Why not cross Bradford as a conciliatory prize ?

[tbtc]

An excellent question.

The elimination of lay-overs creates not only a central concourse but also many journey opportunities. Merseyrail has stated that the Link was not just an operating economy and shopping area access but created many new passenger flows that they never thought would exist, even though 2/3 of Link trains terminate at Central.

Bradfordians and neighbours would really miss the timetable footnote, "Passengers make their own way between Forster Square and Interchange Stations."

I do agree with Bald Rick that the time is not right for this as too much has now been put in the way. That may not always be so.

I think that by "conciliatory prize", the term "consolation prize" was intended.

WAO

Many journey opportunities?

I'm still waiting to hear about them

You could run some services from Skipton/ Ilkley through to Manchester, I suppose, but that'd also require wiring up the whole Calder Valley (or accepting replacing Skipton/ Ilkley's EMUs with DMUs?), as well as presumably reducing the number of services from Leeds to Halifax/ Hebden Bridge etc?

You could run Leeds to Skipton/ Ilkley via Bradford, I guess, but that'd be a huge time penalty (compared to running through Kirkstall)

Any Leeds - Halifax services diverted via Shipley (instead of Pudsey) would take longer than they currently do

None of these services would actually benefit Bradford either - there's not going to be any additional services from Bradford to anywhere that couldn't be provided now (e.g. you could run Bradford - Carlisle trains now if you really wanted)

Essentially you're wanting to spend best part of a bullion pounds so that the people of Bradford no longer have to see a footnote in a printed timetable?

Presumably to eliminate the dead end and reduce journey times by getting rid of the current Interchange time penalty

Time penalty?

A city centre station in a place the size of Bradford is probably going to mean a dwell of around three minutes, and that's generally the dwell at Interchange

The current Calder Valley services are faster going via Pudsey (and reversing at Interchange) than they would going north via Shipley - that dog leg would be the real time penalty

 

[zwk500]

Strange logic. If private businesses haven't put money into something for 100 years then it cant be needed. However it would be sensible to provide a rapid transit link despite despite no-one putting any money into that for 100 years.

I may have not articulated my point clearly. I was saying that IF you wanted to connect Bradford FS and Bradford Interchange, then a rapid transit link that also connects to the suburbs would be more sensible than a dedicated heavy rail line. I didn't mean that would it would automatically be worth doing.

Just like HS2 then. Best cancel it then

They just have cancelled half of it....

I dont know. This is a speculation thread. You haven't the faintest idea either but use that to make a definite conclusion

How do you know I don't have any idea what I'm on about? I didn't presume your level of knowledge in asking that question. You were welcome to come back and challenge me. Instead you've been snide and dismissive.

Presumably to eliminate the dead end and reduce journey times by getting rid of the current Interchange time penalty

You would actively be making journeys worse for the average punter to Leeds from Halifax/Brighouse/Hebden Bridge by extending the journey time going via Shipley or forcing a change at Bradford to a train via New Pudsey.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Could a 'Dotto' type train not be operated between Interchange and Forster Square stations, at least during the summer months?

 

[WAO]

Many journey opportunities?

I'm still waiting to hear about them

Airedale and Wharfedale to Calderdale.

The Calder Valley is seen even in the North as a prime wiring candidate.

It would need to be done first, as I agree that a full Bradford Crossrail is too big an ask immediately.

WAO

 

[fishwomp]

Many journey opportunities?

I'm still waiting to hear about them

You could run some services from Skipton/ Ilkley through to Manchester, I suppose, but that'd also require wiring up the whole Calder Valley (or accepting replacing Skipton/ Ilkley's EMUs with DMUs?), as well as presumably reducing the number of services from Leeds to Halifax/ Hebden Bridge etc?

I don't think you need to do any change to services - the connectivity is being able to swap platforms to the next train, not 10 mins walk first.

None of these services would actually benefit Bradford either - there's not going to be any additional services from Bradford to anywhere that couldn't be provided now (e.g. you could run Bradford - Carlisle trains now if you really wanted)

Essentially you're wanting to spend best part of a bullion pounds so that the people of Bradford no longer have to see a footnote in a printed timetable?

