Why does FGW get so much bad press?

[jnjkerbin]

Ok, this may be a difficult question...

Following on from the FGW delay: "Never apologise, never explain" thread, it seems to me that First Great Western, and more generally First seem to get more abuse than most other train operating companies.

Having a look at NR's performance page, it shows FGW's moving annual average as 88.9%. Admittedly, this is 2% below the National average, but if you look at the table, this is still above Crosscountry (87.0%), East Coast (83.9), and the "much loved", yet bottom of the table (my own judgement reserved) Virgin Trains (83.5%). Other non Inter City operators below FGW are FCC (88.3%), London Midland (85.8%) and Southern (87.9%).

When I have travelled with FGW (I am not a commuter, although I generally travel with them 4-5 times a year), I have to say that from my records () they are slightly better in terms of reliability than the NR figures show (in my experience!)

So they are by far not the worst in terms of reliability, but what about Customer Service?

I have been delayed a few times by FGW, most memorably for me in August 2012, when I was travelling from Taunton to Paddington. I arrived at Taunton 15 minutes before departure and the train was running 5 minutes late. This was (according to the announcements) due to "emergency services dealing with an incident". The Train manager later informed us a passenger had been taken ill at Truro, not something a reasonable person could attribute to the TOC. Just as we were approaching Westbury. our first stop, the dreaded announcement of "Would the Train Manager please contact the driver" came on and the train came to a halt about a kilometre outside of the station. Very quickly the TM came on over the tannoy, telling us there was a fault with he train and that they were working to resolve this. Over the next hour came plenty of announcements with helpful information. About an hour after we had come to a stand, we crawled into Westbury, where the train was terminated.

The TM told us that a fast train was calling additionally here to allow us to join that train. The train left about 10 minutes after it was meant to have passed through and was standing room only, although not jammed. Because of this delay we were delayed by a couple of slow trains en route to London because of losing our path but we arrived at Paddington 28 minutes late, or 1 hour 40 minutes later than the original service. The TM of the new train was very helpful and staff were waiting to meet the train at Paddington.

In summary, FGW were making the best of an unfortunate series of events.

The fact is that the majority of these delays are dealt with professionally as in the case of what I experienced. It seems that the occasional bad service, gets reported and amplified far more than their good service.

Anyway, after all that, my question is what is it that makes FGW, a generally good company, so unpopular? If Virgin operated the GW franchise would commuters suddenly like it?

 

[willc789]

Personally I think its more in the brand image they cultivate. I think the main reason for why folk portray FGW and other First brands as the devil incarnate compared to Virgin is due to the brand image they cultivate. Whilst First image of blue and barbie pink is certainly professional and the media open and honest, it lacks something of a soul compared to Virgin (and it pains me to say it!).

If you look at the twitter feeds of both companies, it shows how a personal touch and friendly response can immediately turn an agitated passenger into one who is content to wait an additional 30 mins due to a delay etc.

 

[richw]

I have never been able to fault FGW, and from my experiences have always been one of the better TOCS I have used. Without a doubt FGW have the politest and most knowledgable staff of any TOC I have used.

 

[shedman]

Its all about brand. As has been said very few slate Virgin and it was the same with GNER

 

[Yew]

I think its because people make assumptions, first also run FCC, with their prosecution happy RPI's, and a lot of midrange bus companies.

Very loosely, virgin can be approximated as the premium brand of Stagecoach rail (I know its not quite right, but the less prestigious franchises are under the stagecoach brand) If FGW was branded differently, to remove the connotations of FCC and the like. Then I feel the brand could be better portrayed within the media.

 

[tsr]

It's possibly due to the overcrowding and lack of perceived (and actual) customer support on various branches, which get left to their own devices, even in disruption. These branches may have services amongst the most overcrowded in their areas, but they may not seem to get a look-in by anyone "high up".

Indeed, to take one example, I have had to actively persuade FGW to so much as mention major disruption on the North Downs Line on their website and Twitter feeds, as they are rather focussed on the GWML at Reading (fair enough, but they do also have commitments elsewhere!). This has been successful but great effort was needed to provide satisfactory customer service on two or three occasions recently (well, at least - maybe more) where passengers were inconvenienced by a lack of correct, timely information.

 

[Antman]

I have never been able to fault FGW, and from my experiences have always been one of the better TOCS I have used. Without a doubt FGW have the politest and most knowledgable staff of any TOC I have used.

I have always found FGW very good although I'm only an occasional user, I've been less impressed with FCC............as for Virgin

 

[455driver]

FGW are much more likely to hold a connection (even holding long distant trains) than most other TOCs, they are much more passenger focused than the other long distance operators.

There is nothing worse than being on a late running train and seeing your connection leaving from another platform on time.

