Winding back the railway clock

[Shimbleshanks]

Back in the 1970s, on long distance routes we had Mark 2 carriages with generally comfy seats, often windows you could open, a decent size guards van for bikes and large luggage. Sure, services weren't generally as fast and frequent as they are now (at least in theory) but generally only by an hour or less. We also had overnight trains that could be handy if you needed to get somewhere before 9am, though a bit of an ordeal.
On secondary routes we had the Modernisation Plan DMUs, which were noisy and not too comfortable but great fun if you could bag the seats behind the driver's cab and look out the front.
Maybe my perceptions have been warped by time, but I have the impression that really massive delays and foul-ups didn't happen as frequently as they do today.

Personally, I'd go back to those times like a shot, if I had a time-machine. (It would need to be a time-machine that only worked on railways though. I wouldn't want to do without modern medicine or even the Internet...)
What are other peoples' opinions?

 

[The exile]

Back in the 1970s, on long distance routes we had Mark 2 carriages with generally comfy seats, often windows you could open, a decent size guards van for bikes and large luggage. Sure, services weren't generally as fast and frequent as they are now (at least in theory) but generally only by an hour or less. We also had overnight trains that could be handy if you needed to get somewhere before 9am, though a bit of an ordeal.
On secondary routes we had the Modernisation Plan DMUs, which were noisy and not too comfortable but great fun if you could bag the seats behind the driver's cab and look out the front.
Maybe my perceptions have been warped by time, but I have the impression that really massive delays and foul-ups didn't happen as frequently as they do today.

Personally, I'd go back to those like a shot, if I had a time-machine. (It would need to be a time-machine that only worked on railways though. I wouldn't want to do without modern medicine or even the Internet...)
What are other peoples' opinions?

One perception I would suggest has been warped by time is that of Mk2s - particularly whatever variety used to work the Glasgow / Edinburgh - WCML “cross-country” trains in the late 70s and early 80s. Poor ventilation meaning that the entire carriage might as well have been a smoker - the only train journeys I have ever consistently been glad to get over and done with.
Leave the smoking ban (and modern-day catering options - remember MaxPax “coffee”?) outside the Time Machine and I’m with you!
Having said that, I doubt my current commute would be practical with 1970s frequencies.

 

[Taunton]

Maybe my perceptions have been warped by time, but I have the impression that really massive delays and foul-ups didn't happen as frequently as they do today.

It seems a significant part of this is the time now taken to respond to incidents, especially where they occur outside 0900-1700 Monday to Friday, which seems to point to some management inertia. As this has happened when communications anywhere are now instant it's double-surprising. There are regular statements that "lessons will be learned", but then the accountants squelch any prospect of that.

 

[The exile]

It seems a significant part of this is the time now taken to respond to incidents, especially where they occur outside 0900-1700 Monday to Friday, which seems to point to some management inertia. As this has happened when communications anywhere are now instant it's double-surprising. There are regular statements that "lessons will be learned", but then the accountants squelch any prospect of that.

Several factors
1. A lot of the flexibility has been rationalised out. Even if there were still spare locos sitting around in wayside goods sidings, try coupling them to the latest variety of multiple unit…
2. Much lower tolerance of risk (not commenting!)
3. More intensive use of resources means things escalate far quicker
4. Better communications all round (like this forum) means we all know about everything instantly.

But everything back then wasn’t rosy. Apparently as a 5-ish year old I caused quite a lot of amusement heading south on an ECML express by loudly musing “I wonder where we’ll break down this time!”

(For the record, the locations I can remember 50 years later were Grantshouse, Tweedmouth, York, Huntingdon and Stevenage! I do not recall where we ground to a halt on that occasion - if at all)

 

[sh24]

I can recall plenty of disruption and issues in the 80's and early 90's. The recovery from an incident might have been faster but it's been a long long time since I had a train fail on me, whereas in the later BR era it was not uncommon for something to give up the ghost.

The huge increase in aircon passenger accommodation is welcome, and toilet provision is much less grim too.

 

[Snow1964]

The huge increase in aircon passenger accommodation is welcome, and toilet provision is much less grim too.

