Why I think we should leave the EU

[ainsworth74]

I wonder what would happen to the EU if we left? I mean as one of the largest political and economic powers within Europe it would surely hurt them a bit also (though not to the same extent). Also I wonder what it would do politically to the EU, we must act to some extent as a balance to those who want greater integration? Would the EU be able to integrate quicker without the UK holding it back?

 

[edwin_m]

A lot of the problems with the EU are down to rapid expansion to take in countries that weren't economically comparable with the existing members. Hence movements of labour to higher-wage countries probably not being very good for anyone, and the admittance of the Euro of some countries that weren't really ready.

And who was a leading supporter of rapid expansion? UK governments particularly Thatcher's and Major's.

 

[Flamingo]

Well, the EEC (as was) was founded without the UK, and it was a case of the UK asking to join (and blocked by France on the first attempt).

Of course the UK leaving the EU would be a loss to the EU, but the EU could survive without the UK.

 

[ainsworth74]

Of course the UK leaving the EU would be a loss to the EU, but the EU could survive without the UK.

I wasn't suggesting otherwise, we're not that important as much as some may think so I'm just wondering what potential impacts the EU would suffer as surely losing a major economy from it's ranks would do something?

 

[Yew]

There's plenty from the "Left" don't support the idea of the European Union.
The Daily Mail or Ukip don't have a franchise on disliking the EU.

Mainly because the EU is horrifically right wing, Trying to force through Neoliberal Ideology pike the 'Transatlantic Trade and Investment partnership' and Forcibly Imposing Austerity on member states in exchange for money.

 

[WessexEclectic]

Mainly because the EU is horrifically right wing, Trying to force through Neoliberal Ideology pike the 'Transatlantic Trade and Investment partnership' and Forcibly Imposing Austerity on member states in exchange for money.

Have you not heared the phrase "I fought Delors, but Delors won!"?

But then that is how those, such as dear Jaques (and Monnet and Spinneli), have helped shape the intergration of the Union. By appealing at different times to differing intetest groups such free-marketeers, social democrats, environmentalists etc. so that they all see Union as furthering *their* cause and an interest in making it work - in other words, Power Politics.

 

[TheKnightWho]

So I would assume you're all for allowing people to have their own opinions ?

On a different point altogether, how is it that this forum is so full of references to the Daily Mail if everyone claims to detest it so much, do all the quotes come from a friend of a friend who can't be named ?

Criticism is not censorship. That's a pretty easy concept.

People can say what they like. Other people are allowed to say they're full of s***. That's how free speech works.

As my username suggests I live in Switzerland. Switzerland, of course is not in the EU. However if you trade with the EU you still have to obey the EU rules. You just don't get much of a say in them.

Norway has the same problems - do what the EU says or cut off those export markets.

In reality if the purple and yellow clowns got their way nothing much would change except the UK would have even less influence.

This.

Globalisation, for good or ill, is on the global agenda. No country can single-handedly stop that or defend itself against it without crippling its own economy. UKIP might have populism behind them, but in the real world hard truths are still that - truths.

 

[ainsworth74]

Globalisation, for good or ill, is on the global agenda. No country can single-handedly stop that or defend itself against it without crippling its own economy. UKIP might have populism behind them, but in the real world hard truths are still that - truths.

Apart from the mighty workers paradise of North Korea* where Juche delivers plenty to all.



*Please ignore those sacks of food aid coming from abroad.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Apart from the mighty workers paradise of North Korea* where Juche delivers plenty to all.



*Please ignore those sacks of food aid coming from abroad.

All hail the glorious leader! The people are fed so well that they can't even walk without breaking their ankles!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...numerous-meet-people-walkabout-PR-stunts.html

 

[zuriblue]

There's plenty from the "Left" don't support the idea of the European Union.
The Daily Mail or Ukip don't have a franchise on disliking the EU.

Yep. One of the loudest voices against joining the EEC at the time of the first referendum was Tony Benn's.