 

[SS4]

I have been delayed a few times by FGW, most memorably for me in August 2012, when I was travelling from Taunton to Paddington. I arrived at Taunton 15 minutes before departure and the train was running 5 minutes late. This was (according to the announcements) due to "emergency services dealing with an incident". The Train manager later informed us a passenger had been taken ill at Truro, not something a reasonable person could attribute to the TOC. Just as we were approaching Westbury. our first stop, the dreaded announcement of "Would the Train Manager please contact the driver" came on and the train came to a halt about a kilometre outside of the station. Very quickly the TM came on over the tannoy, telling us there was a fault with he train and that they were working to resolve this. Over the next hour came plenty of announcements with helpful information. About an hour after we had come to a stand, we crawled into Westbury, where the train was terminated.

How many reasonable people do you know when it comes to the railways? You can't explain the illogical

 

[Requeststop]

Ok, this may be a difficult question...

Following on from the FGW delay: "Never apologise, never explain" thread, it seems to me that First Great Western, and more generally First seem to get more abuse than most other train operating companies.

Having a look at NR's performance page, it shows FGW's moving annual average as 88.9%. Admittedly, this is 2% below the National average, but if you look at the table, this is still above Crosscountry (87.0%), East Coast (83.9), and the "much loved", yet bottom of the table (my own judgement reserved) Virgin Trains (83.5%). Other non Inter City operators below FGW are FCC (88.3%), London Midland (85.8%) and Southern (87.9%).

When I have travelled with FGW (I am not a commuter, although I generally travel with them 4-5 times a year), I have to say that from my records () they are slightly better in terms of reliability than the NR figures show (in my experience!)

So they are by far not the worst in terms of reliability, but what about Customer Service?

I have been delayed a few times by FGW, most memorably for me in August 2012, when I was travelling from Taunton to Paddington. I arrived at Taunton 15 minutes before departure and the train was running 5 minutes late. This was (according to the announcements) due to "emergency services dealing with an incident". The Train manager later informed us a passenger had been taken ill at Truro, not something a reasonable person could attribute to the TOC. Just as we were approaching Westbury. our first stop, the dreaded announcement of "Would the Train Manager please contact the driver" came on and the train came to a halt about a kilometre outside of the station. Very quickly the TM came on over the tannoy, telling us there was a fault with he train and that they were working to resolve this. Over the next hour came plenty of announcements with helpful information. About an hour after we had come to a stand, we crawled into Westbury, where the train was terminated.

The TM told us that a fast train was calling additionally here to allow us to join that train. The train left about 10 minutes after it was meant to have passed through and was standing room only, although not jammed. Because of this delay we were delayed by a couple of slow trains en route to London because of losing our path but we arrived at Paddington 28 minutes late, or 1 hour 40 minutes later than the original service. The TM of the new train was very helpful and staff were waiting to meet the train at Paddington.

In summary, FGW were making the best of an unfortunate series of events.

The fact is that the majority of these delays are dealt with professionally as in the case of what I experienced. It seems that the occasional bad service, gets reported and amplified far more than their good service.

Anyway, after all that, my question is what is it that makes FGW, a generally good company, so unpopular? If Virgin operated the GW franchise would commuters suddenly like it?

I am so pleased that you posted the above. I too have never had a major problem with FGW. I admit to having very negative thoughts about Virgin and the Virgin group as a whole and personally I detest how Branson whines and moans and cries at every opportunity when a decision is made against his companies.

I was wondering though if FGW was your local/regional TOC?

If Virgin took over the FGW franchise. I'd be driving around the south west, but I don't think that Virgin would be interested in all the multiple local services they'd have to run if they should want to bid for. They are primarily, a long distance operator.

 

[northwichcat]

If you look at what the complaints relating to FCC and FGW relate to they problems exclusive to those operators but if you only take in to account the operators who serve London then there probably isn't another operator with the same problems so the likes of the Daily Mail goes on about FCC and FGW because their journalists don't have a clue what it's like to travel with Merseyrail, Northern or TPE.

The way the media went on about the 142s that FGW subleased made it sound like they'd be sitting around out-of-use in sidings for years as Northern had scrapped them all in favour of newer trains.

 

[jnjkerbin]

I am so pleased that you posted the above. I too have never had a major problem with FGW. I admit to having very negative thoughts about Virgin and the Virgin group as a whole and personally I detest how Branson whines and moans and cries at every opportunity when a decision is made against his companies.

I was wondering though if FGW was your local/regional TOC?

If Virgin took over the FGW franchise. I'd be driving around the south west, but I don't think that Virgin would be interested in all the multiple local services they'd have to run if they should want to bid for. They are primarily, a long distance operator.

No I'm a Southeastern chap myself. (They also are not as bad as you may be led to believe!)

