Why does everybody hate XC?

[MidnightFlyer]

Just reading through these pages, you just get that feeling. is it the stock, the timetabling, the on-board stuff, or just Arriva?

 

[222007]

I think a lot of it is down to the voyagers. Virgin became a victim of there own success really. I mean any service that double in frequency is bound to be more appealing to people. Where as befor you had 1 train and hour you now have 2. The voyagers are good trains but often overcrowded had they been 6 or 7 carraiges it would be better. But Arriva have to work with what they got Arriva didnt order the voyager VIRGIN did. Removing the shop was also not popular with some however i argued the point that if the train was that full even when the shop was there people could not have made it down the train to get there.

Personally as a TOC i think us guys and gals on XC do a good job Dont blame us for Virgins errors

 

[furryfeet]

Primarily the prices !

Overall the whole thing as well - overcrowded, smelly voyagers make an unpleasant travelling experience.

OK Arrivas management did not order the voyagers initially, but they are responsible for the way they are used now - why they have HST's sat in sidings instead of being used on the busy services baffles me, but this has been covered in other threads.

The bottom line is that, until Arrivas fares are set at a reasonable levelespecially the walk on fares, then I will not use Arriva, since I cannot afford it. I will either use a competing TOC e.g. virgin between stoke and stockport, or use the car.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Also you can't have weekend first upgrades on advance -you've got to pay the more expenses walk-on std fare first, then your £20 or whatever. If I was PM, iw would be illegal for Voyagers to work IC stuff over 2 and 1/2 hours - horrible, horrible creatures!

 

[ivanhoe]

A bandwagon forms and some enthusiats will join it for their own reasons which sometimes are for reasons such as disliking Arriva. I have used XC on a number of occasions and they have been okay. However, I have never used them for a truelly Cross Country journey, nor do I commute with them. Therefore, as I have had no problems, I have no issues with them.

XC as a franchise, is a difficult concept . It is many things to many people and perhaps is a victim of it's own success. It was always the cinderalla in the old days of Inter City and it is still a cinderalla now but it has a new ball gown (Voyagers). Depending where you live, it gives good opportunities for passengers to travel long distances without the need to go through London.

Could it do things better? Current Government Financial restraints would suggest not. Are their staff any better/ worse than other operators? I don't believe it to be the case. I believe they do a decent job in the current structure but we would all like them to do more.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

It went bad when they introduced Voyagers, and Op Princess was over-amboitious. XC went worse when they took out shops to put in bike stores, and when they put on super-nice HSTs, then take all but one out of use and put Voyagers back on. (that bit about the HSTs may be wrong -- not my area of rail interest!)

 

[Greenback]

The main problems with the XC franchise are the high fares, even for advance tickets, and the design of the Voyagers, There is insufficient luggae space, and some seats do not give you a view out of the window. However, I personally prefer the seats and colour scheme inside a Voyager to FGW's HST's in the South West, where I have recently travelled on both!

I understand that my views are completely subjective and not shared by everyone! But, providing I can sit in a seat with a decent window view, I find them far less claustrophobic than the HST's.

I think many enthusiasts dislike XC because they dislike Arriva in general, they would prefer 'proper trains' to be used, and because of the appalling greed shown in their fares policy!

 

[87015]

If you think its bad now, wait until revenue support kicks in (next year?) Promising to make the scrimping at NXEA look like a positive investment strategy!

You ain't seen nothing yet...

 

[MidnightFlyer]

The main problems with the XC franchise are the high fares, even for advance tickets, and the design of the Voyagers, There is insufficient luggae space, and some seats do not give you a view out of the window.

On a Voyager in Penzance one summer heading to Newton Abbot (fairly quiet actually). It was for Glasgow via Leeds. This couple had reserved airlines seats in standard. Penzance-Edinburgh. Next to a window made of cream coloured plastic. Eventually they moved. Don't blame them. That would send you crazy. Not too hard to align seats to windows - 60 year old trains can do it!

 

[Greenback]

We did have our reserved seats next to a pillar on one jounrey. Fortunately, we were at the end of the train, it wa sin the evening and there were other spare seats to be had, so we were OK! I wouldn;t have wanted to miss out on the lovely Cornish landscape!

