Why does FGW get so much bad press?

[jon0844]

For future station construction, where the exits are in relation to where the trains stop is something that should probably be factored in at the design stages if possible/applicable.

My solution for trains from Hatfield to/from London is to walk through the train.

 

[Monkey Magic]

FGW - it really depends on where you are on the network. Oxford for example has terrible platform staff, Reading seems to have pretty decent platform staff.

The big problem at the moment is all the engineering work at Reading, which in the evening can cause all sorts of problems and delays. Numerous times on the way back from London after 9pm you end up crawling to Reading, getting held outside.

The service would be better if the 180s were a little more reliable as well.

I'd take FGW over SWT any day though.

 

[Muzer]

I'd take FGW over SWT any day though.

Really? I always find there to be a dramatic difference between the level of quality of FGW and SWT, in favour of the latter, in pretty much all aspects. Perhaps because I'm on a major SWT route but on a very neglected (by the industry, not by the passengers of which there are quite a few!) FGW route. But I'd probably go as far as saying that I think SWT is one of the better TOCs. They keep everything clean, the staff always seem friendly, and they seem to be good at upgrading stations and refurbishing trains frequently. My only complaint with them is the whole ITSO thing, and since other operators haven't exactly done amazingly well at that either I can't really hold it against them.

 

[Monkey Magic]

I spent years travelling on SWT and they are far worse - in every respect.

The FGW turbos, 180s and HSTs are far cleaner and pleasant to be in than any of the SWT stock.

Even at Oxford which has perhaps the worst FGW platform staff I've come across they are still better than the worst SWT staff.

I've seen a number of SWT 'improvements' at my former local station - all of which seemed to be designed to make everything worse for the passenger.

Not once since I've started travelling on FGW have I thought 'I wish SWT were running this route'.

I'd even rank SWT below Virgin and XC.

 

[Muzer]

I spent years travelling on SWT and they are far worse - in every respect.

The FGW turbos, 180s and HSTs are far cleaner and pleasant to be in than any of the SWT stock.

I completely disagree - aside from the HSTs, FGW trains have hard seats and are usually filthy in my experience. True, my main experience has been on 158s and 150s, but I've also been on their Networkers and I've always been very underwhelmed. SWT, by comparison, keep both Desiros and Sprinters in a near-perfect condition.

Even at Oxford which has perhaps the worst FGW platform staff I've come across they are still better than the worst SWT staff.

Maybe this is true - but even at their small stations, SWT have very good ticket machines, so I haven't had to speak to a human in a SWT ticket office in years. The guards almost always seem nice and knowledgeable, though, for the times I've had to buy excesses.

I've seen a number of SWT 'improvements' at my former local station - all of which seemed to be designed to make everything worse for the passenger.

Aside from ticket barriers (which AFAIR is more a DfT thing, though do correct me if I'm wrong) and the associated closure of less-used exits; aside from this, I've not experienced anything of the sort. My former local station has been improved no end with extra buildings so that toilets can be on both platforms; the dot-matrix LED information screens are vastly superior to the dodgy, flickery old CRT monitors; they still use Phil Sayer a lot who is still IMHO the best automated announcer; the list goes on.

 

[Monkey Magic]

As I said at the start it depends where you are on the network.

Let's see. My SWT station

Travel centre - lost
Ticket windows - reduced down 2 resulting in huge queues all the time.
Local cafe - closed to make way for another chain cafe.
Toilets still the same as they ever were, you just have to pay for the privilege.

Ticket machines - great if you know how to use them and they are working.

8 car sets replaced by 4 car sets during the day resulting in chronic over-crowding.

Trains not cleaned so filthy by the end of the day. I don't know what services you are using but its none of the ones I've spent the last years travelling on.

SWT trains especially the new stock have that decaying fruit and veg smell which makes travelling in them very unpleasant. Almost as unpleasant as XC but not quite.

Who knows, maybe if I were commuting in Bristol or the Valleys I might have a different view but from my old part of the SWT network to my new part of the FGW network it is night and day.

 

[Muzer]

Hmm. I'd be interested to learn which part of the network you were on. I've been on the following a lot:

* West of England Main Line (mostly Andover to Salisbury)
* South Western Main Line (mostly Southampton Airport (Parkway) to Winchester, Basingstoke or London)
* "Salisbury 6" Salisbury/Southampton locals (Many journeys on this).

