why does driving different classes need special training?

[ess]

i suppose anyone who's ever driven a train will be chortling to themselves from the question, but why can't a train driver just go and drive another train type like when a car driver goes and drives a minibus?

 

[generalvegitable]

different classes of train have diffeent control layouts, different acceleration, different braking, different top speeds, and it is basicly like saying why should they have to learn routes before driving them?

 

[ess]

ok thanks... to play devils advocate for a moment...

why does a driver need to learn a route when there's plenty of signs, signals and such like? how hard can it be to take a diversion and not screw up?

 

[Donny Dave]

ok thanks... to play devils advocate for a moment...

why does a driver need to learn a route when there's plenty of signs, signals and such like? how hard can it be to take a diversion and not screw up?

It's hard enough for drivers to remember routes they do sign, if they don't cover them very often.

 

[Chris125]

Download BVE and try driving a route like Cross-City in clear sunshine for the first time - it will open your eyes! Then try it in fog...

The biggest issue is probably braking distances. Where you begin braking, and how hard, is purely a matter of judgement based on the rolling stock, conditions, and the experience and knowledge of the driver of upcoming speed restrictions, gradients, stations, signals etc.

Chris

 

[GearJammer]

So how hard is it to learn a certain type of traction compared to another? In road haulage we don't train after getting out of one truck and into another, i once swapped from Mercedes Actros into a MAN TGX and was'nt shown the diffrences between the two but a quick nose round the cab and i was happy enough to drive it all the controls were there but obviously in diffrent places and it was easy enough to drive with no issues.
Surely a train driver can get out of one type of traction and get on another and be able to recognise the controls and know what does what?

 

[Voyager 2093]

i suppose anyone who's ever driven a train will be chortling to themselves from the question, but why can't a train driver just go and drive another train type like when a car driver goes and drives a minibus?

Its a whole lot different with Trains. For example on the WCML 350s were recently introduced displacing most of the 321s. Now the new 350s have a much higher acceleration and the braking is much sharper. In fact the 350s and all Desiros for that matter use percentage type braking.

Whereas 321s have the typical B notch braking system found on all 2nd Generation Units.

So as you can see, two totally different types of units in terms of performance, the newer 350 therefore needing new training for the different newer unit, or else things will start to go wrong.

 

[Tomnick]

Fault finding and resolution is surely more of an important consideration?

 

[Pumbaa]

Don't compare trains to cars - compare them to planes. You can't expect someone to be able to jump into an aircraft and fly it straight away if you can fly other ones - they're all different. Same with trains.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
To be fair, its like any specialist piece of equipment. You need to be specifically trained to deal with it.

 

[O L Leigh]

I've never even been in the cab of an HST and have no knowledge of the GWML. Want to come for a spin with me down to Penzance and back...?

Driving trains may appear to be very simple, but we're required to be able to do more than just drive them. We have to be able to carry out basic fault-finding and rectification so we need to know what indications we might get, what they could mean and where to look to find the necessary equipment in order to get the thing going again. Plus certain types of trains will have not only different performance characteristics but also require a different driving technique. I've only ever been trained on EMU's but had a go in a Cl153 on a low adhesion driving course. The technique that I would have used to get an EMU rolling would not have worked on the "Scud", but I wouldn't have known that if I hadn't got a manager next to me telling me what to do.

As for route knowledge, this is also far more complicated than you might imagine. We need to know the permitted speeds, the order in which the stations appear, locations of junctions, braking points, locations and types of crossings, expected (and unexpected) signal indications, shunt moves, gradients, locations and types of route risks, local instructions, controlling signalboxes, signalling systems and many other things besides. In short, we have to know the routes like the backs of our hands before we're let loose on our own. We need to be able to drive safely and know where we are at all times, even in the dark, rain or fog. Unlike road vehicles, we can't just drive on line-of-sight because of the speeds and braking distances involved.

It really isn't as simple as it seems, is it.

O L Leigh

 

[Class377/5]

So how hard is it to learn a certain type of traction compared to another? In road haulage we don't train after getting out of one truck and into another, i once swapped from Mercedes Actros into a MAN TGX and was'nt shown the diffrences between the two but a quick nose round the cab and i was happy enough to drive it all the controls were there but obviously in diffrent places and it was easy enough to drive with no issues.
Surely a train driver can get out of one type of traction and get on another and be able to recognise the controls and know what does what?

