Why do some trains skip out stops for apparently no reason?

[jfollows]

The one I never got to the bottom of is for the opposite reason - random extra stops.

Back in around 2002-2004, or so, one service from Victoria to Southampton Central via Hove (calling Cosham around 2120) would call additionally at Portchester and Woolston, possibly Netley also, when no other off-peak services did. This would have been in the last years of the CIGs, but I can't remember whether it was Connex or Southern by then. It was the "classic" timetable though, with 1tph to Southampton Central via Hove with a standard calling pattern of Cosham-Fareham-Swanwick only.

Not sure if anyone can shed a light on this. It wasn't to cover a missing SWT service, as one followed around 20 minutes later in the standard hourly path. Maybe this topic (random extra stops in the hourly pattern at off-peak times) needs its own thread!

1H50 here: the working timetable (WG at https://history.networkrail.co.uk/uncategorized/SO_a9ab7c38-77bf-4c23-8af8-7fdf445fa33d/?pg=2) doesn't shed any light I have to admit (May 2003 timetable).

 

[InkyScrolls]

Here's another inexplicable one:

2C51 10:13 departure Lancaster to Carlisle (via Barrow in Furness) (Mon-Sat) calls at all stations on the route, including request stops (except Nethertown and Braystones which isn't a surprise as most services don't call there), however it then skips Harrington (which is not a request stop), Flimby (request stop), and Dalston (not a request stop) for no reason.

That is a strange one. Unit turnaround times at Carlisle?

 

[nw1]

Would it be fair to suggest that the occurrence of "random extra stops" more often than not affects 'start of day' or 'end of day' train services?

I know what you mean, but in the case quoted above (thanks @jfollows for the WTT) there is no particular obvious reason for the stops, given that the hourly SWT service was still running at that time in the evening.

 

[jfollows]

I know what you mean, but in the case quoted above (thanks @jfollows for the WTT) there is no particular obvious reason for the stops, given that the hourly SWT service was still running at that time in the evening.

The Victoria-Southampton train may have had limited stops described because it next worked 2Y03 22:06 Southampton-Brighton via Eastleigh and required a minimum ten minute turn-round allowance at Southampton.

 

[zwk500]

That is a strange one. Unit turnaround times at Carlisle?

The only thing I can see on RTT is that there's a unit which shunts from the 'CLS' sidings onto the south end of 2C51 as 5C56 prior to the next departure 2C56. The shunt appears to be booked to the Shunt neck, which IIRC is on the east side of the Layout and it needs to shunt prior to a flight of conflicting movements around 1400-1405. However I don't see why it couldn't shunt via the Cumbrian Coast Line with a later arrival of 2C51.

 

[nw1]

The Victoria-Southampton train may have had limited stops described because it next worked 2Y03 22:06 Southampton-Brighton via Eastleigh and required a minimum ten minute turn-round allowance at Southampton.

Ah but the thing is it normally made less stops (no Portchester or Woolston) so if it had the regular calling pattern (see 1H46) it would have got to Southampton even earlier.

Note 1H46 had a non-standard departure time out of Victoria, due presumably to leaving during the peak; IIRC xx17 was the standard off-peak pattern, so 1H50 was 'normal off-peak' aside from the extra stops.

Platforming constraints at Southampton maybe, so the stops were made to actually delay the arrival time?

 

[jfollows]

Ah but the thing is it normally made less stops (no Portchester or Woolston) so if it had the regular calling pattern (see 1H46) it would have got to Southampton even earlier.

Note 1H46 had a non-standard departure time out of Victoria, due presumably to leaving during the peak; IIRC xx17 was the standard off-peak pattern, so 1H50 was 'normal off-peak' aside from the extra stops.

Platforming constraints at Southampton maybe, so the stops were made to actually delay the arrival time?

Ah yes, silly me.
Could be platform, the previous occupant of platform 3 left at 21:47 as 2E43 to Portsmouth and I note that 1H50 also has pathing time on approach to Southampton to give it an arrival time of 21:56, further delaying it as well.

 

[nw1]

Ah yes, silly me.
Could be platform, the previous occupant of platform 3 left at 21:47 as 2E43 to Portsmouth and I note that 1H50 also has pathing time on approach to Southampton to give it an arrival time of 21:56, further delaying it as well.