Although far too much a/c doesn't work, especially 158s and 166s

Toilets are better, but fewer. A lot of the mk1 and mk2 stock running in 1970s had 2 toilets per 64 seat coach. Some of those are now replaced by 2car DMUs with 1 toilet for 150 people

 

[The exile]

Toilets are better, but fewer. A lot of the mk1 and mk2 stock running in 1970s had 2 toilets per 64 seat coach. Some of those are now replaced by 2car DMUs with 1 toilet for 150 people

They are certainly fewer - I’m less convinced about better (except of course for anyone at risk of getting sprayed by dump-through, where there is no question that the modern state is an improvement, and anyone who needs an accessible toilet). Other than that, give me Mk 1 toilets any day.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

One perception I would suggest has been warped by time is that of Mk2s - particularly whatever variety used to work the Glasgow / Edinburgh - WCML “cross-country” trains in the late 70s and early 80s. Poor ventilation meaning that the entire carriage might as well have been a smoker - the only train journeys I have ever consistently been glad to get over and done with.
Leave the smoking ban (and modern-day catering options - remember MaxPax “coffee”?) outside the Time Machine and I’m with you!
Having said that, I doubt my current commute would be practical with 1970s frequencies.

Yes, smoking's an interesting one. Back in the day when it was still allowed, I'd happily sit getting gently kippered in the smoker if it meant getting a window seat, and I remember long coach and frequent bus journeys inhaling clouds of secondhand smoke. But nowadays, I get twitchy even if someone lights up within 50 feet of me.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jul 2026 ==

They are certainly fewer - I’m less convinced about better (except of course for anyone at risk of getting sprayed by dump-through, where there is no question that the modern state is an improvement, and anyone who needs an accessible toilet). Other than that, give me Mk 1 toilets any day.

Yes, I liked the Mark 1 toilets too - very spacious, as I remember. And those little yellow-green cakes of soap - an extraordinary aroma. I wonder if anyone still makes them?

 

[mike57]

For me the sweet spot would be early 80s, after the HST's were introduced. Journey times were improved, I commuted weekly from Yorkshire to London at that time, and the improvements were significant, with the fastest journeys being barely slower than today once the Selby diversion opened.

Proper catering, I usually went home on a Thursday evening, and would get a decent meal (and get a first class seat with a second class ticket legitimately). The guards van on the HSTs were still large enough for bulky luggage, and I used them a couple of times.

Ticketing was much simpler. Reliability seemed to be on a par with today, over 4 years I had a few bad journeys but no worse or better. The other advantage of the HSTs was you usually got to the other end, just late as they topped out at about 80 on one engine.

It was still British Rail, and although no doubt there were problems behind the scenes as a passenger if things did go wrong most of the staff would do their best to get you to where you needed to be. The current silo mentaility is to me one of the biggest problems.

The only really bad bit were the suburban trains out of London, mainly south, no toilets in a lot of cases and were feeling very tired and dated. Away from London you would usually get a mix of Mk1 & 2 stock or an elderly 1st gen DMU (Pre Pacer). Trains were longer, although only hourly Transpennine trains would usually be 6 or 7 carriages, and incidents of severe overcrowding/people being left behind outside the London rush hours seemed to be lower. Toilets were rarely completely out of use, but I realise this was because they dumped onto the track, so less to go wrong.

Finally we still had a sleeper service on the ECML, which I would use occasionally from York to Aberdeen.

 

[Johnnie2Sheds]

How spoilt we were in the 1970s with a dozen mkll a/b and a diesel. The last rancid Voyager ride I enjoyed was York - Tamworth stood with a load of others in the stinking sarcophagus like vestibule with no air con. A uncivilised travesty of a train whose only redeeming feature is that it is speedy and the torture is soon over. I hope I'm here to see them turned into bean cans.

 

[The exile]

Yes, I liked the Mark 1 toilets too - very spacious, as I remember. And those little yellow-green cakes of soap - an extraordinary aroma. I wonder if anyone still makes them?

Palmolive still exists, I think. Took me years to realise that it was “Palm-olive” not “Pal-molive”!
Can just about remember when it was Bronco loo roll as well (non-absorbent but very redistributive!)

 

[SuspectUsual]

I look back on the early 80s, when I first began to travel a lot by train on my own or with my mates, and if I strip out the non-crank elements on the whole what we have now is clearly better in my mind

Obviously when I factor in the crank elements the early 80s wins hands down

But what was undoubtedly a lot worse then was the provision of information when things went wrong, if you were at an unmanned station. I can remember this happening three times - once in Norfolk, once in the East Midlands, and once in Scotland - stood on the platform waiting for my train and.......nothing. Obviously no PIS or help points then....

 

[Dodrzet]

Back then weren't all seats window seats? None of this 'one bodyshell fits all' malarky.

 

[The exile]

Back then weren't all seats window seats? None of this 'one bodyshell fits all' malarky.

