Why not cross Bradford as a conciliatory prize ?

[Halifaxlad]

Since Bradford isn't to get a brand new rail line, how about finally crossing the city as a consileration prize ?

Instead of the previously suggested ways of crossing Bradford, it could be a North West to North East chord with a station above the back of the Broadway Shopping centre.



With future provision for a chord onto the Calder Valley line using some of the old avoiding line.

Some demolition neccesary but most of it on a new viaduct over the Forster Square retail park.

 

[matacaster]

In principal, connecting the two stations and having a single central one is a good idea (it was in 1911 too).

Broadway shopping centre is an eyesore because it is completely out of keeping with buildings in the vicinity, but likely can't knock it down. If your plan is to build a station above Broadway shopping centre that would imply a pretty steep incline and it would need to start ascending along canal road. Also supporting such a station would require very robust foundations - where is the Bradford Beck in relation to your station. If your line and station is behind Broadway, I would have thought it's too small for a station.

 

[A0]

Since Bradford isn't to get a brand new rail line, how about finally crossing the city as a consileration prize ?

Instead of the previously suggested ways of crossing Bradford, it could be a North West to North East chord with a station above the back of the Broadway Shopping centre.

View attachment 106087

With future provision for a chord onto the Calder Valley line using some of the old avoiding line.

Some demolition neccesary but most of it on a new viaduct over the Forster Square retail park.

I think unless the local council are prepared to put their hands in their pocket and fund a wider re-development of the centre of the city, the answer is no.

If it could be accommodated as part of a wider redevelopment of the city centre, then fair enough - but it's not the responsibility of the DfT to fund that.

 

[Roast Veg]

This (rightly) ought to end up as part of the WYCA mass transit, which is getting extra funding off of the IRP.

 

[Bald Rick]

What is the benefit?

 

[Roast Veg]

What is the benefit?

As a heavy rail proposal? None that I can see, but that's why you lead the question.

As mass transit, WYCA appear to want the cross-Bradford connection from the get-go (phasing on pdf page 25) for Leeds (pdf page 17) and Dewsbury (pdf page 19) routes, then later out towards the north for Otley and the Airport (pdf page 23).

 

[tbtc]

Electrification to Bradford Interchange IS the consolation prize though

Remember just a week or two ago, when we thought that we were getting the Eastern Leg of HS2... but then that was going to be cancelled, with the consolation prize that Yorkshire would at least get a regional link with a high speed Sheffield - Leeds alignment instead... then that was forgotten about and Yorkshire's consolation prize became focussed entirely in just Leeds and Bradford (I'm not against some kind of tram system in Leeds or the electrification of the line from Leeds to Bradford Interchange - both have their merits, but Bradford is at least getting some investment as part of these plans

I'm not sure what a Leeds - Pudsey - Forster Square route would really achieve - are there additional paths at Leeds for services? Would Leeds - Pudsey - Bradford - Shipley (and beyond) services be instead of the existing Leeds - Shiipley - Bradford services? You're still spreading the Bradford passengers between two city centre stations (whereas at least the crayonista Crossrail would ensure that every Leeds service would serve each Bradford station)

There kind of "Ilkley to Manchester" journeys that get suggested on Crossrail threads wouldn't be possible with this plan either

Sorry, but this just feels like "please spend some money on my city, regardless of whether there's any benefit or not"

 

[d9009alycidon]

No really a new idea, a proposed link line appears on the RCH Junction Diagram of the area in 1914 RCH Bradford

 

[matacaster]

Electrification to Bradford Interchange IS the consolation prize though

Remember just a week or two ago, when we thought that we were getting the Eastern Leg of HS2... but then that was going to be cancelled, with the consolation prize that Yorkshire would at least get a regional link with a high speed Sheffield - Leeds alignment instead... then that was forgotten about and Yorkshire's consolation prize became focussed entirely in just Leeds and Bradford (I'm not against some kind of tram system in Leeds or the electrification of the line from Leeds to Bradford Interchange - both have their merits, but Bradford is at least getting some investment as part of these plans