It's funny how horrible Romsey and the two local stations towards Salisbury (still operated by FGW despite barely being served by them) feel to be in compared to all the rest of the (SWT-owned) stations on that route. Well, they're beautiful buildings of course, but aside from the lovely little café in Romsey, there's just this weird feeling of neglect I get.

 

[pinguini]

I find FGW to be very expensive compared to the alternatives. This is from Worcester.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I have no problems with FGW - I think they've not been dealt the best of hands but they've done a good job with what they have; this might be controversial but I also think their HST refurbs have been one of the best post-privatisation. Whilst they may suffer peak overcrowding, a lot of it is out of their control to improve, and I can't imagine their criticism is any worse than that which gets thrown at Northern and EMT. Similarly, their stock quality internally is no worse than a good few other TOCs I've used. Further, their work to promote local railway lines and rover tickets are second to none. Northern come close but they are absolutely fantastic in this regard. Finally, they also seem very good for amending timetables - every 6 months there'll be a lot of little changes to peak services to better spread passengers and improve connectivity - they seem one of the best in this regard.

As I said at the start it depends where you are on the network.

Let's see. My SWT station

Travel centre - lost
Ticket windows - reduced down 2 resulting in huge queues all the time.
Local cafe - closed to make way for another chain cafe.
Toilets still the same as they ever were, you just have to pay for the privilege.
...

Hmm. I'd be interested to learn which part of the network you were on.

Sounds a bit like Guildford. The travel centre became an M&S and there aren't too many stations outside of London (on SWT) that charge for toilets. Last time I was there there were 5 windows I think, but that could easily have been down from 7 as it was rather new. If not Guildford it could be Richmond, but I don't recall that ever having a travel centre.

It's funny how horrible Romsey and the two local stations towards Salisbury (still operated by FGW despite barely being served by them) feel to be in compared to all the rest of the (SWT-owned) stations on that route. Well, they're beautiful buildings of course, but aside from the lovely little café in Romsey, there's just this weird feeling of neglect I get.

I thought Romsey was in a bad way too when I was there last summer - the subway especially. Agree though, lovely cafe. I believe it, Mottisfont & Dunbridge's and Dean's transfer to SWT is part of the next Great Western franchise, but I'm not 100% sure.

 

[jimm]

The service would be better if the 180s were a little more reliable as well.

The 180s have been working virtually every booked service for the past two months since the return to action of 106 after some serious remedial work, prior to that, FGW were unsurprisingly struggling to turn out four sets each day with only four available in the first place for many weeks.

I find FGW to be very expensive compared to the alternatives. This is from Worcester.

Not this again - assuming you mean alternatives to London, Virgin have shed-loads of seats to try to fill somehow between Birmingham and London, so of course they offer very low fares at times. FGW don't have shedloads of seats to fill from Worcester and also have to make allowances for custom from stations en route to Oxford and between Oxford and London. Off-peak from Worcester towards Oxford and London you can use the Network Card and Cotswold Line Railcard - off-peak local fares using the latter are about 40 per cent of the peak figure. Do Chiltern and Virgin offer an off-peak (Saver) return fare on a train to London at 7.30am? FGW do from Worcester.

If the other alternative you refer to is driving to Warwick Parkway, Network Cards don't apply there - only as far as Banbury on Chiltern - and I never cease to be amazed by the number of people from Worcestershire who claim this is some great time and money-saving way to go but never seem to take account of the driving time to get to and from Warwick, nor the cost of fuel, nor parking - £7. FGW charges £3.80 in the peak at Cotswold stations.

 

[Hellfire]

Do Chiltern and Virgin offer an off-peak (Saver) return fare on a train to London at 7.30am? FGW do from Worcester
.

Virgin allow people to use off peak tickets on peak morning services to London from the North West if you have a railcard. I travel Preston to London on the 0656 every week on a £54 off peak return ticket backed by a senior railcard. I also come back on a peak service. I don't know of any other TOC that offers this but I stand to be corrected.

When First were threatening to run the WCML they had to put out a public statement assuring passengers they would continue to offer this concession.

 

[Captain Chaos]

Sounds a bit like Guildford. The travel centre became an M&S and there aren't too many stations outside of London (on SWT) that charge for toilets. Last time I was there there were 5 windows I think, but that could easily have been down from 7 as it was rather new. If not Guildford it could be Richmond, but I don't recall that ever having a travel centre.

