Why does the rail system find it so difficult to provide straightforward information?

[TUC]

There have been discussions on threads at various times on the lack of clarity of information when there is unplanned disruption. However, what is even more frustrating is the lack of clarity of information when the disruption is planned, and so there is time to properly consider how to express it.

One such example is the Huddersfield station closure for most of September for the Trans-Pennine route upgrade work. The social media post from the Upgrade team says the following:
'From Saturday 30 August, Huddersfield station will close for 30 days. ⚠️

The closure will facilitate major TRU upgrades as engineers remodel the tracks and platforms, strengthen Huddersfield viaduct and replace John William Street bridge. Signalling upgrades and track renewals will also be carried out. ️

During the 30-day period, services from Huddersfield towards Manchester, Leeds, York, Bradford and Sheffield will be impacted. Diversionary routes will be used where possible, and rail replacement buses will be in operation.

The station will reopen in a temporary state on 29 September, with three platforms in use instead of six. From this point until early 2027 when the station upgrade is fully complete, there will be changes to some services.

Customers are urged to plan their journeys ahead of time by visiting nationalrail.co.uk or their train operator's website.

️ You can also speak to our team and learn more at our drop-in event outside the station in St. George's Square, on Thursday 21 August from 3pm-7pm.'


The one key piece of information that is missing is that many services will call at Brighouse instead. I recognise it is not every service, but to set this out with a qualification that passengers should check individual journeys would give a much clearer idea of which the key alternative station is.

Moreover, the National Rail link above is not to a dedicated page about the alternative arrangements, but rather to the generic front page of the website, leaving passengers to search for the information.

It does feel like there are very basic communication techniques that the railway too often forgets.

 

[Narrowgauge725]

I agree I have been frustrated trying to find out what is actually happening and in particular at Brighouse which was supposed to be having an update instead of building the temporary one at Hillhouse.

 

[Howardh]

I imagine the routes across the Pennines that way will be packed during the week if my Saturday trip is anything to go by!

Looks like it's a total no-go unless your trip us essential, I'm waiting to see the situation in the first week or so.

Has Brighouse got toilets, snack bar, warm waiting room?

 

[Bletchleyite]

This whole reliance on "just check journey planners" is a bit unhelpful. Journey planners are good, but sometimes an overview is more use, particularly on short distance routes where people mostly travel walk-up.

 

[DarloRich]

what is wrong with the communication? It tells me my train will be distributed, may operate by a diversionary route and replacement buses will run.

it seems clear and straightforward and simple to understand.

 

[Moonshot]

As an insider in this industry ( and on the front line ) .....I have to agree.

 

[DarloRich]

The one key piece of information that is missing is that many services will call at Brighouse instead.

not through trains! At least not at the weekends. I agree you can get a train from Brighouse to Manchester but no where else. Also, is that not a diversionary route?

As an insider in this industry ( and on the front line ) .....I have to agree.

with me or the OP?

 

[Bertie the bus]

My all time favourite was when the Northern franchise was changing from Serco / Abellio to Arriva. Although the Northern name remained Serco / Abellio were responsible for removing their branding prior to the changeover and they started doing it a good month or two beforehand.

There was some major engineering project going on in the Manchester area at the time and there were large banners at many stations directing people to the website for further information. The problem was it was the Serco / Abellio website and therefore they employed people to tape over it so there were just banners saying something is happening but giving no advice or information at all.

I’m sure some people found it inconvenient and frustrating but I just found it hilarious.

 

[YorksLad12]

The trouble with what they've written is that is doesn't answer the question "what does it mean for me?" It's written from TRU's point of view (the number of platforms is irrelevant, it's the services that count) and if it's not pointing to somewhere that gives full details at a glance that's not help either.

In my PTE days we'd do our own rail alerts, based on what NRES had but translated and localised.

 

[Snow1964]

This whole reliance on "just check journey planners" is a bit unhelpful. Journey planners are good, but sometimes an overview is more use, particularly on short distance routes where people mostly travel walk-up.

Totally agree there is overuse of check journey planners, rather than an appendix to message with useful details.

Maybe TPE are different and do update journey planners before announcing check them. But some operators are very poor, eg recent disruption at Westbury, and Crewekerne. GWR took the attitude that updating journey planners can wait 2-3 days, forcing customers to get the message, but not being able to plan until days later.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For what it's worth LNER (though they admittedly have a quite simple route) do quite well at providing diagrammatic summaries of any issues and diversions etc.

 

[Snow1964]

what is wrong with the communication? It tells me my train will be distributed, may operate by a diversionary route and replacement buses will run.

it seems clear and straightforward and simple to understand.

I would argue it's only (less than) half the message

A customer cannot tell :
1) if the replacement buses need to be boarded earlier to maintain arrival time
2) Where bus runs to, and where connects to a train
3) If replacement buses actually connect with the diversion without stupidly long waits, or is it swift interchange
4) At the interchange is it wheelchair, buggy, luggage friendly
5) What does early 2027 mean, 1st Jan, sometime in March or what date
6) Why is it only services towards (list of towns) that are affected, and not journeys from those towns to Huddersfield

As an insider in this industry ( and on the front line ) .....I have to agree.