The ones adjacent to the corridor weren’t! (Regardless of whether it was an open or corridor coach)

 

[sh24]

Compartment stock had 1 or 2 middle seats. Don't have to suffer those any more, even if a compo was amazing when it was just you or your travelling companions.

 

[thesignalman]

Yes, I liked the Mark 1 toilets too - very spacious, as I remember. And those little yellow-green cakes of soap - an extraordinary aroma. I wonder if anyone still makes them?

They were made by Palmolive:

British Rail InterCity - 'Palmolive' soap tablets, c1980

Strange what you pick up and keep! These little blocks of Palmolive soap were once so common on British Rail trains as in the lavatories of most Mk1 and Mk2 carriages there was rarely a soap dispenser but these small blocks of soap embossed with BR and in this case InterCity Sleepers.

www.flickr.com

or later Buttermilk was used, which you can clearly still get!

Buttermilk Tablet Hand Soap - Small

Buttermilk hand soap is based on a traditional formula that is kind and gentle to the skin. Two sizes of tablet are available – standard and guest size. Buttermilk guest soap tablet is a small tablet for individual personal use. It is ideal for use in the home, office washrooms, caravans, portable s

www.intacare.co.uk

John

 

[yorksrob]

It would be nice to go back to a time when one wouldn't need a new mortgage to get an open return.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

The only reason for going back to the 70's and 80's would be to relive the loco-bashing. Almost everything else is way better on today's railway. Stations are in much better condition, staff are much more customer friendly, information provision is incomparable (it barely existed back then) and on-train environments are more comfortable. And even if loco-haulage made a comeback it's unlikely the rolling stock would be basher-friendly. I say leave the past in the past, if you really want to relive it in some way visit a heritage railway.

 

[The exile]

on-train environments are more comfortable.

With the exception of air conditioning (when working), I humbly beg to differ. About the only seats I can think of that were worse than the current IET offering (on GWR at least) were the bus seats on pacers. Happy to agree on the provision of real-time information, but even that has its down-side, permitting changes of timetable at the drop of a hat, to the extent that it is now your fault if you haven't stayed up until 22.00 on the evening before you're getting up early to catch the first train to check that it hasn't suddenly disappeared with no redress because it was "removed from the timetable" (not cancelled) at 21.59. Staff may well be more customer friendly ( I would say the jury's out on that one) - if you can find them, but for so many things you're now forced to be interrogated by some inane chatbot instead of popping into the ticket office and getting it sorted there and then. Also can't argue with the improvement in the condition of many stations - particularly the larger ones - but the destaffing (partial or full) of many smaller ones means that that nicely refurbished waiting room is more than likely to be locked when you actually want it.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

With the exception of air conditioning (when working), I humbly beg to differ. About the only seats I can think of that were worse than the current IET offering (on GWR at least) were the bus seats on pacers. Happy to agree on the provision of real-time information, but even that has its down-side, permitting changes of timetable at the drop of a hat, to the extent that it is now your fault if you haven't stayed up until 22.00 on the evening before you're getting up early to catch the first train to check that it hasn't suddenly disappeared with no redress because it was "removed from the timetable" (not cancelled) at 21.59. Staff may well be more customer friendly ( I would say the jury's out on that one) - if you can find them, but for so many things you're now forced to be interrogated by some inane chatbot instead of popping into the ticket office and getting it sorted there and then. Also can't argue with the improvement in the condition of many stations - particularly the larger ones - but the destaffing (partial or full) of many smaller ones means that that nicely refurbished waiting room is more than likely to be locked when you actually want it.

There's little doubt that the IET seats were poorly specified but plenty of post-BR seats are better than any of the original second class offerings in mk2/3/4. However many people seem to think train seats should be for lounging in when they are specifically designed for upright seating. When occupied that way, subject to spacing allowing sufficient leg-room, Pendolinos, Voyagers and Desiros are all better than any BR seat. And I speak as someone who is tall for my generation.

The overnight cancellation issue is nothing to do with information provision, it's about TOCs gaming the compensation system for passengers. Blame spineless ministers for that one! I have no doubt that generally speaking staff are much better now; I experienced old-time BR attitudes as a passenger and they were shocking.

 

[The exile]

The overnight cancellation issue is nothing to do with information provision, it's about TOCs gaming the compensation system for passengers. Blame spineless ministers for that one! I have no doubt that generally speaking staff are much better now; I experienced old-time BR attitudes as a passenger and they were shocking.

