Why does the rail system find it so difficult to provide straightforward information?

[TUC]

As an example of the lack of clarity of some of the information, if one works through the hurdles mentioned above on the NRE website to reach the page about the Huddersfield disruption at https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/engineering-works/tru-huddersfield-20250830/

One of the changes listed is 'Trains between Huddersfield and Leeds via Dewsbury will be diverted to run between Bradford Interchange and Leeds via Halifax and Brighouse'.

I've read that four times and I'm still not sure whether this is saying it will call at any of the regular stations, aside from Leeds, or whether it is saying that a completely different service will run?

 

[The exile]

As an example of the lack of clarity of some of the information, if one works through the hurdles mentioned above on the NRE website to reach the page about the Huddersfield disruption at https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/engineering-works/tru-huddersfield-20250830/

one of changes listed is 'Trains between Huddersfield and Leeds via Dewsbury will be diverted to run between Bradford Interchange and Leeds via Halifax and Brighouse'.

I've read that four times and I'm still not sure whether this is saying it will call at any of the regular stations, aside from Leeds, or whether it is saying that a completely different service will run?

Especially as in the line above we are told that “trains between Huddersfield and Bradford Interchange will not run”.

 

[DarloRich]

One of the changes listed is 'Trains between Huddersfield and Leeds via Dewsbury will be diverted to run between Bradford Interchange and Leeds via Halifax and Brighouse'.

it is quite clear: that is referring to TPE trains. I think you are wilfully looking to moan.

I've read that four times and I'm still not sure whether this is saying it will call at any of the regular stations, aside from Leeds, or whether it is saying that a completely different service will run?

Especially as in the line above we are told that “trains between Huddersfield and Bradford Interchange will not run”.

Again : it is quite clear. Northern trains wont run. TPE will be diverted. They do not routinely call at intermediate stations on that line. That is obvious when you read the full notice rather than present sections out of context.

 

[noddingdonkey]

So are you saying that they can’t be bothered to inform those who might just need a train to or from Huddersfield during that time? For certain it upgrade site hasn’t been easy to work through either.

No, I'm not saying that at all.

Reading comprehension seems to be a recurring theme in recent posts.

 

[DarloRich]

RTT is showing a lot of trains calking at Brighouse for Leeds and beyond in September, not just the Manchester direction.

not last Sunday when I travelled or this Sunday when I will be on that section again.

You assume that people have time on their hands to attend the information session.

Indeed - but being the local people the post seems to be aimed at they have a better chance than me!

Besides, this is the modern world, people rightly want to be able to click and find the information they want.

They can - quite easily. The vast majority of travellers don't need or want the esoteric level of detail required by posters here.

I agree - the information seems to me to get the essentials across in a pretty effective way. Difficult to understand the criticism, really.

Indeed!

 

[The exile]

it is quite clear: that is referring to TPE trains. I think you are wilfully looking to moan.




Again : it is quite clear. Northern trains wont run. TPE will be diverted. They do not routinely call at intermediate stations on that line. That is obvious when you read the full notice rather than present sections out of context.

The fact that various people have failed to understand it rather suggests it is not as clear as it could be.

How about this. “Trains operated by Northern which normally operate between Huddersfield and Leeds via Dewsbury will instead be diverted and operate via Brighouse, Halifax and Bradford Interchange. This means that the trains which normally operate between Huddersfield and Bradford Interchange will not run. If you intend to travel from or to stations between Huddersfield and Leeds please check the alterations here (link).” Too many “operates”….!

 

[TUC]

The fact that various people have failed to understand it rather suggests it is not as clear as it could be.

How about this. “Trains operated by Northern which normally operate between Huddersfield and Leeds via Dewsbury will instead be diverted and operate via Brighouse, Halifax and Bradford Interchange. This means that the trains which normally operate between Huddersfield and Bradford Interchange will not run. If you intend to travel from or to stations between Huddersfield and Leeds please check the alterations here (link).” Too many “operates”….!

It's still the 'diverted' reference which is confusing as it usually implies still being able to get from A to B, but via an alternative route. How about:

'Trains operated by Northern which normally operate between Huddersfield and Leeds via Dewsbury will not run. An additional service will instead operate between Bradford Interchange and Leeds via Halifax and Brighouse. The timetable for this additional service can be found at 'x'.'

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Aug 2025 ==

not last Sunday when I travelled or this Sunday when I will be on that section again.

This is about the September closure, not current weekend arrangements.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Aug 2025 ==

They can - quite easily. The vast majority of travellers don't need or want the esoteric level of detail required by posters here.

This isn't about esoteric detail. It's about clear language and readily accessible links with fuller information.