As you both apparently understand it, please answer those 6 points based on info in the message. Or are you just pretending you understand the details.

 

[DarloRich]

A customer cannot tell :
1) if the replacement buses need to be boarded earlier to maintain arrival time
2) Where bus runs to, and where connects to a train
3) If replacement buses actually connect with the diversion without stupidly long waits, or is it swift interchange
4) At the interchange is it wheelchair, buggy, luggage friendly
5) What does early 2027 mean, 1st Jan, sometime in March or what date
6) Why is it only services towards (list of towns) that are affected, and not journeys from those towns to Huddersfield

Unless you want to give war & peace a run for its word count none of that is required in such a communication. Surely that is clear?

I don't know where the communication has come from but it is CLEARLY an advance notice/general communication for people in the Huddersfield area - your 6 questions would be best addressed by attending the drop in session advertised!

The details, as required by MOST people, are clear: The station is closed between X&Y, trains are diverted, there are bus replacements. Check before travel. ( Plus an advance warning the station might be a bit crazy and thus your journey again disrupted while the work is finished )

 

[amahy]

While unrelated to the post, the following is related to the thread title:

A classic example of this is that when there is disruption, there often two trains departing to the same place at roughly the same time. The signaller will know which train they plan to send out first, but this information is almost never conveyed to people on the platform. It is incredibly annoying when you choose the wrong train and the other one pulls out in front of yours. I’ve even had instances where this has happened, and the later train has either been further delayed, or cancelled. Surely it’s not too much to know which train is departing first?

 

[TUC]

what is wrong with the communication? It tells me my train will be distributed, may operate by a diversionary route and replacement buses will run.

it seems clear and straightforward and simple to understand.

It doesn't tell you which services are diverted to where or where specifically to find further information.

 

[Moonshot]

While unrelated to the post, the following is related to the thread title:

A classic example of this is that when there is disruption, there often two trains departing to the same place at roughly the same time. The signaller will know which train they plan to send out first, but this information is almost never conveyed to people on the platform. It is incredibly annoying when you choose the wrong train and the other one pulls out in front of yours. I’ve even had instances where this has happened, and the later train has either been further delayed, or cancelled. Surely it’s not too much to know which train is departing first?

This is the sort of thing I'm referring to in my earlier post.....we are shockingly poor at this. The planned stuff isn't too bad....but the disruptive info is constantly found wanting. I sympathise with customers.

 

[TUC]

Unless you want to give war & peace a run for its word count none of that is required in such a communication. Surely that is clear?

I don't know where the communication has come from but it is CLEARLY an advance notice/general communication for people in the Huddersfield area - your 6 questions would be best addressed by attending the drop in session advertised!

You assume that people have time on their hands to attend the information session.

Besides, this is the modern world, people rightly want to be able to click and find the information they want.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2025 ==

Has Brighouse got toilets, snack bar, warm waiting room?

They're nice to have, but why would they make any difference to whether I catch a train at Brighouse?

I park my car. I get on the train. That's it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2025 ==

not through trains! At least not at the weekends. I agree you can get a train from Brighouse to Manchester but no where else. Also, is that not a diversionary route?

RTT is showing a lot of trains calking at Brighouse for Leeds and beyond in September, not just the Manchester direction.

 

[The exile]

While unrelated to the post, the following is related to the thread title:

A classic example of this is that when there is disruption, there often two trains departing to the same place at roughly the same time. The signaller will know which train they plan to send out first, but this information is almost never conveyed to people on the platform. It is incredibly annoying when you choose the wrong train and the other one pulls out in front of yours. I’ve even had instances where this has happened, and the later train has either been further delayed, or cancelled. Surely it’s not too much to know which train is departing first?

I suspect a lot of this is down to computer control, which someone seems to have introduced without giving much consideration to interaction with passengers (who are, after all, what the passenger railway is there for). A human will have an intention, which they can convey because they realise this might be helpful (OK - it may then have to change, but won't very often) - I don't think computers have "intentions" (nor a concept of being helpful).

As an example of the approach to information dissemination - during yesterday's unfortunate disruption at Bristol Temple Meads I overheard someone being given the explanation "the announcers have other things to do" in answer to the question of why no announcements were being made as to what was going on. Sorry - at times of disruption at major nodes, it is vital that there is someone whose ONLY responsibility is to get an overview of what's going on and explain it to passengers (even if that's only "we have no information to give at the moment - there will be an update in 5 minutes at the latest").

 

[Djgr]

In a nutshell, because the rail industry is so fragmented

 

[Taunton]

A particular current annoyance is a board message which states "for further information see website/journey planner", which when you have finally navigated to and found the relevant page, just shows exactly the same level of detail, sometimes word for word with what was on the notice.

 

[Dr Hoo]

…if it's not pointing to somewhere that gives full details at a glance that's not help either.

This sort of complex disruption involving various services and routes, diversions, replacement buses and so on can never be reduced to “full details at a glance”.

 

[43066]

what is wrong with the communication? It tells me my train will be distributed, may operate by a diversionary route and replacement buses will run.

it seems clear and straightforward and simple to understand.