One good example I can think of is using trains in multiples.

A car driver or truck driver may know how to handle a car or turck but drivers may start of with a 4 car service and end up driving a 12 or even 16 car train (tho the 16 car is likely to be empties). Add in the factor of how many people are on board and you see why you need training on units.

Simple fact is road drivers won't suddenly have to cope with something that serveral times bigger than what they started with. This is where route learning really comes into play as getting up a hill on an off peak 4 car train is very different to a peak packed 12 car train and that just dealing with the same class. Once you add in the various classes a driver may have to cope with and he needs to know how to handle a situation before he's in the cab alone.

 

[O L Leigh]

Units in multiple don't make a lot of difference. 4, 8 or 12 car trains all tend to perform much the same, as each unit in that formation is only moving and braking it's own weight. The reasons for traction and route learning are as I set out in my previous post.

No offence intended.

O L Leigh

 

[met331]

I drive hst Meridian and Sprinters all 3 have different types of control. The hst brake takes nearly 4 times as long to respond than a meridian does. If you start to slip,a 153 doesnt have sanders to help you so you have to drive it differently than everything else. We get 3 weeks for each type of traction.

Regarding route knowledge we get 8 weeks just to sign Derby - London. People always ask why and i liken it to driving a car on the A-roads to London knowing where each road junction of it goes and where each set of traffic lights is and where they can send you.
A good example of it is London St Pancras there is a speed limit board of 50mph 2 miles before the station. that is the last speed board before the bufferstops. The track then goes downhill rather steeply and if you dont start putting the brake on the hst you will stopping somewhere near the Thames!!!
The signs help but dont tell you much especially at 110 mph in fog.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The only stupid question is the one not asked. How can you know if you dont ask. Dont feel embarrased a guard of some years once asked me if trains could climb hills !!!!!!!!

 

[Oswyntail]

As a spin-off, another question. Given that there will be basically the same controls in each comparable type, is there standardisation of cab layout - and, if not, why not? An ergonomically designed standard cab could help - a driver on a type he has rarely used could, in an emergency, still know by instinct where everything is. I know I feel frustrated when driving a new type of car at how often I use the windscreen wipers to indicate turning right!

 

[chuffchuff]

i suppose anyone who's ever driven a train will be chortling to themselves from the question, but why can't a train driver just go and drive another train type like when a car driver goes and drives a minibus?

Very sensible question
A minibus is just a car with more windows, so you only need a conversion
course for that, a look around the controls, amd a little drive around and sorted

When you get to an eight wheeled tipper, the go and stop pedals are in the same place, and the big round thing still points it in the direction you want to
go, but it's totally different to drive than a car. Rigid and drag, the same Cab different
way to drive again, then an artic different still
And to do an analagy to some of the modern stock with combined power and brake
controllers, you're given a motorbike
As the ones above you need lessons and a test to drive them on the road

To get an idea of train braking, pick a drain cover by your house, drive towards it at 30mph, then slow down just using the gears, until you get into 1st
then when your down to 10mph you can use the handbrake (without skidding)
to stop with the front wheel on the drain

For some reason i see lots of neighbours lace curtains twitching, and wives asking husbands " What's he doing now?"

 

[b0b]

I've never even been in the cab of an HST and have no knowledge of the GWML. Want to come for a spin with me down to Penzance and back...?

a cab ride in an HST? YES PLEASE!

 

[TDK]

ok thanks... to play devils advocate for a moment...

why does a driver need to learn a route when there's plenty of signs, signals and such like? how hard can it be to take a diversion and not screw up?

If you took a diversion and didn't "sign the route" meaning you haven't been tested on the route and signed you are competent it is a dissmissable mode of misconduct, that is the answer to the question. There are not always signs for speeds and if you are travelling at 100mph it will take approximately 1 mile to slow to 30 mph without too much brake so therefore making the ride noticable by the passengers. So, if you brakes on sight of the sign, say 400m from the sign you would still be doing about 85mph passing the 30mph sign. I was driving on the Chilterns a while back with nearly zero visibility and was travelling at line speed (85mph) applied the brake to slow for a 25mph Permanent speed restriction and was spot on, this is why train drivers need to know the routes they drive intimately.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

One good example I can think of is using trains in multiples.