Well - it's not about the people of Bradford - but Halifax, Calder Valley and its improved connections to Keighley, Skipton, Ilkley etc. Properly connecting the region. I think there's value in that - although most people gravitate to Leeds, the change in connections over time could develop employment opportunity in each direction. It doesn't help Huddersfield-Keighley as the existing Leeds route would be quicker.

A city centre station in a place the size of Bradford is probably going to mean a dwell of around three minutes, and that's generally the dwell at Interchange

The current Calder Valley services are faster going via Pudsey (and reversing at Interchange) than they would going north via Shipley - that dog leg would be the real time penalty

I think there is a lot to be had from sorting out line speed - at least in the leaving direction, assuming the need for safe speed down the incline prevents a higher speed profile. That to me would be first step - before the wires arrive, if only they'd get cracking!

 

[Bald Rick]

(1) no buildings harmed - there is a bouncy castle that needs to be moved, but it's not listed and can be reinflated elsewhere.
(2) no buildings harmed
(3) any worse than a typical Bradford road project?

Tunneling from Man Pic to Marsden isn't remotely cheap, but there have been plenty of people in the forum that'd rather do that than re-quadruple to Guide Bridge and reopen Micklehurst Loop, in spite of the obvious cost benefit. The majority in the forum seem to circle the wagons around HS2/HS2 East in spite of the cost.. but heck anyone suggest something that costs the same as a bit of road building, and it's blasphemy - or worse - crayons!!

Here's what I mean - there's a tight curve at one point, road takes the rail route, rail takes the road route for most - so there are no buildings., just car parks and bouncy castles.

View attachment 106215

Sure, it's not going to happen - I absolutely agree there. It's not going to happen because the votes in Bradford aren't important enough to either party. Every investment decision is either value for money, or it's political, sometimes both.

This is why using crayons is dangerous.

Firstly, that alignment isn’t possible for track at the South end - trains wouldn’t be able to get round that corner. Nor could they get round the edge of the Broadway centre onto Church Bank.

Secondly, and most significantly, it harms lots of buildings. Harming a building is not the same as demolishing it. That line removes the only vehicular access to a huge swathe of property. In such circumstances you are obliged to buy it.

People often forget that the process of building a line needs much, much more land than the end result.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2021 ==

Which should be relieved by there being fewer trains run

Should be is not good enough. You have to be certain.

 

[tbtc]

Airedale and Wharfedale to Calderdale.

Well - it's not about the people of Bradford - but Halifax, Calder Valley and its improved connections to Keighley, Skipton, Ilkley etc. Properly connecting the region. I think there's value in that - although most people gravitate to Leeds, the change in connections over time could develop employment opportunity in each direction

Demand for "non-Leeds" journeys on West Yorkshire trains has been so poor in the past that Wakefield to Huddersfield and Huddersfield to Bradford have both had just an hourly Pacer/Sprinter for years (with Bradford to Wakefield being only the handful of irregular London trains per day) - no great surprise that Wakefield to Huddersfield is the first thing that Northern give up on when lacking drivers/stock

If demand between the second/ third/ fourth biggest places in West Yorkshire is that low then I can't see much demand for journeys like Keighley to Halifax

(and, as before, any Keighley to Halifax train is presumably taking up the path that a Leeds to Halifax train would have?)

I don't think you need to do any change to services - the connectivity is being able to swap platforms to the next train, not 10 mins walk first

So a billion quid just to help the Bradford - Leeds passengers (since that's the only place where passengers might have a choice of the two Bradford stations)?

Given that there's a five minute time penalty for going via Shipley and that the Shipley services are only half as frequent, there are very limited times per hour when it'd be better to go to Forster Square rather than the fifteen minute frequency from the Interchange - e.g. looking at tomorrow, there's an xx:56 from Interchange to Leeds, then a wait for the xx:06 from Interchange which gets into Leeds only one minute after the xx:00 from Forster Square - so there's only a very brief window when I'd consider going to Forster Square if I was heading to Leeds, unless I was already on that side of the city centre - but I guess that the plans for a "Crossrail" would mean closing both existing stations and forcing people to head to a station closer to Broadway, which would be more inconvenient for some

And, when you say that we don't need to change any services, that suggests that you'd keep the existing reversal for Leeds - Pudsey - Interchange - Calder Valley services?