It's just that with various postings/news articles I was wondering what the media had against them.

I must admit I've never travelled on Virgin (but I do have a burning hatred of Richard Branson!)

 

[SWT_USER]

Most complaints on my commute should actually be towards Network Rail and their complete inability to make the signals at Hayes work properly for more than a week at a time. Of course the passengers blame FGW...

 

[PHILIPE]

FGWs Performance is badly hit due to frequent signalling problems between Paddington and Reading, which although debited to Network Rail, does give the wrong impression so far as FGW are concerned. On the start of the franchise in December 2006 they recieved, quite rightly at the time, a lot of bad press due to shortage of units (put into store as not required for the franchise which seriously under-estimated the requirements), maintenance problems due to pulling out of Canton and moving to St Philips Marsh before facilities had bee put into place there. However, new blood was brought in to run the Company, and they turned it all around but unfortunately "mud sticks".

 

[willc789]

Id have to certainly agree that when it goes wrong with FGW, it tends to really go wrong! Even the most hardened commuters between Reading and Paddington dub the route as 'running the gauntlet!' Quite comical really but you can see there point. I do sometimes wonder what FGW's performance figures would be like excluding the Reading-Paddington stretch?

 

[alex17595]

FGW could also seem out of date - seems to be lots of problems with HSTs developing faults and most of their trains are deisels from BR areas.
there is practically no electrification of the areas they serve (apart from Weymouth and Brighton routes)
The mainly run off routes with doubled track at best, making it hard to get around problems. on the single line branches there is no way to get around them.

 

[Aldaniti]

Very loosely, virgin can be approximated as the premium brand of Stagecoach rail (I know its not quite right, but the less prestigious franchises are under the stagecoach brand)

Mmmm. Give me a SWT 159 over a Pendolino or Voyager any day!

 

[anthony263]

FGW could also seem out of date - seems to be lots of problems with HSTs developing faults and most of their trains are deisels from BR areas.
there is practically no electrification of the areas they serve (apart from Weymouth and Brighton routes)
The mainly run off routes with doubled track at best, making it hard to get around problems. on the single line branches there is no way to get around them.

Hopefully this image will change when the new IEP's are introduced and refurbished class 165/166's move to Bristol etc where they will be like new trains to the locals

 

[Manchester77]

I too haven't had a bad experience with FGW. I've always found staff friendly and happy to help. During disruption last year the train manager onboard the HST was happy to give out water and keep us all informed.
Up north I've found FTPE get alot of bad press. The way some people go on you would think that they're using a wooden shed on wheels.
I think a lot of it comes from if a passenger can't get a seat then everything will irritate them. Idk

 

[CC 72100]

No problems with FGW from me. As for why the get bad press, two words:

Reading commuters.

 

[transmanche]

If Virgin took over the FGW franchise. I'd be driving around the south west, but I don't think that Virgin would be interested in all the multiple local services they'd have to run if they should want to bid for. They are primarily, a long distance operator.

I suspect that if Virgin did take over the GW franchise; the Virgin brand would be used on the InterCity services and a (Stagecoach) Great Western Trains brand (or similar) used on the rest.

 

[F Great Eastern]

The fact is though people praise Virgin for all their new trains bu they were totally funded by the taxpayer and the whole line was upgraded at no cost to them.

First have had a very raw deal on some of their franchises and get a bad rep, normally about overcrowding even though there is little they can do about it.

First Great Western
At the start of the franchise were made to cut services as part of the franchise, clearly did not have a lot of rolling stock but had to plough on anyway. There were some issues with performance however that were within the control of the company and new blood was rightfully brought in when the existing management team were clearly failing.

Now the main problems are overcrowding and infrastructure, neither of which they have much control over. The Reading project will help but is not going to happen overnight. They've converted buffet rolling stock to add an extra coach on to HST's but there is little more they can do.

The government are years behind on IEP and have messed around with numerous DMU orders or cascades which were ordered then cancelled a short while later, meaning that FGW has been stuck with what it has and has had no other option, yet the average commuter between Reading feels they can just acquire a train off the streets and run it.

First Capital Connect
Well this was a neglected franchise before they took over and now is better in my view despite the fact that it still clearly has problems. Again projects have been delayed by years regarding to Thameslink and rolling stock is now running many years late, which is purely down to the DFT, despite this FCC have got hold of every possible bit of rolling stock they can and people still moan because the average commuter feels they can just acquire a train off the streets and run it..

Transpennine Express
This franchise has seen huge growth since it started and has become a victim of it's own success. Once again the DFT didn't allow the company to order a fourth car for the 185's which were very much needed, and then just to make things worse asked them to run the Scottish services without giving them any more rolling stock, making the main services already overcrowded even more so whilst other TOC's sit on spare capacity.