A car driver or truck driver may know how to handle a car or turck but drivers may start of with a 4 car service and end up driving a 12 or even 16 car train (tho the 16 car is likely to be empties). Add in the factor of how many people are on board and you see why you need training on units.

Simple fact is road drivers won't suddenly have to cope with something that serveral times bigger than what they started with. This is where route learning really comes into play as getting up a hill on an off peak 4 car train is very different to a peak packed 12 car train and that just dealing with the same class. Once you add in the various classes a driver may have to cope with and he needs to know how to handle a situation before he's in the cab alone.

You are on the wrong track here, sorry for the pun. The length of the train does not have anything to do with route knowledge except the platform lengths and lengths of loops etc., there isn't a lot of difference in performance of a unit being it a 4 car or a 12 car, the more passengers or weight in the coaches the more air pressure goes into the brake cylinders to compensate for the extra weight. To explain the performance thing. a 158 say has 2 coaches, 2 engines with equalpower output, a 12 car 158 has 12 coaches with 12 engines with equal power output. However I drive LHCS and this is different, I do notice the difference when the train is full or not with the performance of the loco, it does not make a lot of difference but does a little, say for instace leaving Cosford (steep up gradient) in the up direction, you will get to about 68mph in an empty train by Albrighton but with a full train about 64mph.

 

[TGV]

It's not just the physical driving of the train (i.e. making it move and stop), because yes, pretty much any driver could manage that in any traction given a few minutes to work out the controls. But imagine for a second you're a driver passed on those little 2-car pacer things and you can drive them all day long on your route.

Now you're sat in the cab of a Eurostar. You'll figure out what controls make it go and what make it stop, but what about voltage changes? In cab signalling? But the real difference in going from one type of traction to another is fault finding in case of a failure or problem. You'll be familiar with where the brake panel is for various isolating cocks on your class, but could you easily find them on another? If an serious fault code flashes up on the computer of the pendolino or eurostar that you're driving, would you konw what it meant, what to do operationally and how to rectify it?

Someone sensibly mentioned that it's actually more accurate to compare planes to trains in this respect. Most pilots of a 737 could do a fine job of actually taking the controls of a 747 or A380 and know HOW to control it, but they'd struggle actually doing the job properly as there are so many systems, and sub-systems they'd need to know, and also the different dynamics of them would take some time getting used to.

It's not a stupid question though.

 

[jopsuk]

With planes things are a bit different yet again- certainly, modern Airbus planes are fitted with control systems common to multiple models, minimising (though not eliminating) re-training for pilots (as I understand it)

 

[455driver]

With planes things are a bit different yet again- certainly, modern Airbus planes are fitted with control systems common to multiple models, minimising (though not eliminating) re-training for pilots (as I understand it)

So go from an Airbus to a Boeing then! :roll:

 

[westcoaster]

A good example of it is London St Pancras there is a speed limit board of 50mph 2 miles before the station. that is the last speed board before the bufferstops.

lol i hope your not on a train behind mine into high level then, because you need some glasses, you forgot the 20 mph board by churchyad siddings and the 15mph boards at the start of every platform
(only joking about the glasses)


The way i look at it is anyone can drive a train, but not everyone can control a train.

To the op what a top question, hyperthetically wake up and get in your car one very dence foggy morning and drive to work, now you must travel at the national speed limit at all times even down country lanes or on a motorway, you must obey all speed changes in time ( if there are speed cameras dont get caught, just like a train driver would with TPWS or TPWS+) and obey all traffic lights, and see if it would take the same time as it would on a clear day.
Now thats what a driver is expected to do keep to the same timings as you would on a clear day, thats why we have to know a route like the back of your hand.

 

[455driver]

To the op what a top question, hyperthetically wake up and get in your car one very dence foggy morning and drive to work, now you must travel at the national speed limit at all times even down country lanes or on a motorway, you must obey all speed changes in time ( if there are speed cameras dont get caught, just like a train driver would with TPWS or TPWS+) and obey all traffic lights, and see if it would take the same time as it would on a clear day.

No, it WILL take the same time, including stopping at the traffic lights/ give way signs at exactly the same time as normal, otherwise you will get moaned at and the boss will give you a "please explain" as to why you were 2 minutes late!

