• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Why not cross Bradford as a conciliatory prize ?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Neptune

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2018
Messages
2,626
Location
Yorkshire
Four-tracking the Aire Valley route might give a bit more speed and capacity, and electrification of the New Pudsey route for a faster climb up from Leeds would save a minute or two. Both quite realistic if unexciting.
The issue with 4 tracking the Aire Valley is that both Kirkstall Forge and Apperley Bridge have been built over the formation, the latter with some quite substantial engineering to access the car park.

There were plans maybe 20 years ago for loops at Marley near Keighley for freight but this quietly went away.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
18,679
Location
Northampton
For me, no; but in terms of reducing the transfer time between the two stations, building them back where they were 50-odd years ago is probably the best you could hope for.
Again, the question nobody seems to be able to answer: how many people interchange between stations at Bradford? And, more importantly, how many would do so that don't currently if it was easier? Perhaps more pertinently for the various suggestions: 'How much revenue is the railway missing out on because of the lack of interchange?' If you know the railway is missing out on £x a year, then you know what your budget for improvements will be.

For the people who are making the change already, there is no revenue being missed.
For people who would travel via alternative means regardless, there is no revenue being missed.
For the people who travel, but to different destinations or not as far and switching to another option (taxi/bus), there is a fraction fare being missed.
For the people who choose not to travel by rail at all but would if the interchange was easier, there is a full fare being missed.

The price of a Halifax to Shipley anytime return is £6.50. Are you honestly saying that moving the station over the road will facilitate hundreds or thousands more journeys per day to cover some of the cost and stimulate enough economic activity for the tax income to cover the rest?
 

Glenn1969

Established Member
Joined
22 Jan 2019
Messages
1,983
Location
Halifax, Yorks
Again, the question nobody seems to be able to answer: how many people interchange between stations at Bradford? And, more importantly, how many would do so that don't currently if it was easier? Perhaps more pertinently for the various suggestions: 'How much revenue is the railway missing out on because of the lack of interchange?' If you know the railway is missing out on £x a year, then you know what your budget for improvements will be.

For the people who are making the change already, there is no revenue being missed.
For people who would travel via alternative means regardless, there is no revenue being missed.
For the people who travel, but to different destinations or not as far and switching to another option (taxi/bus), there is a fraction fare being missed.
For the people who choose not to travel by rail at all but would if the interchange was easier, there is a full fare being missed.

The price of a Halifax to Shipley anytime return is £6.50. Are you honestly saying that moving the station over the road will facilitate hundreds or thousands more journeys per day to cover some of the cost and stimulate enough economic activity for the tax income to cover the rest?
For me it's not about Interchange between stations. It needs to be a way to reduce journey time between Leeds and Calderdale/Rochdale which are currently amongst the slowest in the North for the distance involved
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
18,679
Location
Northampton
For me it's not about Interchange between stations. It needs to be a way to reduce journey time between Leeds and Calderdale/Rochdale which are currently amongst the slowest in the North for the distance involved
Why does doing anything to Bradford Interchange help Leeds to Calderdale journeys?
 

Glenn1969

Established Member
Joined
22 Jan 2019
Messages
1,983
Location
Halifax, Yorks
Why does doing anything to Bradford Interchange help Leeds to Calderdale journeys

Building a through station on the right alignment could reduce journey times by up to 5 minutes by eliminating the reverse and reducing the dwell unless I have missed something
 

JKF

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2019
Messages
1,337
Building a through station on the right alignment could reduce journey times by up to 5 minutes by eliminating the reverse and reducing the dwell unless I have missed something
But building a through station based on lines into and out of the current station would site it much further from the city centre, away from the bus interchange and a further walk to Forster Sq. Unless you want to do a lot of heavy engineering to build a new alignment crossing the heart of the city on an east-west axis, which would cost £silly.
 

Neptune

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2018
Messages
2,626
Location
Yorkshire
Building a through station on the right alignment could reduce journey times by up to 5 minutes by eliminating the reverse and reducing the dwell unless I have missed something
You’ve missed many of the comments on here saying why it would take longer via Shipley. Heading 10 miles NW out of Leeds on an already congested route will not save time. Nor will the gradients and constrained route through Bradford speed anything up.

