Why do some trains skip out stops for apparently no reason?

[mangyiscute]

To make it clear, I understand fully why we can't run railways where every trains stops at every station it runs through - even local trains should skip stations if it makes sense for other parts of the timetable.
However, I just don't understand why, for example, the Buxton trains only serve Dove Holes and Middlewood every other hour. In the current timetable, these trains sit in Buxton for almost an hour, and after Hazel Grove, the track is not shared with any other passenger services, and very few freight services. It is a double track for the whole length so there is no need for any passing places,
Therefore, I don't see any reason why the stops at Dove Holes and Middlewood could be done on every train - this would cost the services perhaps 2 or 3 mins, so it can just arrive in Buxton 3 mins later and depart Buxton 3 mins earlier.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I think that the ‘reason’ for alternate trains not stopping on the Buxton line is very low demand at the stations in question. If you’ve ever spent a significant amount of time around Dove Holes and Middlewood you might appreciate the distinct local reasons why this is the case.

It can make the trip to Buxton slightly less tedious and save a modest amount of fuel and brake wear.

 

[Iskra]

I can understand the example above and can see that there is a logical pattern.

A more bizarre one is that today, there is one TP train all day that does not call at Meadowhall, it is a late train but Northern services are still calling at the same time. Can anyone explain that one? It seems like a recipe for passenger confusion/mistakes, and at that time of night it’s probably a very long wait for a train back from Doncaster. It nearly caught me out on one occasion.

Realtime Trains | 1B96 2119 Liverpool Lime Street to Doncaster | 12/01/2023

Real-time train running information for 1B96 2119 departure from Liverpool Lime Street to Doncaster on 12/01/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | Departures from Meadowhall all day on 12/01/2023

Train information at Meadowhall all day on 12/01/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[InkyScrolls]

Another strange one is the random stopping pattern for trains from Leeds through to Carlisle at Gargrave and Long Preston; certain services skip either one or both of these for no apparent reason.

 

[pdeaves]

Another strange one is the random stopping pattern for trains from Leeds through to Carlisle at Gargrave and Long Preston; certain services skip either one or both of these for no apparent reason.

I don't know about this specific example, but often station A or station B but not both is because there is only enough time in the schedule for one station call and the two least important stations have to take it in turns. They don't have to be adjacent, it's the time the train 'pops out' at the major junction that is important.

 

[Birmingham]

Some other services skip stops for capacity reasons. One morning peak Hereford to Birmingham service skips Bromsgrove, often full from Droitwich so there's no point calling a train with no room for additional passengers to join it.

 

[zwk500]

I can understand the example above and can see that there is a logical pattern.

A more bizarre one is that today, there is one TP train all day that does not call at Meadowhall, it is a late train but Northern services are still calling at the same time. Can anyone explain that one? It seems like a recipe for passenger confusion/mistakes, and at that time of night it’s probably a very long wait for a train back from Doncaster. It nearly caught me out on one occasion.

Realtime Trains | 1B96 2119 Liverpool Lime Street to Doncaster | 12/01/2023

Real-time train running information for 1B96 2119 departure from Liverpool Lime Street to Doncaster on 12/01/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | Departures from Meadowhall all day on 12/01/2023

Train information at Meadowhall all day on 12/01/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

This one is indeed strange, as Meadowhall would normally be a guaranteed stop. I'd hazard a guess that it's either avoiding a possession between Sheffield and Doncaster, or there's a crew hours requirement or similar.

 

[InkyScrolls]

I don't know about this specific example, but often station A or station B but not both is because there is only enough time in the schedule for one station call and the two least important stations have to take it in turns. They don't have to be adjacent, it's the time the train 'pops out' at the major junction that is important.

The daft thing is that there's plenty of padding at Skipton, so it would be possible to call at both without impacting the overall timings.

 

[miklcct]

I don't know about this specific example, but often station A or station B but not both is because there is only enough time in the schedule for one station call and the two least important stations have to take it in turns. They don't have to be adjacent, it's the time the train 'pops out' at the major junction that is important.

If station A and station B are consecutive stations, such as Feniton and Whimple, how can people travel between them if alternate trains call one but not the other?

 

[johnnychips]

This one is indeed strange, as Meadowhall would normally be a guaranteed stop. I'd hazard a guess that it's either avoiding a possession between Sheffield and Doncaster, or there's a crew hours requirement or similar.

It takes 33 minutes as opposed to a normal c.25. Is it so it could be diverted via Woodburn Jnc and Rotherham if needed for engineering or route knowledge?

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

There is a calculable cost (fuel, brake block wear, etc) for adding extra stops into a service, not forgetting the revenue adjustment for lengthening end to end journey times. If the marginal revenue gain from the stop is less than the cost, then the commercial case is against the stop being added.

 

[Kite159]

It takes 33 minutes as opposed to a normal c.25. Is it so it could be diverted via Woodburn Jnc and Rotherham if needed for engineering or route knowledge?

I'm sure in the past there used to be a TPE service which was booked to go the back route from Sheffield towards Rotherham (alongside the tram line) for route knowledge. Similar to the odd late night TPE service which goes via Marple [so nonstop Sheffield - Manchester Piccadilly] & the tour of Yorkshire via Moorthorpe/Wakefield/Huddersfield.

 

[DelW]

If station A and station B are consecutive stations, such as Feniton and Whimple, how can people travel between them if alternate trains call one but not the other?

They obviously can't. The question comes up occasionally on the North Downs line, where the minor stations between Guildford and Reigate are served by two alternating stopping patterns, meaning you can't travel by train between a village served by one pattern and a village served by the other, except by stopping off intermediately or overshooting and returning.