Pretty sure it is Guildford he is describing. The cafe was a locally run cafe. Was closed and replaced with an Upper Crust (I think). I have never been there since it changed as I don't like Upper Crust. M&S replaced the travel centre. The toilets are indeed exactly the same. But now you have to pay to use them.

 

[jon0844]

When First were threatening to run the WCML they had to put out a public statement assuring passengers they would continue to offer this concession.

Threatening?

At the time, they'd won the franchise.

 

[jimm]

Virgin allow people to use off peak tickets on peak morning services to London from the North West if you have a railcard. I travel Preston to London on the 0656 every week on a £54 off peak return ticket backed by a senior railcard. I also come back on a peak service. I don't know of any other TOC that offers this but I stand to be corrected.

When First were threatening to run the WCML they had to put out a public statement assuring passengers they would continue to offer this concession.

From Worcester anyone can get the off-peak fare at 7.30am, not just railcard holders, and it is valid in the afternoon peak for return journeys from London to Cotswold Line stations west of Oxford. Off-peak day tickets (and Network Cards) kick in on the 08.26 from Foregate Street to Paddington.

People in Worcester who complain about FGW fares also seem to have a peculiar blind spot about what they would pay from other FGW stations that weren't in the former NSE area - Cheltenham to Paddington at 07.30 costs £152 for an anytime return.

Even when the Cheltenham off-peak kicks in, that is £60, compared with £49.50 from Worcester (on a via Evesham ticket) and there is no off-peak day fare from Cheltenham, just a super off-peak at £48.50, while Worcester passengers pay £40.50 for an OP day (though it's not valid for a return journey in the peak period) and you can use a Network card, bringing it down to £26.75 and an off-peak down to £32.65 - and the railcard offers discounts for people travelling with you as well.

And this is supposed to be "very expensive" for a 240-mile round trip? And all are walk-up fares, not advances tying you to particular trains.

 

[bnm]

and the two local stations towards Salisbury (still operated by FGW despite barely being served by them) feel to be in compared to all the rest of the (SWT-owned) stations on that route. Well, they're beautiful buildings of course, but aside from the lovely little café in Romsey, there's just this weird feeling of neglect I get.

I presume the two local stations you are referring to are Dean and Mottisfont & Dunbridge. I'm led to believe (can't remember where I heard/read it though) that whilst they are both still managed by FGW, this is in name only. SWT have taken over responsibility for routine cleaning and maintenance.

I'm open to correction though.

 

[Monkey Magic]

It is indeed Guildford.

The ticket office at the back also had its opening hours cut right back so it is only staffed in the morning. In the past it was staffed and those working there were very helpful in helping you to get the best/cheapest ticket. As were the people in the travel centre.

Now two ticket machines - normally with huge queues. Allow yourself a good 15 mins to get a ticket in the morning.

Although there are ticket windows open - they serve as the travel centre and there are rarely more than 2 open at a time.

The network travelled on - lets see - Portsmouth line to London and also down to Portsmouth, I also have to travel to Southampton and Weymouth. If you want a god forsaken station then Weymouth is a good example. Spent several years travelling on the line down to Exeter as well (both before and after the 159s). I use the Reading line and the London Road line as well.

I've been using the lines since pre-NSE days so I've seen various different shades of 'management' of the route and SWT have done little to improve anything for the passenger.

SWT are a bit like Virgin, very good at self-promotion but not so good at actually providing good services.

Jimm - I'll take your word for it that the 180s are reliable. They do seem to be appearing more often on the services that they are supposed to. There was a period in the autumn where more often than not you'd end up with a Turbo instead.

 

[pinguini]

The 180s have been working virtually every booked service for the past two months since the return to action of 106 after some serious remedial work, prior to that, FGW were unsurprisingly struggling to turn out four sets each day with only four available in the first place for many weeks.



Not this again - assuming you mean alternatives to London, Virgin have shed-loads of seats to try to fill somehow between Birmingham and London, so of course they offer very low fares at times. FGW don't have shedloads of seats to fill from Worcester and also have to make allowances for custom from stations en route to Oxford and between Oxford and London. Off-peak from Worcester towards Oxford and London you can use the Network Card and Cotswold Line Railcard - off-peak local fares using the latter are about 40 per cent of the peak figure. Do Chiltern and Virgin offer an off-peak (Saver) return fare on a train to London at 7.30am? FGW do from Worcester.