Building anything elsewhere means avoiding the centre of Bradford altogether.

Are buffer stops that bad?
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
35,973
Building a through station on the right alignment could reduce journey times by up to 5 minutes by eliminating the reverse and reducing the dwell unless I have missed something

If you want a 5 minute journey time reduction, there will be better value ways of delivering that than spending a couple of billion quid digging up Bradford.
 

JKF

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2019
Messages
1,337
If you want a 5 minute journey time reduction, there will be better value ways of delivering that than spending a couple of billion quid digging up Bradford.
Kirkstall Forge to New Pudsey tunnel?
 

Halifaxlad

Established Member
Joined
5 Apr 2018
Messages
1,793
Location
The White Rose County
Just to point out in my initial suggestion

it didn't propose on connecting Bradford Interchange to Forster Square!

is not proposing on sending Calder Valley services through Shipley to mitigate a reversal at the interchange!

It was about how since NPR is now to approach Bradford from the East on the existing line and that London services operated by LNER are to remain, routing them through Bradford.

Its also a different route that would avoid the need to demolish/relocate the Bradford Combined Court Centre and would only require partially demolition of the Broadway Shopping Centre that could then potentially be rebuilt beneath it.

Ideally if the line to Otley was also reinstated and a new line constructed Eastwards from it towards the line to Harrogate, then the LNER Harrogate services could be routed via Bradford.
 

matacaster

On Moderation
Joined
19 Jan 2013
Messages
1,646
Location
Huddersfield
Where they park now, and walk slightly further?


In train terms, yes.

Realistically, the best you could hope for would be for Interchange to be extended and rebuilt on its old site across Bridge Street. That is achieveable, because it was done before (and the Council own the land and buildings there now). My Google Map view is probably out of date, but there seems to be a former building next door to Centenary Court. If the two could be persuaded to swap then Forster Square could be extended back (perhaps with an additional platform).

But there no money or drive for either of those - probably because people would then say "the buffer stops are 400m apart, why not join the two stations together?" and we'd be back where we were. So refurb and electrify are the best and cheapest options for both. I'm sure I looked at plans for Forster Square back in 2015.


Ah, that's part of the problem. The council are knocking the multi-storey carpark down and parking in Bradford centre is already really poor. Where do would you suggest people park?
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
18,679
Location
Northampton
Just to point out in my initial suggestion

it didn't propose on connecting Bradford Interchange to Forster Square!

is not proposing on sending Calder Valley services through Shipley to mitigate a reversal at the interchange!

It was about how since NPR is now to approach Bradford from the East on the existing line and that London services operated by LNER are to remain, routing them through Bradford.

Its also a different route that would avoid the need to demolish/relocate the Bradford Combined Court Centre and would only require partially demolition of the Broadway Shopping Centre that could then potentially be rebuilt beneath it.

Ideally if the line to Otley was also reinstated and a new line constructed Eastwards from it towards the line to Harrogate, then the LNER Harrogate services could be routed via Bradford.
How does NPR stuff get to the far side of the Pennines if it's been bumped over northwards? And no, Skipton-Colne isn't part of this. You may avoid taking out the Courts but you appear to need to completely remove the industrial/retail park next to Forster Square. That's a fair number of jobs that will go.
That's before we get to the technical feasibility of the gradients that would be required to get your link clear of the roads below, given Bradford's topography.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
35,973
Just to point out in my initial suggestion

it didn't propose on connecting Bradford Interchange to Forster Square!

is not proposing on sending Calder Valley services through Shipley to mitigate a reversal at the interchange!

It was about how since NPR is now to approach Bradford from the East on the existing line and that London services operated by LNER are to remain, routing them through Bradford.

Its also a different route that would avoid the need to demolish/relocate the Bradford Combined Court Centre and would only require partially demolition of the Broadway Shopping Centre that could then potentially be rebuilt beneath it.

Ideally if the line to Otley was also reinstated and a new line constructed Eastwards from it towards the line to Harrogate, then the LNER Harrogate services could be routed via Bradford.