I agree - the information seems to me to get the essentials across in a pretty effective way. Difficult to understand the criticism, really.

You assume that people have time on their hands to attend the information session.

It also clearly tells you to use the relevant online journey planners.

 

[TUC]

This sort of complex disruption involving various services and routes, diversions, replacement buses and so on can never be reduced to “full details at a glance”.

But it is possible to provide an easily available search facility to look, for example, for services between Brighouse and Leeds on specified time and date windows and generate a timetable, including RRBs from Huddersfield, together with suggestions that 'you may also wish to look for services from 'x'.

Those are very basic search system functionalities.

It is the job of the rail industry to make complex arrangements as simple and clear as possible, not to say 'it's complex' and leave it at that.

 

[noddingdonkey]

The one key piece of information that is missing is that many services will call at Brighouse instead. I recognise it is not every service, but to set this out with a qualification that passengers should check individual journeys would give a much clearer idea of which the key alternative station is.

I would suggest that a post from the TRU team is aimed at a different audience to one from a TOC or NRE.

There are good arguments for pointing people to journey planners or NRE's disruption page - which is mentioned in the social media post quoted - to get the specifics for their proposed journey rather than a catch all message like "services are using Brighouse instead":

1) While that's true, the timings won't be the same, so passengers still need to check the timetable
2) Although there will be buses to Brighouse vice the Bradford service, the TPE ones - which one would hope had more capacity and better connections - are going to Dewsbury
3) Other services (Wakefield, Penistone) have replacements and diversions that don't involve Brighouse
4) The messaging around Penistone Line is more complex with different arrangements for the first week.

Trying to get the detail across in a social media post is unrealistic, a broad message that points to the more comprehensive sources without implying things that are only half true is much better.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2025 ==

But it is possible to provide an easily available search facility to look, for example, for services between Brighouse and Leeds on specified time and date windows and generate a timetable, including RRBs from Huddersfield, together with suggestions that 'you may also wish to look for services from 'x'.

Those are very basic search system functionalities.

It is the job of the rail industry to make complex arrangements as simple and clear as possible, not to say 'it's complex' and leave it at that.

In what way does the journey planner on the National Rail Enquiries website not fulfil precisely that function?

 

[TUC]

I would suggest that a post from the TRU team is aimed at a different audience to one from a TOC or NRE.

There are good arguments for pointing people to journey planners or NRE's disruption page - which is mentioned in the social media post quoted - to get the specifics for their proposed journey rather than a catch all message like "services are using Brighouse instead":

1) While that's true, the timings won't be the same, so passengers still need to check the timetable
2) Although there will be buses to Brighouse vice the Bradford service, the TPE ones - which one would hope had more capacity and better connections - are going to Dewsbury
3) Other services (Wakefield, Penistone) have replacements and diversions that don't involve Brighouse
4) The messaging around Penistone Line is more complex with different arrangements for the first week.

Trying to get the detail across in a social media post is unrealistic, a broad message that points to the more comprehensive sources without implying things that are only half true is much better.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2025 ==

Remember that it is the TRU team who have chosen to make this social media post. When you say it is aimed at a different audience it, as I assume with many other people, just popped up on my Facebook feed. Those receiving it will rightly assume it to be public-facing.

As for messages to passengers, the four you give, appropriately rephrased, would seem to be the sort that would summarise the situation very well.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2025 ==

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2025 ==


In what way does the journey planner on the National Rail Enquiries website not fulfil precisely that function?

People will understandably be likely to go to the Disruptions tab on the NRE website. I've tried it and, even after several drop-down links and pages, the information is far from clear and obvious.

 

[noddingdonkey]

Indeed, but as somebody posting here I assume your browsing history indicates to the Facebook algorithm that you have more than a passing interest in railway matters and would be interested in a post from the TRU project, that it might not show to a more casual passenger.

 

[anothertyke]

Why not summarise it here? Five mins looking at the weekday rail times from Brighouse and the bus times from Huddersfield to Brighouse, Wakefield, Stalybridge and Manchester Airport calling at Stockport suggests it is not tremendously complicated to describe what is planned. Of course how well it works on the ground on the day, how much interchange time to allow etc is another thing.

 

[TUC]

Indeed, but as somebody posting here I assume your browsing history indicates to the Facebook algorithm that you have more than a passing interest in railway matters and would be interested in a post from the TRU project, that it might not show to a more casual passenger.

I understand algorithms but, given that the post includes lines such as ‘Customers are urged to plan their journeys ahead of time by visiting nationalrail.co.uk or their train operator's website’, it does suggest a public-facing intent.

 

[noddingdonkey]

I'm not suggesting that it's not public facing, just that the intent of this post is primarily to inform that section of the public who are interested in the progress of the project rather than intending travellers whose comms will come from the TOCs.

 

[Narrowgauge725]

I'm not suggesting that it's not public facing, just that the intent of this post is primarily to inform that section of the public who are interested in the progress of the project rather than intending travellers whose comms will come from the TOCs.

So are you saying that they can’t be bothered to inform those who might just need a train to or from Huddersfield during that time? For certain it upgrade site hasn’t been easy to work through either.