I'm not sure what a Leeds - Pudsey - Forster Square route would really achieve - are there additional paths at Leeds for services? Would Leeds - Pudsey - Bradford - Shipley (and beyond) services be instead of the existing Leeds - Shiipley - Bradford services? You're still spreading the Bradford passengers between two city centre stations (whereas at least the crayonista Crossrail would ensure that every Leeds service would serve each Bradford station)

There kind of "Ilkley to Manchester" journeys that get suggested on Crossrail threads wouldn't be possible with this plan either

Sorry, but this just feels like "please spend some money on my city, regardless of whether there's any benefit or not"

The only real benefits I can see via (and calling at) joined up Bradford are direct trains from Ilkley to Manchester / leeds, S&C / Airedale to manchester / leeds. (and vice versa). All would involve using diesel trains or bimodes.

All above nice to have, but cost makes above irrational in my view.

 

[30907]

So a local service from Keighley to New Pudsey is a consolation prize for a fast service from Bradford to Manchester and beyond? Please could we at least have one to Halifax?
No - build it if you must (I don't see the point myself) but don't blame it on the loss of NPR.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It seems to me that one of the big drivers in support of this idea is "reversal anxiety" at Interchange. There isn't huge demand for travel from destinations either side of Bradford. There is some for sure, but not enough to justify spending billions on a heavy-rail link. Calder Valley services reversing at BDI costs a few minutes compared to a regular station stop- sending those services via Shipley would cost an extra few minutes of travel time, so eats up the saving you've made by avoiding reversal. You also then arrive at the Whitehall side of Leeds station which is more congested- particularly awkward for the Blackpool to York train which needs to access the central through platforms.
Then there's the question of how you serve the line through New Pudsey- if the Calder Valley services switch to running via Shipley, presumably you also extend the present-day Ilkley and Skipton to Bradford trains to Leeds via Pudsey. One possible benefit could be that the current Leeds to Forster Square trains are no longer needed, with that role being filled by the diverted Calder Valley services. But that means diesels under wires for the foreseeable future.

 

[JKF]

Consolidating services into one station would be a nice idea for making new connections available, this could still mean services reverse to keep established service patterns. Doing so might free up some land at Interchange (or even FS) which could be sold off for development, though being Bradford this wouldn’t raise much!

The time to have provided this link was when half the city centre was bulldozed ahead of the new shopping centre about a decade ago, at least some provision could have been made within the masterplanning for the site to accommodate a link in future. That this opportunity wasn’t taken then to me suggests it never will happen.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Consolidating services into one station would be a nice idea for making new connections available, this could still mean services reverse to keep established service patterns. Doing so might free up some land at Interchange (or even FS) which could be sold off for development, though being Bradford this wouldn’t raise much!

The time to have provided this link was when half the city centre was bulldozed ahead of the new shopping centre about a decade ago, at least some provision could have been made within the masterplanning for the site to accommodate a link in future. That this opportunity wasn’t taken then to me suggests it never will happen.

As I said, there's a relatively limited market for cross-Bradford travel. In one direction, this market used to be well served by the FreeCityBus, but this appears to no longer run. Bringing this back, even duplicating it with a loop in the opposite direction, would provide all the connectivity benefits of a rail link for a tiny fraction of the cost.

 

[Grumpy]

The time to have provided this link was when half the city centre was bulldozed ahead of the new shopping centre about a decade ago, at least some provision could have been made within the master planning for the site to accommodate a link in future. That this opportunity wasn’t taken then to me suggests it never will happen.

Spot on

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Nov 2021 ==

As I said, there's a relatively limited market for cross-Bradford travel.