I'm just confused as to how a "cross rail" wouldn't need services to change (or any journeys to be slower) whilst also providing all of these regional connections?

 

[fishwomp]

[..]

So a billion quid just to help the Bradford - Leeds passengers (since that's the only place where passengers might have a choice of the two Bradford stations)?

Given that there's a five minute time penalty for going via Shipley and that the Shipley services are only half as frequent, there are very limited times per hour when it'd be better to go to Forster Square rather than the fifteen minute frequency from the Interchange - e.g. looking at tomorrow, there's an xx:56 from Interchange to Leeds, then a wait for the xx:06 from Interchange which gets into Leeds only one minute after the xx:00 from Forster Square - so there's only a very brief window when I'd consider going to Forster Square if I was heading to Leeds, unless I was already on that side of the city centre - but I guess that the plans for a "Crossrail" would mean closing both existing stations and forcing people to head to a station closer to Broadway, which would be more inconvenient for some

And, when you say that we don't need to change any services, that suggests that you'd keep the existing reversal for Leeds - Pudsey - Interchange - Calder Valley services?

I'm just confused as to how a "cross rail" wouldn't need services to change (or any journeys to be slower) whilst also providing all of these regional connections?

Platforms. It's how you go from one train to another at the same station. Train from Halifax arrives, you get off, and - you get on the other train going to Keighley. Importantly, that train you got off, it carries about it's good work of getting to Leeds on the existing faster route. That train you "get on" has started here - it's a bit like being at Forster Square, but you don't need to walk the 10 mins between.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Platforms. It's how you go from one train to another at the same station. Train from Halifax arrives, you get off, and - you get on the other train going to Keighley. Importantly, that train you got off, it carries about it's good work of getting to Leeds on the existing faster route. That train you "get on" has started here - it's a bit like being at Forster Square, but you don't need to walk the 10 mins between.

So rather than "getting rid of buffer stops" you're simply moving the buffer stops closer together. So instead of Halifax to Keighley passengers crossing the city centre, they just cross a concourse.

I'm not even sure that's an improvement on its own terms, let alone worth spending towards a billion pounds on.

 

[fishwomp]

Firstly, that alignment isn’t possible for track at the South end - trains wouldn’t be able to get round that corner. Nor could they get round the edge of the Broadway centre onto Church Bank.

The red arc I've drawn above is taken from tracing the curve up at Hammerton St and placing it on top (same scale.., rotated to its tightest part). It's not quite a fit - but within a whisker. There are tighter curves on the network than this..

Secondly, and most significantly, it harms lots of buildings. Harming a building is not the same as demolishing it. That line removes the only vehicular access to a huge swathe of property. In such circumstances you are obliged to buy it.

Looks like very few buildings have vehicular access on that route (Streetview) - the buildings are mostly in pedestrianized area already.

At worst that's one building getting knocked - this is not the most expensive area in the country and the buildings are not tall so not many businesses or people in them.

However - here's a business plan.. buy the buildings, build CrossBradRail, and when that causes the economic boom sell for profit! (this _is_ the speculative ideas forum.., property speculation is allowed)

 

[WAO]

Demand for "non-Leeds" journeys on West Yorkshire trains has been so poor in the past that Wakefield to Huddersfield and Huddersfield to Bradford have both had just an hourly Pacer/Sprinter for years (with Bradford to Wakefield being only the handful of irregular London trains per day) - no great surprise that Wakefield to Huddersfield is the first thing that Northern give up on when lacking drivers/stock

If demand between the second/ third/ fourth biggest places in West Yorkshire is that low then I can't see much demand for journeys like Keighley to Halifax

I agree. Let's cut all this out and spend the money in Lancashire, where it will be appreciated.

A business case for spending £78M on 6.5 route miles of wiring to connect Wigan to Bolton proved positive!

Roses are red...

