Why no North bound Flying Scotsman

[Engineer]

Recently travelled to Edinburgh on ECML, with very good mid day service, plus excellent hot meal of bangers and mash. I would have loved a named train, why is the Flying Scotsman only South bound these days. Guess there is a marketing or operational reason. I mourn the dissapearance of the Pines Express named train long ago, I noticed it often showing very late at Reading.

 

[43074]

I think there was a marketing reason behind it. East Coast wanted to give their most prestigious name to their most prestigious service: the 05:40 Edinburgh to Kings Cross which completes the journey in 4 hours so is the fastest on the route.

The 10:00 Kings Cross to Aberdeen departure which traditionally had been 'The Flying Scotsman' fits in to the regular hourly pattern between London and Edinburgh so there is nothing particularly special about it (and I know the above service to Aberdeen is named 'The Northern Lights', although it is not much different to the 14:00 or 16:00 departures from London to Aberdeen)

 

[Condor7]

I must say I cannot understand it either.

The Flying Scotsman name is perhaps one of the strongest brands in the world.
I always thought the 10am departure from Kings Cross was written in stone, as certain as "death and taxes".

 

[tbtc]

If you mean "a non-stop London - Newcastle service", there's much less demand for one single fast service in the evening peak (compared to the number of people who'll want a single fast service arriving in London at a premium time), plus its harder to find space/ time for a "fast" service later in the day.

If you are just meaning "why no named train" then I guess it's because there'd be nothing to differentiate one teatime departure from another (with similar stopping patterns etc). Maybe they only want to use the Flying Scotsman name on a "fast" service (and don't want to devalue it by naming a teatime train that stops at smaller stations)?

 

[E-Rail]

GNER'S blue riband 'Scottish Pullman' had identical journeys north and south. Booked for 3.59 both ways with calls at York and Newcastle only although Berwick was thrown in at some point around 2002 adding about 10 minutes.

Brand wise, I think this sounded a lot more prestigious than 'The Flying Scotsman' anyway, although perhaps that is because it encompassed so well GNER's business travel image.

 

[Muzer]

I thought the 10:00 from King's Cross was the Flying Scotsman! Am I mistaken?

 

[ainsworth74]

I thought the 10:00 from King's Cross was the Flying Scotsman! Am I mistaken?

Historically yes. Currently no and it hasn't been for a while now.

 

[Condor7]

Historically yes. Currently no and it hasn't been for a while now.

Exactly a point I made on a different subject re named/titled trains.
They are so anonymous it is an understandable mistake.
Had it still carried it's thistle headboard etc we would have more idea.
If you are going to make something named or titled it needs more than a bit of paper in a carriage window. They are not even all listed in the National timetables.

 

[fairysdad]

Doesn't East Coast have a 91 liveried as the Flying Scotsman? Seems a bit weird to have done that if they only have one such service in one direction only. I guess the problem with that now is that it's not restricted to being used on the actual Flying Scotsman service.

 

[tbtc]

Doesn't East Coast have a 91 liveried as the Flying Scotsman? Seems a bit weird to have done that if they only have one such service in one direction only. I guess the problem with that now is that it's not restricted to being used on the actual Flying Scotsman service.

The trouble is that the 91 booked to work the fast southbound service doesn't work a "prestigious" northbound service (IIRC?)

 

[ryan125hst]

The Flying Scotsman used to leave London Kings Cross (KGX) at 10:00, but this has not been the case since the Eureka timetable was introduced in May 2011. The Flying Scotsman is now the 05:40 East Coast service to London Kings Cross, calling only at Newcastle and taking exactly four hours.

I was actually looking at some old GNER timetables earlier on today thanks to the Wayback Machine. I noticed that the Flying Scotsman used to depart at 10:00, and the Northern Lights service to Aberdeen used to depart at 10:30.

However, since the introduction of the Eureka timetable, the service pattern for Edinburgh services (from KGX) has been as follows:
Top of the hour: Fast service to Edinburgh: non stop to York, then calling at Darlington, Newcastle, Berwick and Edinburgh (with a few extensions to Aberdeen, and one to Inverness and Glasgow).
Half past the hour: Slower service to Newcastle: calling at Peterborough, Newark Northgate, Doncaster, York, [Northallerton every two hours- I think], Darlington, Durham and Newcastle, with extensions to Edinburgh several times per day, calling at Alnwick.

I'm guessing that as both the Flying Scotsman and the Northern Lights are express services, they were unable to fit them both in the Eureka timetable within the same hour. There would have been too many stops for the Northen Lights to run at half past 10, but they wouldn't want to spoil their clock face timetable. It would have been impossible for them to make it run immediately after the Flying Scotsman as there is a service to Leeds at 10:03, and a stopper to Newark at 10:08.

I'm guessing that this is the reason why the Northern Lights has been moved forward to depart at 10:00, so as to fit in with the clock face timetable, and the Flying Scotsman name is now given to the completely different service.

I think it's a shame that they have broken the tradition (although I can see why they have done it), and also agree that there should be a northbound service.

I hope this long post has been useful: I am typing this on the iPhone app and went to double check East Coast's timetable, and when I went back to the app, I had lost everything, so I have typed most of this out twice!