 

[DarloRich]

This isn't about esoteric detail. It's about clear language and readily accessible links with fuller information.

Which I maintain is provided. Once again, this seems like a warning of disruption to come aimed at the general population. Perhaps you wilfully miss that this isn't the only communication about this matter.

The language is clear, simple and accessible. It is perfectly clear what is going on and where to get more information.

There is also a point about communication of this nature in relation to capacity - the diverted TPE services are for maintaining long distance connectivity.

'Trains operated by Northern which normally operate between Huddersfield and Leeds via Dewsbury will not run. An additional service will instead operate between Bradford Interchange and Leeds via Halifax and Brighouse. The timetable for this additional service can be found at 'x'.'

good - but not for THIS communication. That is the detail you should get from the TOC when planning your individual journey.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Aug 2025 ==

The fact that various people have failed to understand it rather suggests it is not as clear as it could be.

Wilfully I suspect!

 

[RedKing]

I think some people just have it in for whatever the railway does. The need to have a moan...

It doesn't tell you which services are diverted to where or where specifically to find further information.

You want them to list every diverted service?
If you are going to Bradford Interchange, it's a bus to Brighouse then a Northern service. If you are going to Manchester, it's a bus to Brighouse then a TPE service. If you are going to Stalybridge (or stations in between) it's a bus (different bus possible depending on your destination). If you are going to Leeds, it's a bus to Brighouse then a Northern or TPE to Leeds. If you are going to Castleford, it's a bus to Wakefield Kirkgate then a Northern. If you are going to Penistone, it's a bus to Berry Brow (for some days) then a Northern.
Catchy...

You start listing every combination, people won't read the information. Hence, go check NRE for your own journey requirements - Huddersfield closure page on National Rail is more than informative; a video explaining the closures, some bullet points with the main impacts, and then various links. Plus...Google (other search engines are available).

As an example of the lack of clarity of some of the information, if one works through the hurdles mentioned above on the NRE website to reach the page about the Huddersfield disruption at https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/engineering-works/tru-huddersfield-20250830/

One of the changes listed is 'Trains between Huddersfield and Leeds via Dewsbury will be diverted to run between Bradford Interchange and Leeds via Halifax and Brighouse'.

I've read that four times and I'm still not sure whether this is saying it will call at any of the regular stations, aside from Leeds, or whether it is saying that a completely different service will run?

I think you're reading it with the intention of not understanding it. It clearly states what is happening to that service and that it will now be diverted to run a different route. If you are trying to get to/from one of the impacted stations, you simply have a look on a Journey Planner. Again, it can't list every possible permutation.


What I've got from this thread is that people can't look for their own information and expect everything to be explained to their own unique journeys/situations. Also bearing in mind Huddersfield closures have happened numerous times already (about 100 different weekends + some extended periods impacting weekdays) and this is just a prolonged version of that. Customers will know the score by now.

 

[Andyh82]

As it’s such a major closure, I’d expect more than just a page of plain text writing like it was just some trivial closure.

It’d expect a micro site with a direct advertised address that goes straight there, Northern and Transpennine Express should be explained at the same time, not in separate sections as for some journeys both operators do the same route (Dewsbury to Leeds for example). Information should be expressed in multiple different ways including maps, with explanations for local passengers and for long distance passengers, for people who don’t know railway geography and for those that do.

The communications about all the TRU closures have been pretty poor, with Northern, TPE, National Rail and the TRU website all having various bits of information, all linking to and from each other.

 

[TheManBehind]

I suspect a lot of this is down to computer control, which someone seems to have introduced without giving much consideration to interaction with passengers (who are, after all, what the passenger railway is there for). A human will have an intention, which they can convey because they realise this might be helpful (OK - it may then have to change, but won't very often) - I don't think computers have "intentions" (nor a concept of being helpful).

It's more that the question will be asked "how long do you want the process to take?" The signaller won't know until the crew are in place. If both crew are in place then it'll typically be the one that was supposed to go first in the timetable - but might not be depending on infrastructure availability, services blocking the route, TRTS pressed, etc - stuff that ultimately the passenger and often the staff can't see. Now, the signaller could stop, contact the station advise them, then the station advises customers, everyone switches trains and boards, but this is time - and if you've got other trains stacked up outside, then getting the platform free and customers into a platform is more important in that instance than the 3-4 minute difference in journey time saved by boarding this train rather than that one.

