Why I avoid e-tickets

[Belperpete]

Moderator note: Split from

When purchasing tickets online to collect at a station, why does it ask which station I’m collecting the ticket from?

Sounds like a stupid question I know, but why does it ask what station I’m collecting my ticket from if it then tells me that I can collect the ticket from any station I wish, and don’t have to collect it from the one I’ve selected?

www.railforums.co.uk

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 May 2026 ==

I would advise avoiding TOD (ticket on departure) collection, and use e-tickets, wherever possible, as there can be technical issues and it's a very outdated system these days, which is being phased out.

TOD may be outdated, but unfortunately newer doesn't mean better.

I avoid e-tickets like the plague, as they always cause me problems. Most of my journeys involve a break of journey, often overnight or longer, starting or finishing short. Ticket barriers inevitably reject e-tickets in such situations, and staff seem to adopt a "computer says no" attitude, whereas they are happy to wave me through with a CCST.

Unfortunately this forum's site only seems to offer e-tickets, which is why I rarely use it.

 

[yorkie]

TOD may be outdated, but unfortunately newer doesn't mean better.

TOD collections can be subject to printing errors; a retailer has no control over the printing element, and train companies have been known to refuse to help passengers in such situations. I've assisted various passengers in printing disputes over the years.

I avoid e-tickets like the plague, as they always cause me problems.

This isn't due to the format, though.

Most of my journeys involve a break of journey, often overnight or longer, starting or finishing short.

This makes no difference; I've had staff deface TOD tickets when breaking my journey, purporting to invalidate the tickets. e-tickets cannot be defaced in such a manner.

Ticket barriers inevitably reject e-tickets in such situations, and staff seem to adopt a "computer says no" attitude, whereas they are happy to wave me through with a CCST.

Ticket barriers are no more likely to reject e-tickets than CCST/TOD tickets.

However, it is true that at some locations, it can be the case that one type of ticket is rejected while another type is accepted, but this isn't down to any inherent property of one format over the other, nor a choice by the rail industry as a whole to reject one format over another for break of journey. Instead, it's typically down to individual programming at specific ticket gates.

It appears that you are actually referring to staff behaviour, i.e. staff at some locations you use don't have any interest in examining old style tickets, but do have an interest in examining e-tickets, and then making up their own rules. This is purely a behavioural problem; the rail industry is rife with poor behaviour by some staff, but using an outdated ticket format does not materially alter the chances of being denied your legitimate rights by such staff,

Unfortunately this forum's site only seems to offer e-tickets, which is why I rarely use it.

That isn't true.

However it costs the retailer (and, effectively us, due to loss of commission) when people choose to collect through TOD rather than use e-tickets, so you would have to click "show more options" to get this costly option, which funnels more money to the train companies who operate the machines*





(* to be fair, although it is costly for retailers when people collect through machines, the train companies do not make a profit on this, because it is very expensive to run the outdated TOD system, and expensive to procure and maintain ticket machines)

 

[John Webb]

<snip> (* to be fair, although it is costly for retailers when people collect through machines, the train companies do not make a profit on this, because it is very expensive to run the outdated TOD system, and expensive to procure and maintain ticket machines)

But surely the companies need to provide ticket machines anyway? At least judging by the queues I've come across at my local station (SAC) they are popular at the entrance opposite the main station building and the ticket office therein.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But surely the companies need to provide ticket machines anyway? At least judging by the queues I've come across at my local station (SAC) they are popular at the entrance opposite the main station building and the ticket office therein.

The more people use ToD, the more machines you need. The switch to e-tickets being the primary choice has allowed the number of machines to be reduced significantly at some major stations. Sure you can't drop below 1 unless you allow on board sales, but Euston for instance has fewer than half the number it had maybe 10 years ago - look at how spaced out they are now - there used to be a near-unbroken row of them there.

 

[Edvid]

How exactly will ticket machines be involved (if at all) in eToD when that becomes available?