WAO

 

[Neptune]

(1) no buildings harmed - there is a bouncy castle that needs to be moved, but it's not listed and can be reinflated elsewhere.
(2) no buildings harmed
(3) any worse than a typical Bradford road project?

Tunneling from Man Pic to Marsden isn't remotely cheap, but there have been plenty of people in the forum that'd rather do that than re-quadruple to Guide Bridge and reopen Micklehurst Loop, in spite of the obvious cost benefit. The majority in the forum seem to circle the wagons around HS2/HS2 East in spite of the cost.. but heck anyone suggest something that costs the same as a bit of road building, and it's blasphemy - or worse - crayons!!

Here's what I mean - there's a tight curve at one point, road takes the rail route, rail takes the road route for most - so there are no buildings., just car parks and bouncy castles.

View attachment 106215

Sure, it's not going to happen - I absolutely agree there. It's not going to happen because the votes in Bradford aren't important enough to either party. Every investment decision is either value for money, or it's political, sometimes both.

Just wondering if you know the terrain in Bradford? For instance the gradient to get over Hamme Strasse (A6181) would have to be severe and how do you get into Bradford Interchange over Bridge Street which is higher than the Interchange at the point of contact. Maybe use a bouncy castle?

That curve will slow things to a crawl too.

Will the ‘benefits’ be worth the extortionate cost just to cure buffer stop allergy?

 

[Bald Rick]

It's not quite a fit - but within a whisker.

Not quite isn’t good enough! “Sorry, but this train is delayed because it doesn’t quite fit through this bridge”

Looks like very few buildings have vehicular access on that route (Streetview) - the buildings are mostly in pedestrianized area already.

The whole of the Forster Sq shopping Park.... plus anything with a frontage on to the streets you propose to run a railway along.

 

[tbtc]

Platforms. It's how you go from one train to another at the same station. Train from Halifax arrives, you get off, and - you get on the other train going to Keighley. Importantly, that train you got off, it carries about it's good work of getting to Leeds on the existing faster route. That train you "get on" has started here - it's a bit like being at Forster Square, but you don't need to walk the 10 mins between.

So rather than "getting rid of buffer stops" you're simply moving the buffer stops closer together. So instead of Halifax to Keighley passengers crossing the city centre, they just cross a concourse.

I'm not even sure that's an improvement on its own terms, let alone worth spending towards a billion pounds on.

I'm even more confused now!

I thought that the idea was for a two track city centre station that turned everything into a through train so that we could finally provide through trains from Ilkley to Halifax (as well as cutting the services from the Calder Valley into Leeds and sending them via a longer route)?

And we could sell off the two current (larger) sites for this smaller station (since we'd only need something like a Glasgow Queen Street Low Level or City Thameslink or any of the intermediate Crossrail stations once they open)?

But now the plan is to have two large stations "buffer to buffer" so that there was the same capacity as each currently has for terminating services (e.g. six per hour from Shipley that terminate at Forster Square), i.e. taking up an equivalent space to the combined footprint of the two current stations, but in a tunnel?

So all of the expense and disruption but without permitting any new links?

I agree. Let's cut all this out and spend the money in Lancashire, where it will be appreciated.

A business case for spending £78M on 6.5 route miles of wiring to connect Wigan to Bolton proved positive!

Roses are red...

WAO

You know we're going to be spending tens of millions of pounds on electrifying a second route from Leeds to Bradford (i.e. the Interchange route, given that the Forster Square line was wired many years ago)?

And that you've got a railway professional on this thread estimating a cross-Bradford line at best part of a billion pounds for just half a mile?

But I suspect that you know that and you're just resorting to the politics of envy now, because there's no other justification for spaffing all this money on Bradford

 

[Ken H]

I may have not articulated my point clearly. I was saying that IF you wanted to connect Bradford FS and Bradford Interchange, then a rapid transit link that also connects to the suburbs would be more sensible than a dedicated heavy rail line. I didn't mean that would it would automatically be worth doing.

....

Trolleybuses then

 

[WAO]

I do agree with Bald Rick that the time is not right for this as too much has now been put in the way. That may not always be so.


WAO

The Calder Valley is seen even in the North as a prime wiring candidate.