 

[RobShipway]

I am not a train driver, but I agree about westcoaster post and also I think most of us that do drive know more than one route yo get to the office in the same way train drivers have to learn more than one route to get a train to a destination, should it be needed to divert a train even at last minute due to an accident etc...

I would suggest that the original poster obtain one of the drivers eye view videos from www.video125.co.uk. Watch the C2C or Birmingham Cross City video then a imagine driving those routes as in dense fog or with heavy snow falling on the ground.

 

[ess]

thanks all this is a really interesting discussion

 

[richw]

. I know I feel frustrated when driving a new type of car at how often I use the windscreen wipers to indicate turning right!

i believe honda are the only manufacturer now having the wiper stalk and indicator stalk back to fron now, the one i get stuck on is finding the headlight switch. i've a new astra which has a knob on the right of the steering wheel for lights, i also have a skoda which has a button to turn on the lights in the centre console, and the van has the light switch on a stalk!

i guess a train to be far complicated than i could imagine, just by playing on train driver simulators the 3 or 4 different classes confuse me with all the different control layouts

 

[9K43]

At a freight depot, drivers have to have knowledge of all the private and railway owned locations.
Each Private location, has its own sidings with different Methods of Work(MOW) at each location.
At HM SOP there is a large book containing all MOW's that this depot works in and out of.
These MOW's are updated on a regular basis by ASLEF/RMT/SAFETY reps to ensure they are upto date.
Roxby Gullet at Scunthorpe has a different MOW to Heck which is situated on the ECML.
To enter Heck the train has to propel into the yard, through a ground frame on the up road.
To get to Roxby Gullet the train has to RR at Scunthorpe Yard then again at Roxby.
In contrast to a passenger train driver, the knowledge required is different to what is needed in Yard like Crossley Evans at Shipley.
In some yards, the track is that rough, if you went into it too fast, you could derail your train.
The above location is a prime example.
Once on the main line a freight driver has to know the road just the same as a passenger man.
We have had drivers leave and go to passenger depots, and they have to learn the traction and the roads that they will be going over, before they go out solo.

 

[Bedpan]

I am not a train driver, but I agree about westcoaster post and also I think most of us that do drive know more than one route yo get to the office in the same way train drivers have to learn more than one route to get a train to a destination, should it be needed to divert a train even at last minute due to an accident etc...

I would suggest that the original poster obtain one of the drivers eye view videos from www.video125.co.uk. Watch the C2C or Birmingham Cross City video then a imagine driving those routes as in dense fog or with heavy snow falling on the ground.

In fact you can drive the southern half of Birmingham Cross City on BVE. I'm not a train driver but I can quite see how duiifficult it is to learn a route - having to know the location of evey signal and crossover (and crossover speed restrictions) as well as the line speeds and the location of stations which I assume would be relatively easier to remember.

I've driven the Network West Midlands route on BVE many times but still am not sure about all of the speed restrictions, or find passing a single yellow to be a nightmare, not knowing exactly where the next signal is and unnecessarily crawling for miles till I reach it, or going faster and then finding that it jumps out on me and I have trouble stopping in time.

How drivers used to manage with vacuum brakes in days gone by God only knows.

 

[MrC]

How drivers used to manage with vacuum brakes in days gone by God only knows.

I've never used a vacuum brake but I can't imagine it's any worse than using a single pipe triple-valve air brake which was really good at finding how good a driver you were. And then there were unfitted freights which must have been a real barrel of laughs.

Mind you in those halcyon days station overruns, stop shorts, rough stops, buffer collisions, derailments and sometimes even SPADs weren't always the issues they are now.

 

[Kneedown]

And then there were unfitted freights which must have been a real barrel of laughs.

When you're on a pair of 20's with 1500ton pushing you downhill on a wet rail towards a red signal, then 25mph seems very fast indeed. Trust me!

 

[jayc]

i believe honda are the only manufacturer now having the wiper stalk and indicator stalk back to fron now, the one i get stuck on is finding the headlight switch. i've a new astra which has a knob on the right of the steering wheel for lights, i also have a skoda which has a button to turn on the lights in the centre console, and the van has the light switch on a stalk!

Not Honda but Kia/Hyundai at least until recently had the indicator stalk on the right. I think since the Hyundai i30/Kia C'eed models the indicator stalk has been on the left like all other manufacturers.