And your evidence for this is?
Take a drive Canal Road- Shipley Airedale road-Wakefield road/Manchester road. Dual carriageway, absolutely crammed most of the day. Stay in the outside lane and you will realise with largely through traffic

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Spot on

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Nov 2021 ==


And your evidence for this is?
Take a drive Canal Road- Shipley Airedale road-Wakefield road/Manchester road. Dual carriageway, absolutely crammed most of the day. Stay in the outside lane and you will realise with largely through traffic

Ticket sales for journeys such as Halifax to Ilkley, Baildon to Sowerby Bridge, etc.
Relatively few cross-city buses from districts far out enough that a direct train would be a better option. The only example I can think of is the 622 & 626 routes from Brighouse to Shipley/Eldwick.

Manchester Road is busy with people doing all sorts of journeys, but I'd expect most destinations are in the city centre or the immediate surroundings. If your destination is further out you'd use the outer ring-road surely?

 

[matacaster]

Consolidating services into one station would be a nice idea for making new connections available, this could still mean services reverse to keep established service patterns. Doing so might free up some land at Interchange (or even FS) which could be sold off for development, though being Bradford this wouldn’t raise much!

The time to have provided this link was when half the city centre was bulldozed ahead of the new shopping centre about a decade ago, at least some provision could have been made within the masterplanning for the site to accommodate a link in future. That this opportunity wasn’t taken then to me suggests it never will happen.

The council presided over a big hole on the route of a connection between the two stations for 10 years recently. They decided to let the new ugly shopping centre be built instead of facilitating the link up of the two station. Of course they now express outrage when NPR doesn't go through Bradford!!!

 

[30907]

Take a drive Canal Road- Shipley Airedale road-Wakefield road/Manchester road. Dual carriageway, absolutely crammed most of the day. Stay in the outside lane and you will realise with largely through traffic

That's because it is the only fast road N-S through Bradford (the Ring Road is a joke - allegedly built to serve the mills - and the only other route is slow).

From Shipley (as an example) I would use it plus the M606 or A650 towards Halifax, Wakefield, Sheffield, Manchester and everywhere south; by rail, almost all of those except Halifax and the Calder Valley is faster and easier via Leeds (Manchester is a moot point - cheaper via Interchange, often faster via Leeds).
So, as I previously wrote, a cross-Bradford link is purely local in scope because through rail traffic mostly goes a different way.

 

[Grumpy]

That's because it is the only fast road N-S through Bradford (the Ring Road is a joke - allegedly built to serve the mills - and the only other route is slow).

From Shipley (as an example) I would use it plus the M606 or A650 towards Halifax, Wakefield, Sheffield, Manchester and everywhere south; by rail, almost all of those except Halifax and the Calder Valley is faster and easier via Leeds (Manchester is a moot point - cheaper via Interchange, often faster via Leeds).
So, as I previously wrote, a cross-Bradford link is purely local in scope because through rail traffic mostly goes a different way.

We seem to have the same discussions every month.
A cross-Bradford link (not in the form proposed by the OP) would not be local in scope and would offer vastly more benefits .
To quote a posting by JK on an earlier thread-

"Send the Manchester trains via Shipley triangle, then convert the Pudsey line to tram/light rail as the starting point for the long awaited Leeds Metro. Add stations at Wortley, Armley, Stanningley, Laisterdyke etc.

Starting such a tram system with a heavy rail conversion should be a lot easier/less disruptive than trying to stick tram rails through various bottlenecks/ungrateful nimby areas in Headingley. West Leeds would be grateful for it. "

 

[Bald Rick]

Send the Manchester trains via Shipley triangle

I’d love to see a timetable for that!

 

[6Gman]

Long time since I've visited the Jewel of the North but how far apart are the two stations?

 

[WAO]

One source says 700m.
The problem is now that several large modern buildings now sit on the direct route.
Had the City Councillors wished they could have protected or acquired the route as conditions of the developments.
As the map shows, they love roads.
There's much criticism of the Crossrail idea, basically that Bradford and its satellites aren't important (like Leeds is) and can't generate traffic - not the view of the LYR or the MR or of most other ambitious towns and cities of its size.