It would need to be done first, as I agree that a full Bradford Crossrail is too big an ask immediately.

WAO

At the risk of repeating myself, I am repeating myself!

It's just that there are advantages to such a scheme but the present costs undoubtably outweigh them.

Happy August 1!

WAO

 

[matacaster]

Demand for "non-Leeds" journeys on West Yorkshire trains has been so poor in the past that Wakefield to Huddersfield and Huddersfield to Bradford have both had just an hourly Pacer/Sprinter for years (with Bradford to Wakefield being only the handful of irregular London trains per day) - no great surprise that Wakefield to Huddersfield is the first thing that Northern give up on when lacking drivers/stock

If demand between the second/ third/ fourth biggest places in West Yorkshire is that low then I can't see much demand for journeys like Keighley to Halifax

(and, as before, any Keighley to Halifax train is presumably taking up the path that a Leeds to Halifax train would have?)



So a billion quid just to help the Bradford - Leeds passengers (since that's the only place where passengers might have a choice of the two Bradford stations)?

Given that there's a five minute time penalty for going via Shipley and that the Shipley services are only half as frequent, there are very limited times per hour when it'd be better to go to Forster Square rather than the fifteen minute frequency from the Interchange - e.g. looking at tomorrow, there's an xx:56 from Interchange to Leeds, then a wait for the xx:06 from Interchange which gets into Leeds only one minute after the xx:00 from Forster Square - so there's only a very brief window when I'd consider going to Forster Square if I was heading to Leeds, unless I was already on that side of the city centre - but I guess that the plans for a "Crossrail" would mean closing both existing stations and forcing people to head to a station closer to Broadway, which would be more inconvenient for some

And, when you say that we don't need to change any services, that suggests that you'd keep the existing reversal for Leeds - Pudsey - Interchange - Calder Valley services?

I'm just confused as to how a "cross rail" wouldn't need services to change (or any journeys to be slower) whilst also providing all of these regional connections?

If there was a single central Bradford station, where would people park their cars?

 

[BayPaul]

Since there doesn't seem to be a logical reason for a Bradford crossrail, are there any other potential schemes that would make a better conciliation prize for the city, and actually achieve something with clear passenger benefits (speed, capacity, frequency)?

I'm thinking things like electrification, extra capacity at Leeds to allow more frequent services, platform lengthening, perhaps a dynamic loop somewhere on the Calder Valley to allow fast Bradford - Manchester services to overtake stoppers etc.

 

[Glenn1969]

Since there doesn't seem to be a logical reason for a Bradford crossrail, are there any other potential schemes that would make a better conciliation prize for the city, and actually achieve something with clear passenger benefits (speed, capacity, frequency)?

I'm thinking things like electrification, extra capacity at Leeds to allow more frequent services, platform lengthening, perhaps a dynamic loop somewhere on the Calder Valley to allow fast Bradford - Manchester services to overtake stoppers etc.

I think there is a reason for trying to make Interchange a through station (because of the time penalty caused by reversal) but don't know how practical it is. I agree about linespeed needing raising too

 

[zwk500]

I think there is a reason for trying to make Interchange a through station (because of the time penalty caused by reversal) but don't know how practical it is. I agree about linespeed needing raising too

It's been explained that the time penalty for a reversal is much smaller than the time penalty of running the trains as through services via Shipley. If you wanted to make interchange a through station why does nobody suggest building a new station further south on the old curve at Hall Lane? You save the time penalty, the alignment is already there and you only have to demolish one business (yes, I know there's far, far more to it than that, I'm just throwing the comparison out there).

I'm thinking things like electrification, extra capacity at Leeds to allow more frequent services, platform lengthening, perhaps a dynamic loop somewhere on the Calder Valley to allow fast Bradford - Manchester services to overtake stoppers etc.

Electrification is the best thing for this area, given steep hills and frequent stops.

 

[Neptune]

Since there doesn't seem to be a logical reason for a Bradford crossrail, are there any other potential schemes that would make a better conciliation prize for the city, and actually achieve something with clear passenger benefits (speed, capacity, frequency)?