Now, I'm not defending that process - Lord knows it's rubbish, and if frontline teams had better global visibility of what's going on on the network, and better appreciation of each other's jobs we might just (a) get better at managing disruption, and (b) get better at not blaming each other when it doesn't go well! Half the challenges, I've found, are simply because if you're onboard crew, your worldview is your train, and you want to do right by your passengers - without having a full understanding of the decisions going on outside of your train. That's a management issue, no doubt, and not helped by the lack of contingency plans that folks on the ground can both see and rely on being used appropriately.

As an example of the approach to information dissemination - during yesterday's unfortunate disruption at Bristol Temple Meads I overheard someone being given the explanation "the announcers have other things to do" in answer to the question of why no announcements were being made as to what was going on. Sorry - at times of disruption at major nodes, it is vital that there is someone whose ONLY responsibility is to get an overview of what's going on and explain it to passengers (even if that's only "we have no information to give at the moment - there will be an update in 5 minutes at the latest").

I've literally taken people off of other information duties in order to cover announcement spots before - ridiculously critical role in disruption at a major station.

 

[YorksLad12]

As an example of the lack of clarity of some of the information, if one works through the hurdles mentioned above on the NRE website to reach the page about the Huddersfield disruption at https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/engineering-works/tru-huddersfield-20250830/

One of the changes listed is 'Trains between Huddersfield and Leeds via Dewsbury will be diverted to run between Bradford Interchange and Leeds via Halifax and Brighouse'.

I've read that four times and I'm still not sure whether this is saying it will call at any of the regular stations, aside from Leeds, or whether it is saying that a completely different service will run?

Especially as in the line above we are told that “trains between Huddersfield and Bradford Interchange will not run”.

Indeed, and this is why the direction is important. I'd have rewritten it more explicitly on the alerts I used to write.

For the stoppers: "Stopping services from Leeds to Huddersfield will be diverted at Mirfield to run via Brighouse to Halifax and Bradford Interchange. There will be no service between Mirfield and Huddersfield."
For the TPE services: Trains between Manchester and Leeds will be diverted at Stalybridge to run via Sowerby Bridge and Brighouse, and will not call at Huddersfield."

That's assuming I've got the diversions correct, of course!

 

[Deepgreen]

Yet again, privatisation has a lot to answer for on the information front - every TOC has steadily eroded any previous standard, introducing their own fatuous terms like 'calling point' for 'station', etc. Different styles also tend to confuse matters - and then there is the abandonment of simple and established stuff like yellow first class cantrail stripes in the pointless drive to be different. All told, even though there is almost no competition for passengers as very few routes offer a choice, each TOC seems to think it has to compete rather than collaborate - result; mess.

 

[TUC]

Yet again, privatisation has a lot to answer for on the information front - every TOC has steadily eroded any previous standard, introducing their own fatuous terms like 'calling point' for 'station', etc. Different styles also tend to confuse matters - and then there is the abandonment of simple and established stuff like yellow first class cantrail stripes in the pointless drive to be different. All told, even though there is almost no competition for passengers as very few routes offer a choice, each TOC seems to think it has to compete rather than collaborate - result; mess.

I think you forget that the main protagonists here-TPE and Northern-are both state-owned (and, whilst avoiding getting drown into a wider debate, users of the East Coast Main Lime have seen a lot of benefits of competition. There is a risk that those in the South East think that, because they haven't benefited, no one else has).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Aug 2025 ==

I think some people just have it in for whatever the railway does. The need to have a moan...




What I've got from this thread is that people can't look for their own information and expect everything to be explained to their own unique journeys/situations. Also bearing in mind Huddersfield closures have happened numerous times already (about 100 different weekends + some extended periods impacting weekdays) and this is just a prolonged version of that. Customers will know the score by now.

You seem to assume that there are no casual/infrequent customers. Indeed, comments from some above do seem to smack of 'because I understand it, of course everyone will'.

Any business wants to grow, and that is done by being very welcoming to the casual customer, and to ones who are less confident and informed.

No, it is not possible to map out every scenario on a single webpage, but there are some very obvious high volume flows on this route e.g.

-Huddersfield to Leeds
-Huddersfield to Manchester Piccadilly.

It would be easy, and customer friendly, to include links to the revised timetables for these, together with links for 'if you want to travel on to Redcar, see link 'x', onto Hull, see 'y'.

 

[BurtonM]

It really isn't clear enough. I used to have regular issues getting home from work due to Northern bustitutions that were only publicised deep within Northern's website on a page that was particularly hard to locate and navigate. The logic seemed to be that they'd mentioned it somewhere and that was the only obligation - I was too busy to be checking journey planners constantly, and I didn't know what time I'd be finishing from one day to the next.
I don't get why there aren't more posters in stations etc...
The publications for these things should be printed and put on a board in affected stations, I don't see why any less is considered acceptable, or indeed accessible.