 

[Flamingo]

Yep. One of the loudest voices against joining the EEC at the time of the first referendum was Tony Benn's.

The biggest opponent to the UK joining was DeGaulle!

 

[St Rollox]

Yep. One of the loudest voices against joining the EEC at the time of the first referendum was Tony Benn's.

In the event of a referendum the Out of Europe brigade might well find support dropping off when a section of the Left present the case for leaving the EU.
Quite a lot of Daily Mail types might quietly enter the polling booth and vote for their own personal financial interests.
Seen it all last September during the Scottish referendum.

 

[yorksrob]

Whatever one thinks of the purple and yellow clowns, it wasn't they who saddled the people of Europe with a disastrous single currency.

Our European leaders should perhaps reflect on the fate of our own Tory party. The most successful political force in Europe since WW2 and impregnable until crashing out of the ERM in 1992. They haven't been able to win an election outright since.

 

[transmanche]

Whatever one thinks of the purple and yellow clowns, it wasn't they who saddled the people of Europe with a disastrous single currency.

Back in 2007 (before the Northern Rock crash) you needed about 70p to buy €1 - the exchange rate had been in that area for a number of years. Now you need about 75p to buy €1. (And that's even after a recent bit of a panic over the Greek election, for most of the past couple of years you needed 80p-85p to buy €1.)

So despite all its issues (and it does have issues) the market thinks more of the euro than it does sterling. What does that say about our currency?

 

[yorksrob]

Back in 2007 (before the Northern Rock crash) you needed about 70p to buy €1 - the exchange rate had been in that area for a number of years. Now you need about 75p to buy €1. (And that's even after a recent bit of a panic over the Greek election, for most of the past couple of years you needed 80p-85p to buy €1.)

So despite all its issues (and it does have issues) the market thinks more of the euro than it does sterling. What does that say about our currency?

Well, it says a lot about our underlying economy (or lack of it), unfortunately.

However, events in Southern Europe have shown just how difficult it can be, to be trapped with an unrealistically strong currency.

Europe should abandon the grandiose projects and leave a lot more to its member states.

 

[LateThanNever]

Criticism is not censorship. That's a pretty easy concept.

People can say what they like. Other people are allowed to say they're full of s***. That's how free speech works.



This.

Globalisation, for good or ill, is on the global agenda. No country can single-handedly stop that or defend itself against it without crippling its own economy. UKIP might have populism behind them, but in the real world hard truths are still that - truths.

Broadly agree. But - the but is! that the UK is physically unable to produce all its own food so has to import. UKIP's idea is that the EU is broadly food producing and exporting, which is true, so they need us more than we need them. I'm not convinced they are still so parochial but who is to say?
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The biggest opponent to the UK joining was DeGaulle!

Quite - but he did live in Hampstead for almost all of the second world war so knew what to expect of us!

In the end much better that the UK and their [now] EU partners bicker about agriculture and fishing than we have another war...

 

[WestCoast]

Like anything, the EU is far from perfect but I do often think that some of the worthwhile projects are overlooked. It is denied by some, but I believe the vast majority including myself look after our own (and family's) interests first and foremost. If we don't feel there are tangible benefits to being in any sort "club", we all feel inclined to think we don't need it. Only human.

I'm currently taking part in the EU's Erasmus+ programme, which provides logistical and financial support to students wishing to spend up to a year studying and/or working in another EU country. Apologies for the buzzwords, but a placement in another EU country really does teach students some great competencies like languages, cultural tolerance and general life skills.

This serves employers in the UK well, as many trade with other EU countries on a daily basis. I've come across other people on the programme who simply couldn't afford a similar placement outside the EU as it's simply too expensive. More UK students should take advantage. This opportunity could be one of many lost in an EU withdrawal, as although some select non-EU members have negotiated to be in it Switzerland has recently had to withdraw.

Also as one fellow participant from the Netherlands humourously put it, "I rather Europe was squabbling about e.g. EU quotas and suchlike and not having wars against each other".