I'm thinking things like electrification, extra capacity at Leeds to allow more frequent services, platform lengthening, perhaps a dynamic loop somewhere on the Calder Valley to allow fast Bradford - Manchester services to overtake stoppers etc.

Does Bradford actually need even more services? It already has:-

6tph to/from Leeds
2tph to/from Skipton
2tph to/from Ilkley
2tph to/from Manchester (1tph extends to Chester)
1tph to/from Hull
1tph to/from Blackpool
1tph to/from Huddersfield
6tpd to/from London

The biggest benefits would be to improve the ambience at both stations, especially Forster Square which is a complete dump. Interchange still feels like it did when built although the concourse has been modernised.

Electrification of the full Calder Valley would be a nice to have although it would be good to at least have it electrified to Huddersfield to link with TRU.

The main flows into and out of Bradford are Leeds (6tph), Shipley (6tph) and Halifax (5tph) which is more than adequate.

Capacity at Leeds is being improved and has been for some time now (platform 0 etc). There are other works in the pipeline across the rest of the station.

I think there is a reason for trying to make Interchange a through station (because of the time penalty caused by reversal) but don't know how practical it is. I agree about linespeed needing raising too

Any time penalty caused by reversal is less than running across Bradford with the necessary speed restrictions and steep gradients required plus running to Bradford via a longer more congested route. Why are people so averse to buffer stops? They are not the devils work.

There always seems to be this suggestion that there is a huge market from Manchester - Skipton/Ilkley too. Is there? More than Leeds? Last time this came up about Bradford Crossrail none of the pro camp could come up with a solution to Airedale/Wharfedale line capacity issues that this would cause without spending billions on track and signalling for an at best negligible benefit.

 

[30907]

I think there is a reason for trying to make Interchange a through station (because of the time penalty caused by reversal) but don't know how practical it is.

Can only be one on the existing site with a new-build going North on viaduct (the Cross-city idea) with a considerable time penalty for Calderdale-Leeds.
A new-build from the city end of Interchange towards Laisterdyke would be even worse.
The alternative is a new station on Wakefield Road about half-a-mile out. In which case you would opt to use the old "avoiding line" formation rather than build a new curve near Mill Lane Jn. Much easier gradients but totally useless for the city (or as an interchange!).

Back to consolation prizes:
a half-hourly EMU to Victoria (and beyond) calling at as few stops as possible/as Metro will tolerate.
perhaps half-hourly to Huddersfield, but it's not a competitive route.
a Spen Valley tram-train?

 

[WAO]

I'm thinking things like electrification, extra capacity at Leeds to allow more frequent services, platform lengthening, perhaps a dynamic loop somewhere on the Calder Valley to allow fast Bradford - Manchester services to overtake stoppers etc.

Great ideas.

WAO

 

[Glenn1969]

Can only be one on the existing site with a new-build going North on viaduct (the Cross-city idea) with a considerable time penalty for Calderdale-Leeds.
A new-build from the city end of Interchange towards Laisterdyke would be even worse.
The alternative is a new station on Wakefield Road about half-a-mile out. In which case you would opt to use the old "avoiding line" formation rather than build a new curve near Mill Lane Jn. Much easier gradients but totally useless for the city (or as an interchange!).

Back to consolation prizes:
a half-hourly EMU to Victoria (and beyond) calling at as few stops as possible/as Metro will tolerate.
perhaps half-hourly to Huddersfield, but it's not a competitive route.
a Spen Valley tram-train?

The original 2015 franchise plan was 3 (or 4) tph Bradford - Manchester. I think the size of the market means this should still be an aspiration but the Calder Valley route is more in need of infrastructure investment than the route via Huddersfield because of current linespeed and no wires as well as the dead end nature of Interchange station. The WYCA 2040 mass transit plans include possible Spen Valley tram trains and similar for North Halifax and Queensbury. We will see how much of it actually gets built

 

[YorksLad12]

If there was a single central Bradford station, where would people park their cars?

Where they park now, and walk slightly further?

Electrification is the best thing for this area, given steep hills and frequent stops.

In train terms, yes.