 

[Belperpete]

It appears that you are actually referring to staff behaviour, i.e. staff at some locations you use don't have any interest in examining old style tickets, but do have an interest in examining e-tickets, and then making up their own rules. This is purely a behavioural problem; the rail industry is rife with poor behaviour by some staff, but using an outdated ticket format does not materially alter the chances of being denied your legitimate rights by such staff,

Agreed that the ticket format shouldn't alter the chances, but my experience is that in practice it does significantly affect the chances of being let through without issues.

That isn't true.

I will check when I next need to buy a ticket on line, but the last time I tried using the forum's site, I couldn't see any way to change the delivery method. Thinking I must have missed it earlier in the process, I aborted and started again, but again with no success. It just showed the delivery method as e ticket, with no option to select an alternative delivery method. Whereabouts in the process are you given the option to select an alternative?

 

[walkingsophie]

However it costs the retailer (and, effectively us, due to loss of commission) when people choose to collect through TOD rather than use e-tickets, so you would have to click "show more options" to get this costly option, which funnels more money to the train companies who operate the machines*

Out of curiosity, how much does it cost per ticket?

 

[Bletchleyite]

How exactly will ticket machines be involved (if at all) in eToD when that becomes available?

Presumably they will print them as barcoded e-tickets. I can't see how you could have any form of ToD without a machine to print it - if it's on your phone it's just an e-ticket.

The saving is in being able to remove the costlier, more custom-designed CCST printers and stock from these machines and just let them print on cheap blank till roll, because the barcode, not the actual ticket, is the item of record.

 

[Belperpete]

Ticket barriers are no more likely to reject e-tickets than CCST/TOD tickets.

My experience is that attempting to use an e-ticket that has already been scanned on a previous day is always rejected.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My experience is that attempting to use an e-ticket that has already been scanned on a previous day is always rejected.

This probably makes sense, because people very, very rarely do overnight breaks of journey even where allowed, it's far more likely to be an attempt at re-use, so it's worth having a human look at exactly what the scans are to determine which it is.

 

[MrJeeves]

Out of curiosity, how much does it cost per ticket?

https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/publications/13115-rail-industry-commission-rates-from-1st-apr-2025/file.html

For ToD:

Costs differ if issued through (a) an on-station ticket vending machine or through (b) a station booking office

(a)

• A variable fee rate of 0.50% shall be due on all ToD fulfilment transactions (CTR) with a value at or above £15.
• For CTR values of less than £15, a fixed minimum fee of 7.5p per CTR shall be due.
• For CTR values at or above £100, a fixed maximum fee of 50p per CTR shall be due.

(b)

• A variable fee rate of 3.66% of the CTR value shall be due on all ToD fulfilment CTRs at a Ticket Office, subject to a maximum fee of £1.00 per CTR.
• In the event that a customer uses a Ticket Office for ToD fulfilment instead of a TVM as a result of TVM Failure, the Ticket Office fee set out above shall not apply, and the ToD Fulfilment fee shall be calculated on the basis of a TVM issue instead.

For E-Tickets:

0.08% per CTR for fares over £10, subject to a cap of £0.30

 

[redreni]

When I choose ticket formats I take account of the fact some TOCs will check scan-in times for e-tickets (or tap-in times for tickets held on Smartcards) when processing delay repay claims, and in at least one case which I had to take all the way to the Ombudsman, draw ridiculous and unsustainable conclusions from that data.

They do not, by contrast, tend check to see when a CCST was used at a ticket barrier, even though that might be technically possible if they have the ticket number. It's less easy, so they don't do it.

This is an example that illustrates a wider point. In the specific instance, the delay repay claim I submitted against a digital ticket would have been paid straight away had I been using an analogue ticket because the TOC wouldn't have had the data it used, spuriously, to reject my claim.

Which is in line with the general rule of thumb I apply - the less data TOCs and other businesses have about us, the less the chances of them misusing it, misunderstanding it or just losing control of it (e.g. TfL's loss of vast amounts of identifiable personal data which, 20 years earlier, it couldn't possibly have lost because it neither had it nor needed it).