 

[mumrar]

It went bad when they introduced Voyagers, and Op Princess was over-amboitious. XC went worse when they took out shops to put in bike stores, and when they put on super-nice HSTs, then take all but one out of use and put Voyagers back on. (that bit about the HSTs may be wrong -- not my area of rail interest!)

XC use 2 HSTs Mon-Thu and 3 on Fri. On Sat and Sun it varies and is sometimes up to 4. I'm intrigued by your comment about when Voyagers came along. I can find, without looking too hard, plenty of vidoes of failed 47s, 86s and even the hallowed HSTs being dragged by all manner of freight locos running hideous amounts of hours late. The counter to this will no doubt be 'poor maintenance', but a clapped out 47 or AC electric will always need more frequent maintenance than a newer DMU. And at least Bombardier can switch engines out on Voyagers very simply and keep the unit running, don't think it's quite so simple on any of the locos mentioned, especially 86s. People also lambast XC for no longer running the truly random trains you used to get under BR, such as a Fishguard to Dundee via Swindon and Preston (I'm deliberately using hyperbole). But under privatisation, where a TOC can only call on it's own traincrew, rather than a nationwide pool of route/traction knowledge, that's never going to be practical. Think of all the route learning and refreshing crews would need to do. XC is a franchise that will constantly be under change and getting remoulded to the needs of the customer, but sadly rolling stock is the most expensive variable in all of this, and at these austere times there's little chance of that changing any time soon.

 

[rail-britain]

I wouldn't say "everyone" hates XC
However I suspect many people are disappointed at the experience

Even my relatives asked me on completing their journey what kind of train they were on, as it didn't compare to a similar journey they made on BR 20 years ago, and was it a replacement due to a train failure!?!
After asking what the train was like I confirmed it was indeed a Voyager, to which they were shocked this was the typical type of train and service

When I pointed out that some services are still operated by HSTs, they asked why aren't these used on the longer services, and the discussion went on for some time
All of this put them off, ending at the point where they sadly confirmed next time they would probably fly (and I suspect many more people do this now, after travelling on such a long journey by XC)

I made a few journeys last year
However, where possible I travelled on the HST (Edinburgh - Newcastle)
The rest of the journeys were simply link services and so did not bother me too much
Thankfully, all of these were on Voyagers (Birmingham - Bristol / Reading - Birmingham) and not on Turbostars

On all these services I found the First Class service was very similar to Virgin Trains (for a Voyager)
A dedicated host offering drinks and snacks
However on the HST the host was really struggling, I never found out what the issue was but they served Standard passengers before First Class (so it was just as well the train was delayed, otherwise I don't think drinks would have been offered)

As for the fares
The Voyagers are some of the most expensive trains to operate in the UK
This cost inevitably now has to be passed on to passengers
Equally, the fares reflect the bids made for the franchises and the costs incurred in this process
National Express learnt the hard way from this, with East Coast
Virgin Rail Group have also now realised this model no longer works, their renegotiation was slightly more successful but they appear to be preparing to also lose the West Coast franchise (due to the level of rebate that has been decreasing over the terms of the current franchise)

Now personally for the XC franchise it is too large and complex
What should happen is that routes are cross shared
For example :
Aberdeen - Newcastle - York - Birmingham - Bristol - Plymouth
ScotRail = Aberdeen - Edinburgh
East Coast = Edinburgh - York
XC = York - Bristol
Great Western = Bristol - Plymouth
Yes, that does mean dependency, but Cross Country provide the rolling stock
It would also mean that catering would be available THROUGHOUT (except before 07:00 or after 21:00)
Under the current model there are often two (or sometimes even more!) crews on one train, which then ensures late running is kept to a minimum, but this increases the costs

 

[MidnightFlyer]