Haven't an answer.

WAO

 

[BrianW]

I asked on the 'Integrated Rail Plan' thread (rather brusquely- sorry about that) 'What is Bradford for?' (and similarly Hull).
What would a link Forster Square- Interchange be for? Who would use it and why?
I imagine- open to correction- that an intending passenger from Bradford to Carlisle or Scotland will be happy to travel via Shipley from Forster Square; and a passenger for Manchester to travel from Interchange.
I can see that someone wanting Leeds will have to make a choice, maybe not significant if each were 4-6 tph or better.
I imagine some not starting their journey from central Bradford may take a bus.
Perhaps the Leeds/ West Yorkshire Transport study/ plan may consider the 'bigger picture'- trams/ light rail, tram-train ... and travel into and through Bradford as much as from.

 

[zwk500]

What are the relative levels of the stations (what would the gradient be between the two?)

Either way, I think @BrianW has hit the nail on the head - passengers to/from Bradford will use the most appropriate station from the off, and those interchanging between routes that don't involve Bradford will use Leeds.
If there is a need to connect the stations in Bradford a light rapid transit (tram/trolleybus) would appear to be a more realistic and appropriate solution for the city.

 

[tbtc]

The only real benefits I can see via (and calling at) joined up Bradford are direct trains from Ilkley to Manchester / leeds, S&C / Airedale to manchester / leeds. (and vice versa). All would involve using diesel trains or bimodes.

All above nice to have, but cost makes above irrational in my view.

I was going on the OP's suggestion that seemed to be a chord from the Pudsey direction to the Shipley direction (but not any connection form the Halifax direction?)

Send the Manchester trains via Shipley triangle

That's going to be a couple of extra trains per hour through Shipley and down the Aire Valley (i.e. the half hourly Forster Square stoppers replaced by the two Manchester trains, one Blackpool and one Halifax service) - not going to be easy!

There's much criticism of the Crossrail idea, basically that Bradford and its satellites aren't important (like Leeds is) and can't generate traffic - not the view of the LYR or the MR or of most other ambitious towns and cities of its size

If you were building from scratch then, sure, you'd probably have a through station

But, given that we have the infrastructure that we do, it'd cost many millions of pounds to create a through station, so what benefits would it bring?

Not a huge amount to Bradford, since it already has links to all of the places - there's the benefit of being able to head to one central station and know that all Leeds services will depart from it, but it won't give Bradford any additional services to anywhere that it couldn't already have

Not to Halifax and the wider Calder Valley, since their services to Leeds would now take the slower route via Shipley

Ilkley and Skipon would have some new links in theory, but any service from Ilkley or Skipton to Manchester would presumably have to replace some of the current Leeds services towards Halifax/ Hebden Bridge etc

I suppose you could run the Lancaster/ Carlisle services via Bradford to improve it's connections, but by significantly slowing down the services from Leeds to those places, so what'd be the point?

If you can build it for a fiver then, great, I'd back it. But if it's going to be hundreds of millions of pounds then I'm struggling to see what actual benefits it would bring (compared to, say, wiring up the current line through Bradford Interchange)

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

One possibility would be a new central underground station just off the city centre in the Little Germany area (as proposed by Bradford MB for NPR), but with a tunnel running NW / SE connecting from the north of Forster Square to Hammerton Street on the New Pudsey line. This avoids the complications of tunnelling under the Broadway Shopping Mall, the Bradford Beck issues and the steep gradient and curve out of Interchange. A west facing curve at Hammerton Street and reactivation of the avoiding line would be required for Manchester services. Interchange and Forster Square would close and the land released for redevelopment. You could then even run a 'Circle' service Leeds - New Pudsey - Bradford - Shipley - Leeds and v.v. Ah, my crayon box...