Also, 'check journey planner' doesn't even work sometimes.
There was a time recently where engineering works closed Ashton-under-lyne completely on a Sunday, and Northern didn't provide a rail replacement bus, instead just directing Stalybridge-Manchester passengers onto TPE, and Ashton passengers onto Bee Network buses or Metrolink (!!!!).
The journey planner didn't show the services as cancelled as they were never intended to run at all, so 'no fares are available' and the journey planner offered precisely no advice whatsoever.
Shocking, really - especially when you then go to Northern's website and get told 'go away and get a bus or tram instead' - potentially at more expense too.

 

[noddingdonkey]

You seem to assume that there are no casual/infrequent customers. Indeed, comments from some above do seem to smack of 'because I understand it, of course everyone will'.

It would be easy, and customer friendly, to include links to the revised timetables for these, together with links for 'if you want to travel on to Redcar, see link 'x', onto Hull, see 'y'.

The infrequent traveller will use the provided link to NRE, put in their origin and destination and be provided with information on the available services (as diverted or replaced by buses).

As has been pointed out to you upthread, the single social media post which you are fixating on is not the only message on this.

 

[RedKing]

Next thing, we'll all be complaining about 'information overload'.

The average customer will use a journey planner, NRE, Trainline, TOC-specific, and put in where they are going from to where they are going to. If they are going to/from Huddersfield, it'll tell them they need to change onto a bus at Brighouse/Wakefield Kirkgate/Berry Brow/Stalybridge, if they are going Manchester - Leeds, I don't think they'll really care about which way they are going as long as they get there.

The only people this really impacts is those who travel to/from Huddersfield (and neighbouring stations with no service for the next 30 days).
If they are a regular traveller, they will know about the block as it has happened numerous times (and I don't think anybody can argue they don't know it's happening even if some wish to argue they don't know how to get around it), so they'll revert to their usual amended journey. Being in TPE/Northern land, I'm sure they are all used to checking Journey Planners to ensure their journey is still happening / on-time.
If they aren't a regular traveller, they'll just do what their itinerary is telling them to do, whether it's change to a bus or that their journey will take an extra 10 minutes on the same train.

It really doesn't have to be that deep...

Also to note that there have been numerous news articles (local and 'national'), plenty of posters, station announcements, leaflets, and social media posts. If somebody is turning up to Huddersfield on Monday 1st September looking for their usual train from Huddersfield to Manchester Victoria, other than knocking on their door to explain their travel options, I don't know what else could be done.

 

[Deepgreen]

I think you forget that the main protagonists here-TPE and Northern-are both state-owned (and, whilst avoiding getting drown into a wider debate, users of the East Coast Main Lime have seen a lot of benefits of competition. There is a risk that those in the South East think that, because they haven't benefited, no one else has).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Aug 2025 ==


You seem to assume that there are no casual/infrequent customers. Indeed, comments from some above do seem to smack of 'because I understand it, of course everyone will'.

Any business wants to grow, and that is done by being very welcoming to the casual customer, and to ones who are less confident and informed.

No, it is not possible to map out every scenario on a single webpage, but there are some very obvious high volume flows on this route e.g.

-Huddersfield to Leeds
-Huddersfield to Manchester Piccadilly.

It would be easy, and customer friendly, to include links to the revised timetables for these, together with links for 'if you want to travel on to Redcar, see link 'x', onto Hull, see 'y'.

They may be now, but the damage was done long ago while the were privatised and people at the various TOCs started inventing diverging terms for things, etc. Reversing the damage done by privatisation is a fearsomely-long task.

 

[Dr Hoo]

They may be now, but the damage was done long ago while the were privatised and people at the various TOCs started inventing diverging terms for things, etc. Reversing the damage done by privatisation is a fearsomely-long task.

Perhaps I am missing something here. Are you saying that Northern and Transpennine are putting out totally balkanised, operator-only information that doesn’t even acknowledge services operated by the other? Are there exclusive replacement buses that only accept one operator’s tickets and so on?

Or is this only about linguistic scruples such as “calling point”?

 

[Bantamzen]

It's been a very long time since I last posted here, but having a hat in this ring with regular travel from Cheshire / Manchester Airport to Yorkshire I thought I'd offer my thoughts.