It has everything to do with information provision (although as much of it internally as externally) - in the same way as the flexibility that mobile phones have brought to be able to communicate private changes of plan makes it far harder to rely on arrangements that you make with people actually being stuck to and not changed at the last minute on a whim (which may be very convenient for one side of an arrangement, but leaves the other scrabbling around to stop the collapsing house of cards of their arrangements.
I too experienced old-time BR-attitudes as a passenger and found some of them shocking, but plenty of them helpful and, usually, considerate in an "old-school" sort of way. I find the attitudes of the "system" now considerably more shocking (not to mention plenty of [usually agency] staff, and frequently staff who clearly want to be helpful but are bound by the dictates of "policy". Don't get me started on "help points" where the person on the other end has probably never been anywhere near the station you're contacting them from and is trained only to parrot set phrases - most of which can be paraphrased as "go take a running jump".

 

[Bevan Price]

Some things are better - some things are worse - sometimes much worse.
I had two spells of commuting into Manchester. (Late 50s/early 60s, then early 70s) - and NEVER had a train cancelled due to shotage of train crew. Very occasional train missing due to failure.

Despite its problems, steam power would usually get you to your destination although sometimes late if there was a load of yuck-quality coal -- total failures were very rare. With diesels, failures - althoiugh not frequent - usually meant waiting for a replacement loco or unit,

As the average size of people has slowly increased, seat space per passenger slowly decreased. For example, Pendolino & Voyager seats are typically al least 2 inches narrower than seats in Mark 1 or early Mark 2 seats.

The fare system was much simpler, and you were more likely to have connections held if your train was a few minutes late.

Yes - safety has improved, trains are (theoretically) more frequent - but to me, the overall impression is that I wish we were back in the pre-1980s....

 

[WesternLancer]

Palmolive still exists, I think. Took me years to realise that it was “Palm-olive” not “Pal-molive”!
Can just about remember when it was Bronco loo roll as well (non-absorbent but very redistributive!)

Hull street life museum shop window display

 

[yorksrob]

I would very much like to go on holiday to the 1980's and travel around, particularly on the mk1's again.

 

[Sun Chariot]

I would very much like to go on holiday to the 1980's and travel around, particularly on the mk1's again.

You'll be wanting that huge back-achingly heavy British Rail timetable, printed and bound.
I still shudder at how my brother heaved it around, for every of our summer jaunts on Rail Rovers.

Oh - and my 2026 self would tell my 1986 self, that scoffing a Kendal Mint Cake for our breakfasts, was not actually healthy at all!

 

[Shimbleshanks]

Hull street life museum shop window display

That Izal toilet paper was pretty bracing too, wasn't it?

 

[yorksrob]

You'll be wanting that huge back-achingly heavy British Rail timetable, printed and bound.
I still shudder at how my brother heaved it around, for every of our summer jaunts on Rail Rovers.

Oh - and my 2026 self would tell my 1986 self, that scoffing a Kendal Mint Cake for our breakfasts, was not actually healthy at all!

As long as it came with the fold away BR map !

Since I was still a meat eater in the 1980's, I could be tempted by the Travellers Fare microwave beefburger (with mustard and tomato sauce).

 

[WesternLancer]

That Izal toilet paper was pretty bracing too, wasn't it?

That’s a diplomatic description!

 

[Sun Chariot]

As long as it came with the fold away BR map !

That alone justified the need for bay-of-four seats around the table, in a TSO. Map opened out, timetable well-thumbed and consulted.
Not forgetting my trusty Sectional Maps of Britain's Railways (Ian Allan) and black felt tip pen, for marking off our routes.

I still recall a smeary-awfulness of 'Bronco' toilet-paper - and the often-wet floor in the Mk1 and Mk2 p/v lavatories. Those lavatories in corridor stock, were cavernous.
I also just remember the itching discomfort of coach seating filled with horse-hair. I am certain it was a Mk1 SK / CK and it was during family's Merrymaker trip.

For me, the "lost times" are:
1) Railtour photo-stops with en-masse track walking, to get "the shot". 1988 (Ribblehead) and 1992 (Ennis, IRL) were my favourites.
2) Access to station platforms with camera, without being harrassed or accused of being a spy / terrorist / abuser.
3) Access into motive power depots and railway scrapyards (some with pernits, others not), using a dose of courtesy and common sense

 

[Taunton]

At Didcot museum they had out their 1930s GWR excursion stock open saloon, which has spent most of its 80+ year life sat out on open sidings, and was built for the cheapest holiday excursion traffic. Family sat around a table who had just travelled from Reading said wouldn't it be nice if new trains were made like this ...