The high level issue is:

An NPR route via Bradford’s is not being taken forward because the benefits it would bring to the region did not outweigh the multi billion price tag.

What you seem to be proposing is something that delivers substantially less benefit, particularly to Bradford, but would cause Bradfordians 5-10 years of disruption and still cost multi billions.
 

fishwomp

Established Member
Joined
5 Jan 2020
Messages
1,364
Location
milton keynes
If you want a 5 minute journey time reduction, there will be better value ways of delivering that than spending a couple of billion quid digging up Bradford.
What - it's doubled in the space of a week!? It was one billion last time I read this thread. We're boiling the frogs in crayon juice!
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
35,973
What - it's doubled in the space of a week!? It was one billion last time I read this thread. We're boiling the frogs in crayon juice!

To be fair to @tbtc (who quoted a billion), he was no doubt having a guess. That’s the thing with estimates - they are only a guess until you do some investigation work on them. Work that is more than using your finger in ‘markup’ across a googlemaps screenshot on an iphone.

My guess is multi billions; having in my earlier days estimated the cost of underground railways with large stations. And also, by pure good fortune, seen the estimated costs of underground stations in Bradford.
 

Ken H

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2018
Messages
6,718
Location
N Yorks
To be fair to @tbtc (who quoted a billion), he was no doubt having a guess. That’s the thing with estimates - they are only a guess until you do some investigation work on them. Work that is more than using your finger in ‘markup’ across a googlemaps screenshot on an iphone.

My guess is multi billions; having in my earlier days estimated the cost of underground railways with large stations. And also, by pure good fortune, seen the estimated costs of underground stations in Bradford.
what is the geology of central Bradford? Tunnelling in hard rock is difficult and expensive. London, with its blue clay is easier.
 

Glenn1969

Established Member
Joined
22 Jan 2019
Messages
1,983
Location
Halifax, Yorks
The high level issue is:

An NPR route via Bradford’s is not being taken forward because the benefits it would bring to the region did not outweigh the multi billion price tag.

What you seem to be proposing is something that delivers substantially less benefit, particularly to Bradford, but would cause Bradfordians 5-10 years of disruption and still cost multi billions.
TfN met last week and agreed to write to Shapps to ask for a meeting to indentify alternative funding sources to allow it to be taken forward. They also mentioned Sheffield-Leeds and Leamside. That was the first I knew of a Newcastle NPR plan in particular. I think the benefits it brings to my corridor are substantial especially if they go ahead with plans for Calder Valley services to share the new station which would mean closure of the current Interchange station
 

YorksLad12

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2020
Messages
2,727
Location
Leeds
Moving the Interchange to its original site would be far more than extending the line back a few metres. The original station was much lower than the current station. To create the current station meant levelling the site off (P1&2 were done first and p3&4 were done once the original Exchange closed in 1973).
This I did not know. I thought the levels were much closer either side of Bridge Street. Much more work involved then...

The price of a Halifax to Shipley anytime return is £6.50. Are you honestly saying that moving the station over the road will facilitate hundreds or thousands more journeys per day to cover some of the cost and stimulate enough economic activity for the tax income to cover the rest?
No, I was making the point that for those who say that people don't like to transfer, the best you could hope for was to have the two station entrances where they were rather than where they are.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
35,973
TfN met last week and agreed to write to Shapps to ask for a meeting to indentify alternative funding sources to allow it to be taken forward.

They might as well ask Father Christmas. Where are they going to find £4bn?
 

WAO

Established Member
Joined
10 Mar 2019
Messages
1,243
I found an 1845 silver 3d down the back of ours, which they can have.

Bradford does have a good route to Manchester already, via the L&Y, if some fast paths could be contrived. NPR surely doesn't need closely spaced main stations.

Bald Rick's point about potential disruption in Bradford is well made; if you haven't been there recently, look at the centre on Streetview and you'll see that it is much improved. It will be generations probably before major changes would take place.

Perhaps if Bradfordians behaved better so the Courts became redundant, all shopped on line so that the shopping centre closed and all worked at home so the nice new building at Forster Square fell vacant...