(Fortunately in the that case the easier answer is to use the hourly no 32 bus, which also goes through each village rather than serving stations located some way from their centres.)

 

[zwk500]

If station A and station B are consecutive stations, such as Feniton and Whimple, how can people travel between them if alternate trains call one but not the other?

Effort is made to avoid alternating between stations where people would want to travel between them by train, but sometimes it's not possible. Alternatives usually are the car, but could be bus routes or even doubling back.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Happens, for example, for journeys between Plumpton and Cooksbridge; other than on Sundays, only a handful of trains call each day at the two consecutive stations.

 

[mangyiscute]

I would say that for the most part, when theres a good reason to only call at one of the stations such as the train having tight pathing at either end, it makes sense to prevent this probably very rare journey in trade for a better service overall

 

[Some guy]

It’s an annoyance if wanting to travel from oxenholme to Penrith during the day as Avanti stupidly skip stop the only good thing now is TPE stop every single service at every station but that’s dependent on them being reliable

 

[zwk500]

It’s an annoyance if wanting to travel from oxenholme to Penrith during the day as Avanti stupidly skip stop the only good thing now is TPE stop every single service at every station but that’s dependent on them being reliable

Point of order - it's not stupid for Avanti as the London-Glasgow overall journey time is time-sensitive and an extra 5 minutes for an additional station call can make a big difference.

 

[mangyiscute]

Perhaps it would be better in general for the fast Glasgow train to skip both for the most part and have the via Birmingham service pick up both stops then?

 

[JonathanH]

The question comes up occasionally on the North Downs line, where the minor stations between Guildford and Reigate are served by two alternating stopping patterns, meaning you can't travel by train between a village served by one pattern and a village served by the other, except by stopping off intermediately or overshooting and returning.

The demand for travelling between Betchworth and either Gomshall or Chilworth is likely to be tiny.

 

[zwk500]

Perhaps it would be better in general for the fast Glasgow train to skip both for the most part and have the via Birmingham service pick up both stops then?

Unfortunately doing that means the train would present at junctions at different times each hour. Having the stops alternate keeps the time consistent across the pattern and allows the more regular commuter trains in Glasgow to be timetabled more effectively.

 

[DelW]

The demand for travelling between Betchworth and either Gomshall or Chilworth is likely to be tiny.

Indeed, although Chilworth or Gomshall to or from Dorking West is probably a more likely unserved demand, since West is closer to much of the town than Deepdene is.

Again I think the bus will mop up most of the non-car-using traffic, and in that area Range Rovers probably carry more than either bus or train.

 

[Geeves]

As crazy as it might seem having spent alot of time in Dove Holes recently, the poor service means the potential passengers just make alternative arrangements, I don't think they would be too happy to be told "sorry we need to save on brake blocks". There's still a couple o 1000 in and around the area.

It seems to be lost on the powers that be that if you provide a garbage service you put potential passengers off, I went to Buxton to get the train back once just on a whim, two hours for the next one? I got a bus.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Well, the bus does run from the middle of Buxton (various handy stops) through the heart of Dove Holes (strung out along the A6). The station lacks a proper car park. If you’re travelling to Chapel-en-le-Frith the station there is way out of the town. It’s one of many places where the bus is just so much more convenient.

 

[zwk500]

It seems to be lost on the powers that be that if you provide a garbage service you put potential passengers off, I went to Buxton to get the train back once just on a whim, two hours for the next one? I got a bus.

And what is often lost on individual passengers is that putting 1 passenger off to appeal to 10 more is far more beneficial overall to the railway and society than putting 10 passengers off to appeal to 1.

 

[DarloRich]

And what is often lost on individual passengers is that putting 1 passenger off to appeal to 10 more is far more beneficial overall to the railway and society than putting 10 passengers off to appeal to 1.

it is also hard for people to acknowledge that freight might be more important to or valuable for the railway and the wider economy than passengers.

Or, in summation: The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few

 

[Starmill]

From the time that the last TPE service from Manchester to Doncaster was first introduced it was booked via Woodburn Jn. As a result the stop hasn't been added even though it has changed, and it still goes that way occasionally.

 

[185]

Could that service have been a legacy of a (former) route review diversion train, operating via Tinsley, skipping Meadowhall so drivers remain competent during disruption?


....
Edit.. is Woodburn Jn aka Tinsley?

 

[zwk500]

Could that service have been a legacy of a (former) route review diversion train, operating via Tinsley, skipping Meadowhall so drivers remain competent during disruption?


....
Edit.. is Woodburn Jn aka Tinsley?

Yes, Woodburn Jn is the next junction east of Nunnery Main Line jn, where the line to Tinsley diverges from the Worksop line (and where the Stocksbridge line joins in). If a train is routed via Woodburn Jn it has to go past Tinsley Jns to rejoin the line north at Aldwarke jn.

 

[jfollows]

I think that the ‘reason’ for alternate trains not stopping on the Buxton line is very low demand at the stations in question. If you’ve ever spent a significant amount of time around Dove Holes and Middlewood you might appreciate the distinct local reasons why this is the case.

It can make the trip to Buxton slightly less tedious and save a modest amount of fuel and brake wear.

Not stopping every train at Middlewood is a serious disincentive to its use, it's a place I might want to go to but with a train every two hours I'm simply not going to bother if I'm relying on the train for a return journey in particular. If the reason for this (and Dove Holes) were because it prevents an hourly Buxton service then that's fair enough, but just not stopping "because the demand isn't there" isn't, the lack of stops is preventing the demand as far as I'm concerned.
EDIT I note a similar comment by Geeves about Dove Holes.