 

[MCR247]

I'm guessing one of the main reasons (although it isn't a commuter train, the principle is there) is that the morning peak is so much smaller than the evening peak

 

[LE Greys]

The real question is "Why, when it was introduced in 2012, did they not call it the Elizabethan or the Diamond Jubilee?". The Flying Scotsman as a northbound departure has always departed at 10:00 (except when Intercity messed around with it for a while, it even ran to Aberdeen one year) and that's just the way it is. They would either have to go against that tradition or somehow pull all the stops on the 10:00, which seems a bit pointless.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

It was NXEC that removed all of the train names in favour of corporate blandness. Train namings have generally fallen by the wayside since privatisation anyway as stansardisation of train formations made every departure the same as the last, although the highland chieftain and the northern lights retain their names in timetables only. virgin and XC no longer use names since the voyagers were introduced. i think the master cutler and cornish riviera still retain names but named trains are now virtually non existent. The reintroduction of the flying Scotsman name was purely a headline grabber as part of eureka's introduction to highlight the non stop nature of the service.

 

[Muzer]

I personally think it's sad when companies (I'm looking at you, XC!) remove the names of trains already named (by their predecessor).

 

[TEW]

i think the master cutler and cornish riviera still retain names but named trains are now virtually non existent.

FGW are big on named trains and they publicise them quite well.
http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/~/media/PDF/About us/Named Trains V4.ashx

 

[Engineer]

I am sure there is a tourist market for visitors to Scotland using a 1000 or 1030 Flying Scotsman named train from Kings Cross, let alone us nostalgic business travellers. The 39steps films and other TV programmes still publicise the original train in Asia and the USA. Maybe at the next ECML coach rake paint job, we could get another named set.

 

[paulypaul]

It's a great shame that we don't have more train names in the UK

 

[Liam]

The Southbound Flying Scotsman used to start at Glasgow Central. IIRC it was 0900 from Glasgow Central, 1000 from Edinburgh Waverley.

 

[43074]

Whilst on the subject of named trains, First Great Western have produced an excellent booklet giving a brief overview of it's 17 named trains. There's a link to it above.

 

[Hellfire]

FGW still has the Cornish Riveria and the Golden Hind. There used to be the Cornishman and Red Dragon which ran after nationalisation but seem to have disappeared. I think there used to be a named train to Torbay as well

Just seen post above so the names still exist. Pretty sure the Cornishman used to run to the north of England from Cornwall before FGW

 

[Birdbrain]

Top marks to FGW for this. I don't know if it is announced at all stations but definitely at Redruth the auto announcer will announce the train by it's name which is a nice touch.

 

[D1009]

Top marks to FGW for this. I don't know if it is announced at all stations but definitely at Redruth the auto announcer will announce the train by it's name which is a nice touch.

Yes, all trains with names are definitely auto announced as such at all FGW managed stations , and no doubt there will be people who will say this is noise pollution, but I like links to the past.

 

[Zoe]

I personally think it's sad when companies (I'm looking at you, XC!) remove the names of trains already named (by their predecessor).

Didn't Virgin stop using named trains on XC around the time the Voyagers were introduced?

 

[paulypaul]

To give East Midlands Trains credit, they do have:

The Robin Hood.
The Master Cutler.
The South Yorkshireman.
The Sheffield Continental.

All timetabled still.

http://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.uk/PageFiles/1663/Timetable_1_0912_1805.pdf


Having travelled extensively in Germany where a lot of the ICE trains are named, it would be nice if more services in the UK carried names. I'm sure it mght encourage a few more leisure travellers to take to the rails and explore the UK if there were trains with evocative names.

 

[Zoe]

FGW still has the Cornish Riveria and the Golden Hind. There used to be the Cornishman and Red Dragon which ran after nationalisation but seem to have disappeared. I think there used to be a named train to Torbay as well

Just seen post above so the names still exist. Pretty sure the Cornishman used to run to the north of England from Cornwall before FGW

The Cornishman is now used by FGW for a Paddington to Penzance service. The Red Dragon is also still used by FGW as is the Torbay Express.

 

[GatwickDepress]

"The Croydon Stabber" or suchlike is also more memorable and intriguing to the average person than the "1043". A return to some of the named trains of yore surely couldn't cost too much for the TOCs. Something like the "Southern Belle" - only applying it to all Brighton fasts - wouldn't likely benefit the commuter market, but for tourists and visitors to the coast it might.

It's nostalgia here, but these were nice too.

Whimsy: in my ideal world, every single service would be named, with naming duties performed by a crack team of morose cynics.

 

[tbtc]

Didn't Virgin stop using named trains on XC around the time the Voyagers were introduced?

Yes, although they did balance that with putting names on the sides of trains ("Tayside Voyager" etc) - which is of similar enthusiast interest/ irrelevant to most ordinary passengers

 

[paulypaul]

Call me an old romantic, but I prefer the sound of getting say The Cambrian Express to just the boring old 10:23 from Euston.

Wouldn't having more train names help passengers particularly on Advance tickets, identify that they are infact travelling on the train that their ticket is valid on?

 

[Deerfold]

The real question is "Why, when it was introduced in 2012, did they not call it the Elizabethan or the Diamond Jubilee?".

Well, one reason could be that they introduced it in 2011:

http://www.eastcoast.co.uk/22may