I foresee striking the right balance between integration and isolation being the key debate among many people across Europe.

 

[LateThanNever]

Like anything, the EU is far from perfect .Also as one fellow participant from the Netherlands humourously put it, "I rather Europe was squabbling about e.g. EU quotas and suchlike and not having wars against each other".

I'm afraid the joke is lost on UKIP and their supporters. Not to mention the Tory right wing.
They are all just lost!

 

[transmanche]

Also as one fellow participant from the Netherlands humourously put it, "I rather Europe was squabbling about e.g. EU quotas and suchlike and not having wars against each other".

Although being serious, that was uppermost in the mind of those who created and supported the 'European project'.

In the Schuman Declaration the then French foreign minister said the aim was to "make war not only unthinkable but materially impossible" - because the European economies would become so interdependent on each other. (As opposed to the autarkist policies of pre-war Nazi Germany.)

 

[TheKnightWho]

Back in 2007 (before the Northern Rock crash) you needed about 70p to buy €1 - the exchange rate had been in that area for a number of years. Now you need about 75p to buy €1. (And that's even after a recent bit of a panic over the Greek election, for most of the past couple of years you needed 80p-85p to buy €1.)

So despite all its issues (and it does have issues) the market thinks more of the euro than it does sterling. What does that say about our currency?

Currency strength is not necessarily a good thing economically. After all, China keeps their currency artificially devalued to make their exports more more valuable.

However, yes, from our position we do want a strong pound against the Euro as we're net importers from both the EU and as a whole. Those who rail against the Euro and how expensive it would have been to bail out Ireland et al. often fail to realise that in the long run we're actually losing out.
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Broadly agree. But - the but is! that the UK is physically unable to produce all its own food so has to import. UKIP's idea is that the EU is broadly food producing and exporting, which is true, so they need us more than we need them. I'm not convinced they are still so parochial but who is to say?

Are they serious? If so, that's utter madness.

If anything, we're equidependent, but in reality the rump EU is clearly in the superior position there: if they can't export their domestic food prices crash and it damages their economy. If we can't import we literally run out of food.

It amazes me how people can make those kinds of arguments and not see that they work both ways.

 

[yorksrob]

Currency strength is not necessarily a good thing economically. After all, China keeps their currency artificially devalued to make their exports more more valuable.

However, yes, from our position we do want a strong pound against the Euro as we're net importers from both the EU and as a whole. Those who rail against the Euro and how expensive it would have been to bail out Ireland et al. often fail to realise that in the long run we're actually losing out.

However, as a country, we already import too much in comparison to what we export, therefore having an artificially strong currency would do us no good.

 

[TheKnightWho]

However, as a country, we already import too much in comparison to what we export, therefore having an artificially strong pound would do us no good.

A strong pound would be good for imports, as it would make them cheaper from our perspective.

Of course, it's not quite as simple as that. You ideally want to strike a balance, because the laws of supply and demand still apply of course.

 

[yorksrob]

A strong pound would be good for imports, as it would make them cheaper from our perspective.

Yes, but if we can't sell anything then we haven't got anything to buy those imports with, so we end up with either bigger debt or lower living standards.
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Of course, it's not quite as simple as that. You ideally want to strike a balance, because the laws of supply and demand still apply of course.

The problem is that a massive single currency prevents countries from being able to strike that balance as they're saddled with the stronger than optimal currency, as is happening in Southern Europe.

 

[transmanche]

Those who rail against the Euro and how expensive it would have been to bail out Ireland et al. often fail to realise that in the long run we're actually losing out.

Although the UK did 'bail out' Ireland, with a direct loan of £7billion and (according to the Torygraph) indirect bailouts of £14billion via RBS and Lloyds.

 

[Flamingo]

Although the UK did 'bail out' Ireland, with a direct loan of £7billion and (according to the Torygraph) indirect bailouts of £14billion via RBS and Lloyds.

Which have been or are in the process of being repaid - with interest...