So it's a balance. I am more likely to use ToD when I know it will be convenient to collect the ticket ahead of time, so that I would have half a chance of resolving any printing issue before travel. I definitely don't want to rely on collecting immediately before travel from a station that only has one TVM. I also buy a lot of Travelcards and cross-London tickets which still require ToD.

The last time I used an e-ticket it caused needless friction at a gateline, though. Chelmsford to Barking. No barcode scanners at Barking.

For what it's worth I do think providing the facility to buy a ticket at the station should be seen as a TOC responsibility which the TOC should fund, without retailers having to subsidise it. The fixed costs of having TOD facilities at stations, less the fixed costs of having facilities to purchase a ticket at stations, is zero, and the marginal cost of printing the ToD tickets and receipts is very small indeed. The retailer should only have to pay for the latter, in my view.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For what it's worth I do think providing the facility to buy a ticket at the station should be seen as a TOC responsibility which the TOC should fund, without retailers having to subsidise it. The fixed costs of having TOD facilities at stations, less the fixed costs of having facilities to purchase a ticket at stations, is zero

It's not. With most tickets purchased online now, you need FAR more TVMs at stations if you are going to have them all collected than if they are mostly e-tickets. As I note above there are now fewer than half as many TVMs at Euston than there were 10 years ago for that exact reason.

Yes, for one person it's a bit marginal, but that's a bit like me saying that if I drive into central London instead of taking the train I won't contribute much to congestion. I indeed won't, but if everyone did it it would be awful. You can't really make a valid comparison based on one person acting outside norms as the effect of that in pretty much every context is marginal.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Try replacing a normal off peak CCST when you've lost it. I rest my case for eTickets

 

[redreni]

It's not. With most tickets purchased online now, you need FAR more TVMs at stations if you are going to have them all collected than if they are mostly e-tickets. As I note above there are now fewer than half as many TVMs at Euston than there were 10 years ago for that exact reason.

Yes, for one person it's a bit marginal, but that's a bit like me saying that if I drive into central London instead of taking the train I won't contribute much to congestion. I indeed won't, but if everyone did it it would be awful. You can't really make a valid comparison based on one person acting outside norms as the effect of that in pretty much every context is marginal.

The marginal cost of printing a ticket bought online versus not doing so is marginal, given the infrastructure is there.

Stations would need TVMs whether people collected ToD or not.

I'm inclined to think it is only a very small proportion of stations that genuinely need multiple TVMs which they wouldn't need anyway, without the demand for ToD collections. I'm open to being persuaded otherwise by data. I'm happy for retailers to be charged for the provision of any extra TVMs that can be shown only to be needed because of ToD demand.

I just think making retailers pay for TVMs that would need to be provided anyway - which is most of them, including all TVMs at small stations that only have one TVM - is unreasonable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The marginal cost of printing a ticket bought online versus not doing so is marginal, given the infrastructure is there.

Stations would need TVMs whether people collected ToD or not.

For one person yes.

If everyone is collecting, you need far more of them or the queues are excessive.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 May 2026 ==

I'm inclined to think it is only a very small proportion of stations that genuinely need multiple TVMs which they wouldn't need anyway, without the demand for ToD collections. I'm open to being persuaded otherwise by data. I'm happy for retailers to be charged for the provision of any extra TVMs that can be shown only to be needed because of ToD demand.

Just go to any large station - New St, Kings Cross, Paddington, Euston, wherever - and see how few there are now and how there are huge gaps where lots once were. That's because of e-tickets.

Waterloo even used to have a stack of collection only machines.

 

[redreni]

Try replacing a normal off peak CCST when you've lost it. I rest my case for eTickets

I've never lost a ticket before they day of travel.

I would only lose a ticket on the day of travel if I lost my wallet or had it snatched which, to be honest, is rather less likely these days than having your phone snatched.