WAO
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
21,996
Location
Airedale
Just to point out in my initial suggestion

it didn't propose on connecting Bradford Interchange to Forster Square! Is not proposing on sending Calder Valley services through Shipley to mitigate a reversal at the interchange!
No, but then it misses out on the most unseful cross-Bradford flow.
It was about ....London services operated by LNER....routing them through Bradford.

...would only require partially demolition of the Broadway Shopping Centre that could then potentially be rebuilt beneath it.
Every drawing I've seen shows much the same route squeezing between it and the (listed) Old Post Office and Cathedral Gate.
Ideally if the line to Otley was also reinstated and a new line constructed Eastwards from it towards the line to Harrogate, then the LNER Harrogate services could be routed via Bradford.
Extending them to Skipton wouldn't be a bad idea, but Leeds-Harrogate via Shipley, and Otley?????
 

matacaster

On Moderation
Joined
19 Jan 2013
Messages
1,646
Location
Huddersfield
One source says 700m.
The problem is now that several large modern buildings now sit on the direct route.
Had the City Councillors wished they could have protected or acquired the route as conditions of the developments.
As the map shows, they love roads.
There's much criticism of the Crossrail idea, basically that Bradford and its satellites aren't important (like Leeds is) and can't generate traffic - not the view of the LYR or the MR or of most other ambitious towns and cities of its size.

Haven't an answer.

WAO
Bradford used to be known as the 'woolopolis'. Virtually all wool was bought and sold here. There were 300 mill chimneys when I was a lad. Listers mill was the biggest silk mill in the world. It was a rich town with some very rich people. Mill owners would often live in morecambe to get away from the smoke and commute in. There was much wool traffic, general goods, two big mail order companies (Grattan and empire stores) who both sent a lot of traffic by rail. They even had iron, steel and coal before my time. All that has gone. It is now more like a much bigger version of Dewsbury, low wage, low educational attainment, poor prospects, not somewhere companies or people are keen to relocate to. Most rail traffic now is people commuting to decent jobs in Leeds or Manchester. Ask yourself a simple question "what is XX city famous for?" ..... Leeds finance and shopping.....Manchester insurance, finance, shopping .... Bradford ??????
 
Last edited:

WAO

Established Member
Joined
10 Mar 2019
Messages
1,243
You could make the same cogent points about Liverpool, having lost its shipping and docks, 2/3 of its economy. Fortunately its 1970's leaders backed Merseyrail, a similar central link (also L&Y) to Bradford's Crossrail, giving a unified U-Bahn albeit only serving a third of the city but providing a sub-regional network of West Lancashire and the Wirral. It has the edge over a tram system in that it can reach further, quicker, although it can't match the comprehensive access.

I am sure that Merseyrail saved Liverpool and Merseyside from complete economic disaster through the '80's and '90's by keeping easy access to the centre for work and shopping from the Maghulls, Birkdales and West Kirkbys.

The Bradford Council leader Susan Hinchcliffe rightly says that Bradford is Britain's 7th largest city and deserves better transport. It certainly deserves better leaders as their past decisions have made such a Crossrail etc almost impossible.

WAO
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
18,679
Location
Northampton
You could make the same cogent points about Liverpool, having lost its shipping and docks, 2/3 of its economy. Fortunately its 1970's leaders backed Merseyrail, a similar central link (also L&Y) to Bradford's Crossrail, giving a unified U-Bahn albeit only serving a third of the city but providing a sub-regional network of West Lancashire and the Wirral. It has the edge over a tram system in that it can reach further, quicker, although it can't match the comprehensive access.

I am sure that Merseyrail saved Liverpool and Merseyside from complete economic disaster through the '80's and '90's by keeping easy access to the centre for work and shopping from the Maghulls, Birkdales and West Kirkbys.

The Bradford Council leader Susan Hinchcliffe rightly says that Bradford is Britain's 7th largest city and deserves better transport. It certainly deserves better leaders as their past decisions have made such a Crossrail etc almost impossible.