Out of curiosity, I looked up a number of variable routes from Cheshire & Manchester Airport to Leeds to see what options were thrown up for this week. There were several, which included going from Manchester Piccadilly to Salford Crescent & picking up a Leeds stopper from there, walking across Manchester to pick up a replacement bus or walking / using the tram across Manchester to pick up a diverted TPE or a Northern Calder Valley service. So even from one small area there were different options depending on the time of the same day. Given that this is going to change multiple times over multiple weeks, depending on the date and time, it doesn't seem unreasonable to simply say "Look it's going to vary a lot, use the travel planners to find out the best option for when you want to travel". Indeed using the planners may reveal quicker and easier routes by adjusting travel times slightly.

Others have articulated it, but most people don't want to have to wade through pages of fine detail to work out their specific journey. It might be interesting for some, but it can just add massive confusion to many more.

 

[Andyh82]

That’s a good example of journey planners throwing up all kinds of suggestions and adding even more confusion. I don’t think any public facing information would ever suggest changing at Salford Crescent travelling from Manchester to Leeds. They always recommend staying within the city centre and using either the tram or the bus, or indeed walking from Piccadilly to Victoria.

It’s like when you use a sat nav and it finds a faster route via loads of complicated country lanes saving 2 minutes when in reality the saving is so small you’d be best staying on the main road

 

[Dr Hoo]

That’s a good example of journey planners throwing up all kinds of suggestions and adding even more confusion. I don’t think any public facing information would ever suggest changing at Salford Crescent travelling from Manchester to Leeds. They always recommend staying within the city centre and using either the tram or the bus, or indeed walking from Piccadilly to Victoria.

How can you dismiss a simple cross-platform connection at Salford Crescent (at least until it’s got its third platform) whilst embracing faffing around with buses, trams and walking across Manchester City Centre?

Surely the point was that the option was suggested by ‘public facing’ journey planning tools. In your mind do journey planners exist in a parallel universe to ‘public facing information’?

 

[Deepgreen]

Perhaps I am missing something here. Are you saying that Northern and Transpennine are putting out totally balkanised, operator-only information that doesn’t even acknowledge services operated by the other? Are there exclusive replacement buses that only accept one operator’s tickets and so on?

Or is this only about linguistic scruples such as “calling point”?

It's about several things, all of which go towards answering the OP's question.

 

[BurtonM]

I don’t think any public facing information would ever suggest changing at Salford Crescent travelling from Manchester to Leeds.

Coming into Manchester from Stalybridge is valid via Victoria, then doubling back at Salford Crescent to get to Piccadilly or Oxford Road as it satisfies the 'three mile rule' in the Routing Guide, but it'll never be given as an itinerary as it's not the shortest route possible.

 

[TUC]

Perhaps I am missing something here. Are you saying that Northern and Transpennine are putting out totally balkanised, operator-only information that doesn’t even acknowledge services operated by the other? Are there exclusive replacement buses that only accept one operator’s tickets and so on?

Or is this only about linguistic scruples such as “calling point”?

The National Rail site is balkanised as the Disruptions page requires one to select a specific single operator (or All). It does not enable searches for several operators such as Northern and TPE together, or for specific locations/routes. It is a very odd approach.

 

[Dr Hoo]

The National Rail site is balkanised as the Disruptions page requires one to select a specific single operator (or All). It does not enable searches for several operators such as Northern and TPE together, or for specific locations/routes. It is a very odd approach.

Well, I’ve just had no difficulty in finding details of the Huddersfield work on National Rail, including a nice video with maps and spoken commentary (also with signing). This covered both Northern and Transpennine.

Obviously, if your journey only involves Northern, such as Huddersfield to Penistone, you can go directly to the Northern engineering works page and not be ‘confused’ with ‘irrelevant’ Transpennine diversion stuff.

But as mentioned by various posters above, most people will go directly to a journey planner anyway.

 

[Andyh82]

Well, I’ve just had no difficulty in finding details of the Huddersfield work on National Rail, including a nice video with maps and spoken commentary (also with signing). This covered both Northern and Transpennine.

Obviously, if your journey only involves Northern, such as Huddersfield to Penistone, you can go directly to the Northern engineering works page and not be ‘confused’ with ‘irrelevant’ Transpennine diversion stuff.

But as mentioned by various posters above, most people will go directly to a journey planner anyway.

I can’t see any maps, but then I realise they are only included as part of the ‘video’

I’m not sure why National Rail are suddenly obsessed with doing videos presented in vision by random people.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I can’t see any maps, but then I realise they are only included as part of the ‘video’

I’m not sure why National Rail are suddenly obsessed with doing videos presented in vision by random people.

Err, possibly because it has been recognised for decades that people who both see and hear information are far more likely to remember it than either just audio or just visual? (I recognise that not everyone has both auditory and visual senses.)

Note how well established TV and online ‘video’ advertising have become.