If the other alternative you refer to is driving to Warwick Parkway, Network Cards don't apply there - only as far as Banbury on Chiltern - and I never cease to be amazed by the number of people from Worcestershire who claim this is some great time and money-saving way to go but never seem to take account of the driving time to get to and from Warwick, nor the cost of fuel, nor parking - £7. FGW charges £3.80 in the peak at Cotswold stations.

Yes, this again (?).

Your average person couldn't care less that Virgin has so many more available seats per hour than FGW. The fact of the matter is that FGW are more expensive than the alternatives.

That's what it comes down to for the people the railways run for - the cost of the ticket. So no point burying your head in the sand or making the situation appear different because of ASK etc, FGW costs more.

 

[jon0844]

If FGW has now got the 180s working reliably, then all credit to them.

 

[Captain Chaos]

It seems we have. Haven't heard of any 180 failures for a few weeks now. Quite glad that one of my usual trains into work is a 180 now as I haven't been on them since they came back to us. I've always liked them tbh.

Having said that, I've probably cursed them now!

 

[jimm]

Yes, this again (?).

Your average person couldn't care less that Virgin has so many more available seats per hour than FGW. The fact of the matter is that FGW are more expensive than the alternatives.

That's what it comes down to for the people the railways run for - the cost of the ticket. So no point burying your head in the sand or making the situation appear different because of ASK etc, FGW costs more.

My head is nowhere near any sand, thanks. And what on earth do you mean by "ASK etc"?

If "the fact of the matter is that FGW are more expensive" let's have some figures so you can show us factually - rather than just asserting it - just how much cheaper these alternatives are than the figures I gave for the FGW fares. You say it is true, so demonstrate that it is.

Your average person probably doesn't want to spend ages faffing around with online booking engines to find a cheap Virgin fare and splitting tickets in Birmingham. They may also value the flexibility that the FGW tickets offer, versus the inflexiblity of an advance.

And the idea that the sole criterion people apply to a rail journey is the cost of the fare is nonsense. A great many, especially older passengers, value through trains - particularly in my experience if it avoids the need to change at Birmingham New Street. And they may not have a choice of routes to make their journey in the first place, so they have to pay the going rate, whatever it may be.

 

[pinguini]

ASK means Available Seat Kilometeres - sorry you're not familiar with this. It may not be a common term in the railway industry. Perhaps it should be, as apparently it makes a big difference...

As for an example, take my journey I am making today. FGW wants £38.60 for an off peak return. I have a "choice" of a 1pm return journey, or a 7pm return journey. Hardly that flexible, is it? It is so inflexible I went ahead with advance tickets (combination of Chiltern, London Midland and Southern). £26.00 return. Takes as much time as going directly on FGW, unbelievably. Relative saving of about a third, with hardly any less flexibility.

 

[jimm]

ASK means Available Seat Kilometeres - sorry you're not familiar with this. It may not be a common term in the railway industry. Perhaps it should be, as apparently it makes a big difference...

As for an example, take my journey I am making today. FGW wants £38.60 for an off peak return. I have a "choice" of a 1pm return journey, or a 7pm return journey. Hardly that flexible, is it? It is so inflexible I went ahead with advance tickets (combination of Chiltern, London Midland and Southern). £26.00 return. Takes as much time as going directly on FGW, unbelievably. Relative saving of about a third, with hardly any less flexibility.

No it's not a common railway term, as it's airline jargon, I now discover.

Your journey would be what, exactly, and at what times? How did you book it? On the day or well in advance? A single transaction or separate ones? It's a bit hard to know what you're talking about if you don't give basic information like that. If it was multiple transactions, that would be well outside the realm of your "average person".

A Cotswold Line off-peak return - if you actually mean an off-peak return as opposed to an off-peak day return, which is a different ticket - is simply not time-restricted for travel back from London on FGW in the way you are suggesting.

And miss a train along with way with your advances and wave goodbye to your 'saving'.

I did not say it was impossible to save money compared with FGW fares - but for your next trick, perhaps you can demonstrate a way, travelling to London in the peak, leaving Worcester at about 7.30am and reaching London before 10am, either using rail via Birmingham, or driving to Warwick to use Chiltern, and returning from London at about 17.15, to beat the FGW off-peak return of £49.50 on the 07.32 to Paddington, valid for return on any train.

Fuel to get to Warwick and back home plus parking will account for £20 before you even set foot on a train (never mind 80 miles' depreciation on the car) - and Chiltern don't offer their £6 singles until the end of the morning. Nor are they available on a return journey just after 17.00.