 

[JKF]

What are the relative levels of the stations (what would the gradient be between the two?)

There is quite a difference, which I think has been cited in the past as one of the reasons why it wasn’t practical. Quite a drop down from Interchange to the city centre, and I think the line into the station itself has come down quite a way already.

I think historically this is because the Aire Valley route through to Shipley follows the river valley, whereas the Pudsey route climbs quite a bit out of Leeds and stays higher.

Edit to add OS maps indicate an elevation difference of around 10 metres.

 

[Neptune]

I’d love to see a timetable for that!

We had this last time (about a month ago) and nobody could answer me then how any of it would actually work. It seems train paths can be magicked for free by fairy dust.

 

[tbtc]

You could then even run a 'Circle' service Leeds - New Pudsey - Bradford - Shipley - Leeds and v.v. Ah, my crayon box...

Any Leeds - Bradford - Leeds service is taking up paths that could be used by Halifax trains though, so would the plan be that Halifax sees its services to Leeds cut so that we can run "circulars"?

What are the relative levels of the stations (what would the gradient be between the two?)

There is quite a difference, which I think has been cited in the past as one of the reasons why it wasn’t practical. Quite a drop down from Interchange to the city centre, and I think the line into the station itself has come down quite a way already.

I think historically this is because the Aire Valley route through to Shipley follows the river valley, whereas the Pudsey route climbs quite a bit out of Leeds and stays higher.

Edit to add OS maps indicate an elevation difference of around 10 metres

(Based on a draft route in Runkeeper) Forster Square is about 330ft above sea level, the entrance to Interchange is about 370ft above sea level and New Cross Street (i.e. where a direct chord from Pudsey to Halifax would intersect) is about 490ft above sea level (illustrating the climb required to get out of Interchange, which is why electrification will hopefully help)

New Cross Street is roughly 1.5mi from Forster Square as the crow flies, so you'd need a fairly steep line to get from New Cross Street to underneath Bradford City Centre (and back up again on the other side)

Even the buffer stops at the two stations are less than half a mile apart - the height gap wouldn't be insurmountable if you were building through fresh fields, but to get down underneath the streets would cause problems (even if there were no Beck to worry about - although given the way that it's flooded over the years due to the "bowl" that Bradford sits in, it's obviously a concern)

 

[Bald Rick]

Essentially there’s only two ways of doing a cross Bradford link with heavy rail:

1) at ground level, either keeping the current two stations as is, or building a level station between them and closing both. Clearly this requires lots of demolition, including several listed buildings.

2) in tunnel, which is going to need tunnelled approaches from some distance out due to the topography, and would essential cost billions.

Take your pick.

 

[WAO]

If you were building from scratch then, sure, you'd probably have a through station

But, given that we have the infrastructure that we do, it'd cost many millions of pounds to create a through station, so what benefits would it bring?

Not a huge amount to Bradford, since it already has links to all of the places - there's the benefit of being able to head to one central station and know that all Leeds services will depart from it, but it won't give Bradford any additional services to anywhere that it couldn't already have

Not to Halifax and the wider Calder Valley, since their services to Leeds would now take the slower route via Shipley

Ilkley and Skipon would have some new links in theory, but any service from Ilkley or Skipton to Manchester would presumably have to replace some of the current Leeds services towards Halifax/ Hebden Bridge etc

I suppose you could run the Lancaster/ Carlisle services via Bradford to improve it's connections, but by significantly slowing down the services from Leeds to those places, so what'd be the point?

If you can build it for a fiver then, great, I'd back it. But if it's going to be hundreds of millions of pounds then I'm struggling to see what actual benefits it would bring (compared to, say, wiring up the current line through Bradford Interchange)

Precisely the same arguments applied to Merseyrail, Thameslink, Crossrail etc.

I entirely agree with you about cost etc but it depends on the value you place on the economic life of your community and on heavy rail's potential.

WAO