Why would a cancelled train run ECS (empty coaching stock) instead of remaining at a platform?

[Philvis]

Hi
Yesterday a Northern service from Piccadilly to Stoke and the return were cancelled due to a staffing issue. The train ran as an ECS to Stoke and return. I was wondering why did the train run instead of it just staying at Piccadilly.

Thanks

 

[muz379]

Hi
Yesterday a Northern service from Piccadilly to Stoke and the return were cancelled due to a staffing issue. The train ran as an ECS to Stoke and return. I was wondering why did the train run instead of it just staying at Piccadilly.

Thanks

Probably issues with keeping units at picadilly at the minute because of 2 platforms being blocked by the roof works and this past few weeks they had another one being blocked to electric traction .

 

[Geeves]

It's a similar story at Victoria. ECS to Wigan, Chester and even Leeds is common. That's what happens when you only have one singular siding at a station with 30 trains an hour

 

[Horizon22]

There’s a few reasons potentially.

A) Platform capacity - might not be possible to keep the service there blocking platforms for well over an hour. There may be no available sidings / depot nearby either.

B) The missing staff (presuming a guard) might be able to sourced at destination to start the service from there.

 

[The exile]

There’s a few reasons potentially.

A) Platform capacity - might not be possible to keep the service there blocking platforms for well over an hour. There may be no available sidings / depot nearby either.

B) The missing staff (presuming a guard) might be able to sourced at destination to start the service from there.

Could it also be that it’s the driver’s only route retention run….

 

[zwk500]

Could it also be that it’s the driver’s only route retention run….

Or that the driver is relieved for their break/end of shift at the far end.

 

[Killingworth]

I'd been wondering the same question on Saturday when a phantom service 2S90 clearly ran between Piccadilly and Sheffield on Saturday morning as it was seen in Sheffield. Both it and return service 2S71 show as cancelled due to an issue with the train crew.

The restricted platform availability is compounding the operational crewing difficulties.

Yesterday, Sunday, no service at all on some routes. On Piccadilly - Sheffield 5 of the hourly return services were cancelled. After news reports of big pay awards to resolve industrial relations disputes passengers are wondering what's going on. Inadequate notice is being given of cancellations and "short notice change to the timetable" is an incomprehensible explanation

Readers of this forum probably do understand that the historic railway operated very few Sunday services. Some companies have done better than others in providing 7 days a week timetables and crewing them. Northern in the North West has not. Hopefully this issue can soon be resolved because it's wrecking many people's travel plans.

Many examples could be quoted. I met a family who'd planned a trip to Manchester travelling from Bamford. Train cancelled so instead of parking drove back over to Dore and caught an EMR 6 car 170 fast - standing room only. How they got back heaven only knows!

 

[800001]

Hi
Yesterday a Northern service from Piccadilly to Stoke and the return were cancelled due to a staffing issue. The train ran as an ECS to Stoke and return. I was wondering why did the train run instead of it just staying at Piccadilly.

Thanks

Train needs to vacate platform to allow another service to use platform.

If it remained and another unit came in on top, the other unit may not depart before the unit that ran ecs was next due to leave Piccadilly.

 

[Spartacus]

This does seem a bit stranger than normal, with it running back ECS with the same driver. All i can guess is that Northern hoped to resource a guard at Stoke but weren't able to, and the platform at Picc was needed.

 

[Crossover]

This does seem a bit stranger than normal, with it running back ECS with the same driver. All i can guess is that Northern hoped to resource a guard at Stoke but weren't able to, and the platform at Picc was needed.

Is there actually a crew depot at Stoke for this to be a viable option?

I suppose it could have been spun at Macclesfield but probably by the time the planners have faffed around with changing the schedule/checking for conflicts, it is "cheaper" to just send it on its booked working

I would wager platform space at Picc being the reason for the service running ECS as it did

 

[godfreycomplex]

Is there actually a crew depot at Stoke for this to be a viable option?

I suppose it could have been spun at Macclesfield but probably by the time the planners have faffed around with changing the schedule/checking for conflicts, it is "cheaper" to just send it on its booked working

I would wager platform space at Picc being the reason for the service running ECS as it did

Almost certainly platform space at Picc, Stoke is 100% Picc work at Northern

 

[Horizon22]

Almost certainly platform space at Picc, Stoke is 100% Picc work at Northern

Platform space for the train to be held there for its normal turnaround time + journey to stoke + back? Doubtful without multiple platform alterations and congestion.

 

[Starmill]

Platform space for the train to be held there for its normal turnaround time + journey to stoke + back? Doubtful without multiple platform alterations and congestion.

Normally it's probably awkward but achievable.

With two platforms blocked and out of use it may tip the balance to being too difficult.

 

[Killingworth]

This does seem a bit stranger than normal, with it running back ECS with the same driver. All i can guess is that Northern hoped to resource a guard at Stoke but weren't able to, and the platform at Picc was needed.

Similar with train run ECS to Sheffield.

2 platforms out of use at Piccadilly. Shortage of a conductor but driver ready. Clear platform and use normal path. No conductors will have route knowledge in Sheffield so back to Piccadilly as ECS. A lot of dead mileage. You can understand why some might ask why that if they can run up to 12 car trains in regular service in the London area as DOO why not in the north? (I wouldn't want to be stranded 2 miles into wet and deep Totley Tunnel with an incapacitated driver in charge!)

 

[GordonT]

Can't speak for the particular example which prompted the thread but it's an occasional feature for ScotRail to operate an ECS journey and cancel the passenger carrying journey booked for the same unit to the same destination in the immediate wake of its late-running inbound journey in order to get it back on diagram for subsequent journeys. As an alternative to "stop skipping" it appears to wind prospective passengers up marginally less and is less disruptive than running the set late for multiple subsequent journeys and losing paths and connections in consequence and winding up a much larger amount of passengers in the process.

 

[185]

Ahem. Perhaps the performance penalty for running a train with no guard ECS is 50%. Just a thought...

 

[Spartacus]

Ahem. Perhaps the performance penalty for running a train with no guard ECS is 50%. Just a thought...

 

[godfreycomplex]

Platform space for the train to be held there for its normal turnaround time + journey to stoke + back? Doubtful without multiple platform alterations and congestion.

As in “almost certainly platform space at Picc (or lack thereof) was the reason for the move”

 

[IanXC]

Can't speak for the particular example which prompted the thread but it's an occasional feature for ScotRail to operate an ECS journey and cancel the passenger carrying journey booked for the same unit to the same destination in the immediate wake of its late-running inbound journey in order to get it back on diagram for subsequent journeys. As an alternative to "stop skipping" it appears to wind prospective passengers up marginally less and is less disruptive than running the set late for multiple subsequent journeys and losing paths and connections in consequence and winding up a much larger amount of passengers in the process.

The follows the amount of political heat ScotRail were under for cancelling stops on late running trains....

 

[Statto]

This is very common on AWC, if a train has been cancelled trains because of staff shortage, the train then runs ECS to where it was supposed to terminate as a passenger service.