The average person then moans at the company feeling they can just add another few carriages off the street to solve all the problems and it will be sorted out.

Now compare that to Virgin who have got investment in infrastructure, hordes of new trains yet their performance is still under some of the above franchises who are running far older stock, on far worse infrastructure and the number of passengers being served dwarfs capacity.

Running VT is damn easy when they have been handed all that, whilst other franchises are sick of broken promises and cancelled rolling stock orders, other rolling stock orders running years behind, others being cut back, infrastructure improvements subject to continued delay and with all that they are then imposing extra services on TOC's that already don't have enough stock to run the existing ones.

So no, I don't blame FGW and they're doing a bloody good job in the circumstances, and I don't blame them for not taking the previous declined extended term because quite simply the government haven't done their bit in the area.

 

[SkinnyDave]

It also can't be easy running an Intercity franchise alongside what is two suburban franchises all under one umbrella.
You would never see a Virgin branded 150 sitting ready to rumble out of Bristol

 

[Requeststop]

I suspect that if Virgin did take over the GW franchise; the Virgin brand would be used on the InterCity services and a (Stagecoach) Great Western Trains brand (or similar) used on the rest.

I suppose you are right but would it be allowed under franchise rules?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

FGW could also seem out of date - seems to be lots of problems with HSTs developing faults and most of their trains are deisels from BR areas.
there is practically no electrification of the areas they serve (apart from Weymouth and Brighton routes)
The mainly run off routes with doubled track at best, making it hard to get around problems. on the single line branches there is no way to get around them.

FGW do not operate any electrified routes at present. The only route under wires is the Heathrow Connect/Express.

 

[Daimler]

I was under the impression that they had undergone something of an image turnaround in recent years, being voted the 'most improved franchise' a couple of years ago (I forget exactly when).

Certainly, as others have commented, they had a - well deserved - poor reputation at the start of the Greater Western franchise, but things certainly seem to have improved since then. I myself use their HSTs a couple of times per week, as well as for leisure at other times, and would rate them as one of the best TOCs - their staff are excellent and often seem to go out of their way to be helpful and friendly, their (intercity) trains and stations usually pretty immaculate, and timekeeping generally decent too - no complaints!

 

[Manchester77]

I suppose you are right but would it be allowed under franchise rules?

Probably it'd be like a sub-brand

 

[transmanche]

Personally I think its more in the brand image they cultivate.

I think you're spot on.

First is the only one of the buscos that have linked their branded identity with every one of their franchises. First Great Eastern, First Great Western, First North Western, First Transpennine Express, First Capital Connect, First Hull Trains.

Stagecoach: The SWT/EMT 'express' livery is obviously very similar to the Stagecoach bus livery, but they haven't linked their franchises with the Stagecoach name (other than in the early days when the Stagecoach SWT name was used).

National Express: Until they won the East Coast franchise, they didn't use the NatEx brand identity or name on their franchises (or on local buses). So most people would never have had a clue that they were involved in Valley Lines, Wales & West, Wessex Trains, WAGN or Central Trains.

Go-Ahead: As part of Go-Via, they've never linked their franchises with a group brand identity.

Arriva: Started off using the group name (ATN, ATW) but dropped that for CrossCountry and subsequent aqcuisitions.​

So if your local First bus company provides a poor service, then this will colour your opinion of FGW. Or if you have a run-in with an aggressive RPI on FCC, this will make you less well disposed to travelling with FTPE.

Obviously First wanted positive brand associations - but the downside of that is of one part of the group under-delivers, a negative brand association will spread.

 

[alex17595]

FGW do not operate any electrified routes at present. The only route under wires is the Heathrow Connect/Express.

only
-PAD-airport jct. Overhead line
-Weymouth-Upwey 3rd rail
-Southampton-Brighton 3rd rail
-about a mile out of reading.


the only real possible electric route would be Southampton to Brighton down the west coastway line, this would be pointless as they would have to be kept in this small corner of FGW territory. no point having depots and things for little use route. 1tph I believe?

 

[Temple Meads]

I travel with FGW in a mainly leisure capacity between two and four times a week, which over the course of a year means a lot of mileage and a lot of services, however I have only had two serious issues that can be attributed to them in years of the above pattern.

Normally the staff are courteous and knowledgeable, and the trains fairly clean and tidy.

I think part of the problem is that FGW have a very large and diverse area under their control, and it's not their fault that they haven't got newer and longer trains, so given the challenges they face, they do an admirable job

 

[Yew]

If the meridians where not ordered, i imagine EMT would be a similar franchise to FGW, ie; mainly BR era stock, with a mix of intercity and rural routes. It would have been interesting to see how they would have compared.