd, as usually a company would be constantly nagging you to renew a subscription.

Not to deny your experience, but I'd found the Two Together railcard to be pretty noisy in terms of reminding me to renew - reminders one month out, one week out, 48 hours out, 24 hours out, and still more emails after expiry, urging me to renew. (See attached.)

That said, those emails are from 2020, and in attempting to renew my railcards recently, it does seem that not all email from railcard seems to actually arrive, so it may be that their mail system is not the best.

Network Railcard also sent me a similar flurry of emails (in 2017) prompting renewal - although I only found out recently that I could also use it for two-person journeys (within the NSE area) so I might have been unnecessarily doubling up on railcards for a little while.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Some pay when challenged passengers don't realize how much of a digital fingerprint they leave behind when they purchase tickets online. Either e-tickets from the closest station which flag up as not having entry scans at stations with barriers [i.e. Five Ways to Birmingham New Street] or when they select TOD to pick the tickets up from their home station to simply bypass the barriers at the destination station.

Of course you need to be careful using information like that to judge passengers. For example in terms of barriers they are sometimes left open etc.

 

[fandroid]

Going back to the original topic. I agree that the new digital team will probably mop up some serious offenders. Doughnutting can only conveniently be done online and the digital trail should be obvious. However, the legality of "fishing expeditions" is extremely doubtful unless an offender has actually been caught out on a train or at a gateline, so justifying a reasonable doubt about their travel history. The TOC might get a nasty shock if they picked on a clued-up person with a perfectly legitimate reason for their unusual ticket purchasing pattern.

 

[AdamWW]

Going back to the original topic. I agree that the new digital team will probably mop up some serious offenders. Doughnutting can only conveniently be done online and the digital trail should be obvious. However, the legality of "fishing expeditions" is extremely doubtful unless an offender has actually been caught out on a train or at a gateline, so justifying a reasonable doubt about their travel history. The TOC might get a nasty shock if they picked on a clued-up person with a perfectly legitimate reason for their unusual ticket purchasing pattern.

I presume a lot of this relies on people being not being clued up.

If I'm buying 16-18 railcard discounted tickets and I'm older than that, they might demand proof that I bought them for someone entitled to them and not me but can they prosecute me if I don't provide that proof? I hope not! I don't see how strict liability can be used here because even though they don't have to prove intent, it's their responsibilty to prove that the criminal act took place, not the accused to prove that it didn't.

Presumably it's easier in the case of on-going activity such as dougnutting because once you're aware of it you can catch them in the act.

 

[DeverseSam]

The TOC might get a nasty shock

Like a strongly-worded letter? what else can the passenger do if wrongly accused?

 

[AlterEgo]

Like a strongly-worded letter? what else can the passenger do if wrongly accused?

If the accusations are completely unfounded and based solely on one’s purchase history, refuse to acknowledge the allegations.

 

[Kite159]

Of course you need to be careful using information like that to judge passengers. For example in terms of barriers they are sometimes left open etc.

It wouldn't be too hard to check to see if the barriers have been in use at the time. And a history of e-tickets from a station with barriers which have never been used to enter said station will set alarm bells ringing.

 

[AlterEgo]

It wouldn't be too hard to check to see if the barriers have been in use at the time. And a history of e-tickets from a station with barriers which have never been used to enter said station will set alarm bells ringing.

It still wouldn’t come anything like close to proving a case.

 

[AdamWW]

It still wouldn’t come anything like close to proving a case.

I suppose it doesn't need to if you can either:
1) Catch the passenger in the act
2) Get them to incriminate themselves

 

[gray1404]

I buy etickets all the time from a station with barriers and never scan the ticket. Reason is I am already on the train and hold a zonal ticket covering me upto that station. I commence my journey from an unbarriered station too. I would take great exception if my behaviour was ever questioned.

 

[jon0844]

I buy etickets all the time from a station with barriers and never scan the ticket. Reason is I am already on the train and hold a zonal ticket covering me upto that station. I commence my journey from an unbarriered station too. I would take great exception if my behaviour was ever questioned.

If you were suspected of anything, given a lack of scan in or out is a red flag, you'd simply show your zonal ticket and that would be it.

E-ticket fraud is massive now, so anyone p(l)aying by the rules will want this scam sorted out, no?

 

[gray1404]

If you were suspected of anything, given a lack of scan in or out is a red flag, you'd simply show your zonal ticket and that would be it.

E-ticket fraud is massive now, so anyone p(l)aying by the rules will want this scam sorted out, no?

I would take the view they've no right to come fishing afterwards. If they want to check my tickets and catch me doing something wrong if I was, check my tickets at the start, during or at the end of my journey and I will gladly show both tickets together.

Being suspected of an offence for merely using split tickets is out of order solely on the basis of a lack of scan.

 

[Hadders]

You can buy from https://tickets.railforums.co.uk as they aren’t part of trainline database

I expect there will be data sharing arrangements with all ticket retailers. Trainline is the largest retailer and so this is why they often get mentioned.