Realistically, the best you could hope for would be for Interchange to be extended and rebuilt on its old site across Bridge Street. That is achieveable, because it was done before (and the Council own the land and buildings there now). My Google Map view is probably out of date, but there seems to be a former building next door to Centenary Court. If the two could be persuaded to swap then Forster Square could be extended back (perhaps with an additional platform).

But there no money or drive for either of those - probably because people would then say "the buffer stops are 400m apart, why not join the two stations together?" and we'd be back where we were. So refurb and electrify are the best and cheapest options for both. I'm sure I looked at plans for Forster Square back in 2015.

 

[zwk500]

In train terms, yes.

Also in passenger terms, and for lineside neighbours - electrics are quicker, quieter, lighter on the rail and more efficient to run. This reduces journey times, emissions at use and noise, whilst giving options for either more services, different stopping patterns or reduction of operating costs meaning less pressure on the public purse (I'd love to say lower fares but I think we all know that won't happen any time soon...).
With Transpennine upgrade doing Huddersfield-Leeds, doing both routes to Bradford would also give good network effects and allow more DMUs to be removed from the middle of urban areas.

Realistically, the best you could hope for would be for Interchange to be extended and rebuilt on its old site across Bridge Street. That is achieveable, because it was done before (and the Council own the land and buildings there now). My Google Map view is probably out of date, but there seems to be a former building next door to Centenary Court. If the two could be persuaded to swap then Forster Square could be extended back (perhaps with an additional platform).

But there no money or drive for either of those - probably because people would then say "the buffer stops are 400m apart, why not join the two stations together?" and we'd be back where we were. So refurb and electrify are the best and cheapest options for both. I'm sure I looked at plans for Forster Square back in 2015.

Does moving the station from one side of the road to the other materially impact the passenger journey experience? Will it make more people use the train for journeys they are either not making or using the car for? Its not like either station is particularly hidden from the town centre.

 

[YorksLad12]

Also in passenger terms, and for lineside neighbours -

That was a dig about "the best thing for Bradford" (I'm from Leeds).

Does moving the station from one side of the road to the other materially impact the passenger journey experience? Will it make more people use the train for journeys they are either not making or using the car for? Its not like either station is particularly hidden from the town centre.

For me, no; but in terms of reducing the transfer time between the two stations, building them back where they were 50-odd years ago is probably the best you could hope for. I would argue that Forster Square is not exactly obvious compared to Interchange, depending on how you approach it.

 

[Neptune]

Moving the Interchange to its original site would be far more than extending the line back a few metres. The original station was much lower than the current station. To create the current station meant levelling the site off (P1&2 were done first and p3&4 were done once the original Exchange closed in 1973).

This means you would have to excavate the land that was filled in in the mid 70’s’ and build a bridge across the railway on Bridge Street. That would cost a substantial amount plus the effects of the prolonged road closures affecting bus and coach services as well as the users of this busy road.

The costs are spiralling and that’s just on this forum. But still it will be ignored because a map is flat so it’s easy to draw a line where you want it to go. I wish people would realise that it’s far more complicated and expensive than that for a less than marginal benefit.

 

[JKF]

Since there doesn't seem to be a logical reason for a Bradford crossrail, are there any other potential schemes that would make a better conciliation prize for the city, and actually achieve something with clear passenger benefits (speed, capacity, frequency)?

I'm thinking things like electrification, extra capacity at Leeds to allow more frequent services, platform lengthening, perhaps a dynamic loop somewhere on the Calder Valley to allow fast Bradford - Manchester services to overtake stoppers etc.

Four-tracking the Aire Valley route might give a bit more speed and capacity, and electrification of the New Pudsey route for a faster climb up from Leeds would save a minute or two. Both quite realistic if unexciting.

Wasn’t there a proposal to re-site Interchange, with the council already owning some land for a possible relocation?

 

[Glenn1969]

Four-tracking the Aire Valley route might give a bit more speed and capacity, and electrification of the New Pudsey route for a faster climb up from Leeds would save a minute or two. Both quite realistic if unexciting.

Wasn’t there a proposal to re-site Interchange, with the council already owning some land for a possible relocation?

that was for the NPR route that is no longer happening. No idea if it is still on the table and the IRP said it was not practical?