WAO
It's worth pointing out that Merseyrail was about much more than linking separate termini. It was the creation of a proper metro-type network, as well as creating another fixed crossing of the River Mersey. Bradford City Centre may be bad to get across, but it isn't a 1km wide river. Bradford's metro trains will always be linked in with the Leeds and other Yorkshire services, so it's difficult to see anywhere you could create strong boundaries as Merseyrail has at Chester, Kirkby, Ormskirk etc.

Can somebody please explain, without reference to any new line, what public transport needs are currently not being met properly that involve journeys to, from or through Bradford? I still think we are very much in 'how do I justify my railway' territory, and perhaps a better understanding of the transport flows would help.
 

Neptune

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2018
Messages
2,626
Location
Yorkshire
The Bradford Council leader Susan Hinchcliffe rightly says that Bradford is Britain's 7th largest city and deserves better transport. It certainly deserves better leaders as their past decisions have made such a Crossrail etc almost impossible.
Bradford Council is inept. They’d rather spend millions on a pointless and fruitless city of culture bid than spend it where it needs to go (housing, education, crime reduction etc…).

They can’t complain about lack of funding when the funds they control are totally wasted on city centre vanity projects.

It's worth pointing out that Merseyrail was about much more than linking separate termini. It was the creation of a proper metro-type network, as well as creating another fixed crossing of the River Mersey. Bradford City Centre may be bad to get across, but it isn't a 1km wide river. Bradford's metro trains will always be linked in with the Leeds and other Yorkshire services, so it's difficult to see anywhere you could create strong boundaries as Merseyrail has at Chester, Kirkby, Ormskirk etc.
100% agree.
Can somebody please explain, without reference to any new line, what public transport needs are currently not being met properly that involve journeys to, from or through Bradford? I still think we are very much in 'how do I justify my railway' territory, and perhaps a better understanding of the transport flows would help.
The city centre is full of buses linking all the suburbs on a regular basis from what I can see so no issue there.

The train service as pointed out many times is fine with the main stations it links to having a more than regular service.
 

WAO

Established Member
Joined
10 Mar 2019
Messages
1,243
It's worth pointing out that Merseyrail was about much more than linking separate termini. It was the creation of a proper metro-type network, as well as creating another fixed crossing of the River Mersey.
By rail?

If you are all happy on the buses...

WAO
 

Ken H

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2018
Messages
6,718
Location
N Yorks
It's worth pointing out that Merseyrail was about much more than linking separate termini. It was the creation of a proper metro-type network, as well as creating another fixed crossing of the River Mersey. Bradford City Centre may be bad to get across, but it isn't a 1km wide river. Bradford's metro trains will always be linked in with the Leeds and other Yorkshire services, so it's difficult to see anywhere you could create strong boundaries as Merseyrail has at Chester, Kirkby, Ormskirk etc.

Can somebody please explain, without reference to any new line, what public transport needs are currently not being met properly that involve journeys to, from or through Bradford? I still think we are very much in 'how do I justify my railway' territory, and perhaps a better understanding of the transport flows would help.
Quite
Airedale and Wharfedale to the North East, the Humber, London or Manchester - you go by excellent electric train to Leeds and change.
Even to places like Hebden Bridge or Leeds you would go via Leeds.
And there are Keighley - Halifx/Hebden bridge buses for the small amount of traffic between Airedale and Calderdale
And from Airedale, if the walk across Bradford is too far for you, then there the the frequent Keighley-Bradford shuttle that takes you to Interchange.
 

Neptune

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2018
Messages
2,626
Location
Yorkshire
By rail?

If you are all happy on the buses...

WAO
But what additional rail routes could you add? The buses connect the areas without rail and in fact compete with rail in some areas.

This idea of crossing Bradford and comparing it to Merseyrail is very odd. Two totally different cities with very different suburban networks. Merseyrail is self contained, routes around Bradford especially to the west are mainly inter-regional. Diverting Manchester & Blackpool services via Shipley would take longer than the current route via Pudsey with a reversal at BDI.

Why do people not consider anything other than negligible benefits when it comes to spending money into the billions.
 

WAO

Established Member
Joined
10 Mar 2019
Messages
1,243
My post #76 answers your second point (again).

Liverpool also has wonderful buses, easier geography and better roads.

WAO
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top