XC use 2 HSTs Mon-Thu and 3 on Fri. On Sat and Sun it varies and is sometimes up to 4. I'm intrigued by your comment about when Voyagers came along. I can find, without looking too hard, plenty of vidoes of failed 47s, 86s and even the hallowed HSTs being dragged by all manner of freight locos running hideous amounts of hours late. The counter to this will no doubt be 'poor maintenance', but a clapped out 47 or AC electric will always need more frequent maintenance than a newer DMU. And at least Bombardier can switch engines out on Voyagers very simply and keep the unit running, don't think it's quite so simple on any of the locos mentioned, especially 86s. People also lambast XC for no longer running the truly random trains you used to get under BR, such as a Fishguard to Dundee via Swindon and Preston (I'm deliberately using hyperbole). But under privatisation, where a TOC can only call on it's own traincrew, rather than a nationwide pool of route/traction knowledge, that's never going to be practical. Think of all the route learning and refreshing crews would need to do. XC is a franchise that will constantly be under change and getting remoulded to the needs of the customer, but sadly rolling stock is the most expensive variable in all of this, and at these austere times there's little chance of that changing any time soon.

Engines aren't my thing - I couldn't even tell you want used to do XC trains. I meant, to me, the old IC stock had nice interiors, more seats etc. The Voyagers are RyanAir planes on rails. Sorry - just really really horrible. HSTs were just great on XC

 

[Greenback]

It may be self defeating to charge these high fares if, as I suspect, people are simply either not travelling, or finding ways to avoid XC priced tickets.

I also forgot to emntion earlier the ridiculous and unworkable restrictions that XC introduced!

 

[Aictos]

Personally as a TOC i think us guys and gals on XC do a good job Dont blame us for Virgins errors

Quite right too, my main gripe with XC is not ticketing or staff but rather someone's idea that 2 car Turbostars are perfectly acceptable on a Inter Regional Airport service when they most of the time resemble sardine cans when you look at other similar services and they are at the most 4 or 5 car long which is why the whole route between Stansted and Birmingham should be electrified.

Okay, sometimes they have 3 car Turbostars but still they too can get rather busy.

Other then that, I think the front line staff do a good job.

 

[wintonian]

Engines aren't my thing - I couldn't even tell you want used to do XC trains. I meant, to me, the old IC stock had nice interiors, more seats etc. The Voyagers are RyanAir planes on rails. Sorry - just really really horrible. HSTs were just great on XC

That’s pretty much summed it up.

 

[Geezertronic]

The voyagers are good trains but often overcrowded had they been 6 or 7 carraiges it would be better. But Arriva have to work with what they got Arriva didnt order the voyager VIRGIN did.

Virgin XC might have ordered the trains, but from what I understand they were spec'd by DfT so in that respect Virgin XC had to work with the spec they were allowed by the DfT and given the increased frequency, 4 & 5 coach 220/221s were considered sufficient.

Bombardier are suggesting a Pantograph coach but from what I understand from my cousin who works for XC, Virgin are more likely to take this idea forward with their 221s than XC with their 220/221s (providing they get a franchise extension).

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

I try not to use them, unless of course your primary service provider is XC (Taunton-Bristol) apart from a few FGW locals + early/late peak trains.

Why don't I like them?

1/ Unless I hit lucky & get an HST, the engine noise underneath.
2/ The cramped conditions.
3/ The smell of sewage from the toilets.
4/ Their reliability (regularly late).

The whole voyager fleet needs sending to the scrap yard & replacing with LHCS or an HST equivalent.

 

[tbtc]

It seems strange that they are being criticised for being over-priced *and* over-crowded... do you honestly expect them to introduce hundreds of "bargain" fares when they struggle to provide a seat for existing passengers on many journeys?

XC is in an impossible position. The trains are often crowded, yet the franchise isn't making enough money - I'm not sure how it could "square that circle" easily.

Best thing to do, IMHO is abandon the real "cross country" element, forget about Aberdeen to Penzance journeys - either split most journeys at Birmingham (with a handful a day from one end of the UK to the other) or concentrate on the "core" York/ Manchester/ Bristol/ Reading service for most services and let the likes of First Great Western provide the links to places like Brighton/ Swansea/ Penzance.

I appreciate the above won't go down well on here, and that a Lot of people like the "one a day" services and think that there is demand to go from Cornwall to Grampian, but...

 

[87015]

Virgin XC might have ordered the trains, but from what I understand they were spec'd by DfT so in that respect Virgin XC had to work with the spec they were allowed by the DfT and given the increased frequency, 4 & 5 coach 220/221s were considered sufficient..