And if my phone was snatched or lost on the day of travel and I had an e-ticket which I hadn't printed out, I would have to buy another ticket. I've got no other way of accessing it without going home. Gone are the days when there were internet cafes everywhere, where you could log in to the your account on the retailer's website or log into your email account and print your ticket, as long as you remembered your password.

Whereas, if I had a CCST, it would still be in my wallet even after my phone had been snatched, and I would be able to use it to get home.

 

[Belperpete]

This probably makes sense, because people very, very rarely do overnight breaks of journey even where allowed, it's far more likely to be an attempt at re-use, so it's worth having a human look at exactly what the scans are to determine which it is.

The problem then is that the human tends to reject it because "the computer says no". Whereas I have never had a problem with continuing to use a CCST after an overnight or longer break of journey, even when someone has clipped or scribbled on it.

I can see the advantage of e-tickets from the railways and retailers perspectives, as it is a much more sophisticated system that should significantly reduce fraud. However, the more sophisticated you make a system, and the more accurate you make it, the more people tend to trust what it says. This is basic human nature.

And this is exactly my experience with e-tickets, when a barrier rejects a ticket then the staff naturally tend to assume that the ticket is not valid. Trying to persuade them that it is actually valid can be difficult, particularly if the ticket details are only visible on a tiny phone screen viewed at a suitable angle. Whereas with CCST, they naturally tend to assume that the barriers got it wrong, because they so frequently do so with CCST.

If you are going to make a system more sophisticated, you actually need better trained staff using it who know what to do when it gets it wrong. Unfortunately I don't see that happening with e-tickets.

 

[redreni]

For one person yes.

If everyone is collecting, you need far more of them or the queues are excessive.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 May 2026 ==



Just go to any large station - New St, Kings Cross, Paddington, Euston, wherever - and see how few there are now and how there are huge gaps where lots once were. That's because of e-tickets.

Waterloo even used to have a stack of collection only machines.

So what?

Those machines are gone now. The remainder - or most of the remainder - of machines at large stations, are needed anyway for on-the-day ticket purchases. And most TVMs aren't at big stations. There are very few big stations.

Most stations are small, and that's where most of the TVMs are. And they're needed anyway.

At best, the swingeing charges on TOD, designed to encourage e-ticketing uptake, have served their purpose because, as you say, the massive banks of 30 or 40 TVMs at the big city centre terminals have gone. Why should retailers pay the cost of maintaining machines that don't exist anymore?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Those machines are gone now. The remainder - or most of the remainder - of machines at large stations, are needed anyway for on-the-day ticket purchases. And most TVMs aren't at big stations. There are very few big stations.

They'd need to come back if large numbers went back to CCST.

Arguing that it makes no difference if one person steps outside the norm is a bit by the by. You need to look at what larger numbers of people do.

 

[redreni]

They'd need to come back if large numbers went back to CCST.

Arguing that it makes no difference if one person steps outside the norm is a bit by the by. You need to look at what larger numbers of people do.

I don't think those machines are coming back whether people want to use them or not.

 

[Belperpete]

I can see the situation coming when retailers are allowed to pass on the cost of ToD tickets to customers. As effectively is already the case in some continental countries, where you pay a small surcharge for a physical ticket.

I can see that for people who make simple point to point journeys, there are advantages to buying your ticket on your mobile. However, until e-tickets become sophisticated enough to cope with things like overnight break of journey without me being treated like I am trying to defraud the system, I shall be steering clear of them. Unfortunately I suspect that things like overnight break of journey are also likely to be on the way out, as the railway heads ever further down the path to inflexible single-leg ticketing.

 

[redreni]

They already are allowed to charge, and some do.

CrossCountry even does so for cross-London journeys that are only fulfillable to ToD, which I find extraordinary; it amounts to drip-pricing because the fee is not shown up front, and there's no way to avoid it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can see the situation coming when retailers are allowed to pass on the cost of ToD tickets to customers. As effectively is already the case in some continental countries, where you pay a small surcharge for a physical ticket.