Why would the DfT have anything to do with speccing the interior of a brand new train? This was the 'brave new world' of privatisation with very little gov't input, it was all Virgin who wanted three classes and four/five coach trains from the outset.

 

[Greenback]

It seems strange that they are being criticised for being over-priced *and* over-crowded... do you honestly expect them to introduce hundreds of "bargain" fares when they struggle to provide a seat for existing passengers on many journeys?

XC is in an impossible position. The trains are often crowded, yet the franchise isn't making enough money - I'm not sure how it could "square that circle" easily.

Best thing to do, IMHO is abandon the real "cross country" element, forget about Aberdeen to Penzance journeys - either split most journeys at Birmingham (with a handful a day from one end of the UK to the other) or concentrate on the "core" York/ Manchester/ Bristol/ Reading service for most services and let the likes of First Great Western provide the links to places like Brighton/ Swansea/ Penzance.

I appreciate the above won't go down well on here, and that a Lot of people like the "one a day" services and think that there is demand to go from Cornwall to Grampian, but...

I agree with the fares, but as I have said before, XC did not count on passengers finding ways around their fares policy! Hence they have very full trains, but revenue is down on forecasts!

There aren't any XC services to Swansea, and I think that XC has no need to go to brighton, which is very well served by other operators with plenty of services. But Penzance is a different matter. XC does provide valuable extra capacity in the South West and is used for local journeys in Devon and Cornwall. Where it;s right that there's little demand for through services from Cornwall to Grmapian, there is a market for journeys to Bristol and Birmingham from Devon and Cornwall, which is reliant on the XC service from Plymouth.

 

[rail-britain]

Sadly that is the way it is
The franchise specifies the rolling stock
Where the franchise holder wants to upgrade or replace the rolling stock (at their own cost) the DfT specify the minimum requirement

It is for this very reason that franchise holders now would rather refurbish what they have then be "lumped" with something that is not suitable, having learnt the lesson that Virgin Rail Group went through

Ironically, the whole point of privitisation was to see new rolling stock invested in the railway, as the government knew it couldn't afford it
However in some areas this has been slightly more successful, but more by luck and chance, equally in others it has been unsuccessful (Gatwick Express and SWT/SPT Junipers)

 

[GingerSte]

A big part of my problem is with the capacity of the trains they run. I travel between Wakefield and Birmingham about once a month, and a four-car Voyager just doesn't provide enough capacity. I now book in advance for the 19:03 Birmingham-Wakefield on a friday and the 10:21 Wakefield-Birmingham on a sunday just to be sure of getting a seat!

Also, XC seem to think nothing of running a single train per hour on a weekend when there are engineering related diruptions, but then only running a single four-carriage Voyager for that service!

I can see XC's point in that they are working with what they inherited, but surely adding one coach per train, and spreading it out over a long period, would provide the capacity at little extra cost. I am sure that they could do some value engineering (ie no powered axles, limiting luggage space) to lower the cost per seat. They could also make use of the luggage space better - I would put a tick-box on the internet booking page for large luggage and put those people next to the huge luggage rack where the shop was. If that's not enough, then using the luggage space behind the drivers cabs is also a possibility: XC could run a luggage service for the major stations (Bristol, Birmingham, Leeds, Edinburgh, etc) like GNER/NXEC/EC did/do for the London-Edinburgh services. Both of these things would take luggage out of the seating compartments and make more room for seats.

 

[mumrar]

and I think that XC has no need to go to brighton

XC haven't gone to Brighton since sometime in 2008 you may wish to know.

 

[tbtc]

There aren't any XC services to Swansea, and I think that XC has no need to go to brighton, which is very well served by other operators with plenty of services

I was just mentioning them as two of the previous termini Cross Country used to serve

But Penzance is a different matter. XC does provide valuable extra capacity in the South West and is used for local journeys in Devon and Cornwall. Where it;s right that there's little demand for through services from Cornwall to Grmapian, there is a market for journeys to Bristol and Birmingham from Devon and Cornwall, which is reliant on the XC service from Plymouth.

If the Cross Country service in Devon/ Cornwall is well used by local journeys then that's what FGW are for. In the same way that the SWT services were chopped at Exeter (with FGW providing replacements west of St Davids), maybe FGW should be responsible for these local trips in the south west? I'm not saying that FGW have loads of extra capacity, but maybe a 158 would be a better use of resources than a whole Voyager.

Radical, I know, but if FGW did this stretch during the day, SWT did the daytime service from Bournemouth to Reading, cut the ECML service down to one an hour north of York, bi-hourly north of Newcastle... you'd have a lot of spare Voyagers that could add capacity to the "core" section.

Keep a token service to Plymouth/ Aberdeen/ Bournemouth, so that they still have some direct link to Birmingham (etc), keep holiday services to Newquay/ Torbay - but use resources where best needed.

Taking out the (often irregular) XC services out of the equation may make it easier for the "local" TOC to have a clockface service (sometimes the XC service runs close to other trains anyway, like the Aberdeen - Edinburgh section)

Not idea, and will be unpopular, but there are other trains from Edinburgh to York, or Basingstoke to Southampton etc. Maybe we should stop pretending XC is a really "Cross Country" TOC for journeys of 200/300 miles and concentrate on the main York/ Manchester/ Reading/ Bristol section.

 

[rail-britain]

surely adding one coach per train, and spreading it out over a long period, would provide the capacity at little extra cost

Sadly any additional coaches in the Voyagers MUST be powered

I do agree, increasing ALL these units to 6 coaches would increase capacity
Furthermore West Coast could option for their units to be increased as well (but suggestions are their additional coach will be electric rather than diesel powered)

However, the increased capacity does not reduce costs
Ironically it actually increases it!
This is due to the poor design of the Voyager, plus the track access charges that apply to such a unit

Therefore would passengers be willing to pay MORE for more capacity
After all the business model is to have the train at or near to 100% capacity

If the train was operating at or less than 10% capacity the service would be considered for withdrawal
Ironically, XC already operate such services, the last Glasgow Central - Edinburgh is well below 10% capacity, even with silly fares of under £5.00!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

If there is real need for changes in capacity/improvement to services:

Standard XC servicews as they stand, all done by Voyagers.

But create a hourly/two-hourly service:

Plymouth-Edinburgh operated by a HST calling at:
Plymouth
Exeter St D
Bristol TM
Birmingham New St
Derby
Sheffield (for Leeds)
York
Newcastle
Edinburgh

Put Voyagers on a two-hourly:

Cardiff C-Stansted Airport calling at:
Cardiff C
Newport
Gloucester
Cheltenham Spa
Birmingham New St
Nuneaton
Leicester
Peterborough
Ely
Cambridge
Stansted Airport

 

[mumrar]

Why would any additonal carriages on a Voyager need to be powered? I'd never consider a 4 car 3000hp DMU underpowered, being as the loco hauled services everyone wishes were back had 2580 hp for 7 cars with a Class 47.

 

[Invincibles]

So under the Cardiff to Stansted voyager plan which train goes missing?

The xx52 from Birmingham to Leicester that picks up the local stops on that line or the xx22 from Birmingham to Stansted that would also call Melton Oakham and Stamford and in so doing be the only train to call there each hour?

It seems that while it might seem great to find more HSTs on the long distance and therefore displace voyagers to a route that 2 car 170s are not suitable for it is not actually as good as it seems.

It is my feeling however that the Stansted and Leicester routes diagram share, that the xx16 gets to Birmingham and then forms the xx22 to Stansted the following hour. This means there are often 3 car 170s on the Leicester run which are reasonably quiet while the 2 car ends up going full to Stansted. If there was some way to resolve that it might be a help, but no where is 10 minutes past Birmingham to sensibly extend the service to turn around at and there certainly is not space at Birmingham for the trains to sit in a platform for 40 minutes instead of 10.

 

[mumrar]

By 'most times' I take it you mean 'some times'. I have worked the XC services to Stansted, and before with Central Trains. They have busy sections, more especially on the peak trains. But after leaving Leicester, a Stansted bound service has few passengers until connecting with the East Coast and some passengers at Ely. The stock also needs a balance for the Off Peak period, as well as the Peak times too. When I work the last Stansted-New St, the most passengers you see after Peterborough is about 20-25. Not very good for a 3 car 170. On a couple of services the length of train is affected by the service calling at Manea. Only 2 car 170s are allowed to call there.