Some retailers already do.

I can see that for people who make simple point to point journeys, there are advantages to buying your ticket on your mobile. However, until e-tickets become sophisticated enough to cope with things like overnight break of journey without me being treated like I am trying to defraud the system, I shall be steering clear of them. Unfortunately I suspect that things like overnight break of journey are also likely to be on the way out, as the railway heads ever further down the path to inflexible single-leg ticketing.

Hardly anyone does overnight BoJ anyway. I don't propose ending that right, but it wouldn't be a great loss in the scheme of things particularly if it came with single leg pricing to allow a journey to be broken overnight one way but not the other, or in different places in each direction. Its impact would certainly be a lot lower than the new refund policy.

 

[Haywain]

CrossCountry even does so for cross-London journeys that are only fulfillable to ToD, which I find extraordinary; it amounts to drip-pricing because the fee is not shown up front, and there's no way to avoid it.

My understanding is that they only charge when other fulfilment methods are available, in which case you must be choosing ToD over an alternative.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My understanding is that they only charge when other fulfilment methods are available, in which case you must be choosing ToD over an alternative.

Didn't they just change their booking engine to the same awful one GWR are using? If so it's probably broken. And fixing stuff that's to the railway's advantage is rarely rushed.

 

[Haywain]

Didn't they just change their booking engine to the same awful one GWR are using? If so it's probably broken. And fixing stuff that's to the railway's advantage is rarely rushed.

I just went on the CrossCountry site to test buying a Day Travelcard for this afternoon. I was offered fulfilment to a CrossCountry smartcard or ToD, both at no additional charge. A longer journey that involves a cross-London journey was also offered as ToD without any additional charge.

 

[Belperpete]

Hardly anyone does overnight BoJ anyway. I don't propose ending that right, but it wouldn't be a great loss in the scheme of things particularly if it came with single leg pricing to allow a journey to be broken overnight one way but not the other, or in different places in each direction. Its impact would certainly be a lot lower than the new refund policy.

I am not convinced that the new refund policy has had a major impact. I have never had a ticket refunded on the day or later. And it is still available in cases of disruption, which covers quite a wide canvas. It is a sledge hammer to crack a very small number of cases of abuse.

Most people nowadays seem to travel with advance tickets, and will be as equally unconcerned by the loss of refund rights as they would be by the loss of break of journey. We have seen this with the East Coast fare simplification, which has effectively removed a lot of the advantages of rail travel that I value, with barely a murmur from the majority of passengers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am not convinced that the new refund policy has had a major impact. I have never had a ticket refunded on the day or later. And it is still available in cases of disruption, which covers quite a wide canvas. It is a sledge hammer to crack a very small number of cases of abuse.

It's more relevant in the case of single-leg pricing where people may wish to decide on the day to extend their stay to the next day. Yes, you can delay buying it, but then you lose protection if there is serious disruption if you don't hold a ticket.

I have also very occasionally changed the day of an outward journey but it's rare. Main time I've done it is in disruption which is of course covered, though it can be annoying having to wait for your actual train to be cancelled for that to be guaranteed, I'd often rather take the £5 hit and plan to drive to Aylesbury/Bicester further out if the WCML is looking messy.

Most people nowadays seem to travel with advance tickets, and will be as equally unconcerned by the loss of refund rights as they would be by the loss of break of journey. We have seen this with the East Coast fare simplification, which has effectively removed a lot of the advantages of rail travel that I value, with barely a murmur from the majority of passengers.

Advances are more flexible in that regard now as they can be changed on the day of departure up to departure time. Though surprisingly many people don't know they're changeable, you see a lot posted on local Facebook groups that they can't use and they're surprised when you tell them they can be changed.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Most people nowadays seem to travel with advance tickets

They don't. People overwhelmingly still travel with walk up tickets.

The latest ORR stats show this:


The table above shows 35.9m advance ticket journeys in Q4 2025, compared to 147m anytime ticket journeys and 215m off-peak ticket journeys.