OK that may make sense. Most of the Victoria arrivals used platform 2, if I remember right, but presumably there was some reason why this one couldn't.

Presumably also there was something else pathed into Southampton around 2150 (as a 9-min re-occupation time for platform 3 would be very excessive, the norm is about 3).

 

[Pinus contorta]

The only thing I can see on RTT is that there's a unit which shunts from the 'CLS' sidings onto the south end of 2C51 as 5C56 prior to the next departure 2C56. The shunt appears to be booked to the Shunt neck, which IIRC is on the east side of the Layout and it needs to shunt prior to a flight of conflicting movements around 1400-1405. However I don't see why it couldn't shunt via the Cumbrian Coast Line with a later arrival of 2C51.

Has it got something to do with the line through Aspatria? I think that units aren't allowed to pass each other due to limited clearance (or someone on here claimed such that its treated as single line section)

 

[zwk500]

Has it got something to do with the line through Aspatria? I think that units aren't allowed to pass each other due to limited clearance (or someone on here claimed such that its treated as single line section)

If that was the case why does it do something different to the rest of the trains?

 

[Pinus contorta]

If that was the case why does it do something different to the rest of the trains?

Had a look at the timetable again. I noticed a while back that one of the Lancaster to Carlisle services on Sunday down our end runs 'limited stop' between Barrow & Whitehaven. I cant find any logical reason why it does that and I don't have an answer sorry.

 

[156421]

Had a look at the timetable again. I noticed a while back that one of the Lancaster to Carlisle services on Sunday down our end runs 'limited stop' between Barrow & Whitehaven. I cant find any logical reason why it does that and I don't have an answer sorry.

Let us also recall back on Saturday December 10th 2022 (Carlisle United vs. Barrow AFC, Skybet EFL League Two) when they altered the timetable for 2C41 so that it skipped all stops between Barrow and Whitehaven, but then resumed a normal stopping pattern. Absolutely bewildering logic. Also the soccer match was postponed but the train still adhered to the revised and bizarre timetable. All attempts to seek answers from Northern failed.

 

[InkyScrolls]

That is a particularly strange example!

 

[mangyiscute]

The only thing I could think is that had the football match had gone ahead, they expected too many people to want to take that train, and fans from opposing fan bases. So they could get the fans for Carlisle (who will mainly come from areas near Carlisle including Whitehaven/Workington) on that train, and any fans from any closer places to Barrow (who more likely support Barrow) on another train. That way, you spread the loads of fans across two trains, and also mainly separate fans of the opposing club to avoid any issues that could occur by having them together.
The fact that it didn't revert is most likely Northern just being lazy

 

[Pinus contorta]

Segregation of fans would seem plausible.

When I've used it going north to Carlisle (to connect with Edinburgh / Tyne Valley) trains from Barrow, admittedly not since Covid, it does fill up with pax very quickly from Whitehaven onwards. No idea of the AFC Barrow or Carlisle United fan distribution as I don't follow either of them.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Been on a Southbound WCML train several hours after an (early 1 p.m. KO) Carlisle United vs Barrow fixture had finished.

Somewhat grim journey and BTP had to intervene.

 

[156421]

The only thing I could think is that had the football match had gone ahead, they expected too many people to want to take that train, and fans from opposing fan bases. So they could get the fans for Carlisle (who will mainly come from areas near Carlisle including Whitehaven/Workington) on that train, and any fans from any closer places to Barrow (who more likely support Barrow) on another train. That way, you spread the loads of fans across two trains, and also mainly separate fans of the opposing club to avoid any issues that could occur by having them together.
The fact that it didn't revert is most likely Northern just being lazy

So you would have a trainload of Barrow fans getting on at Barrow, any Barrow fans living in say Askam or Kirkby-in-Furness or Millom, etc., unable to board the train, then a load of Carlisle fans getting on at Whitehaven/Workington (also Harrington... this one was scheduled to call there!) and so on. If anything this is encouraging fanbase mixing and/or active discrimination against the Bluebirds diaspora outside of Barrow proper. Good thing they aren't even actual rivals anyway!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jan 2023 ==

Been on a Southbound WCML train several hours after an (early 1 p.m. KO) Carlisle United vs Barrow fixture had finished.

Somewhat grim journey and BTP had to intervene.

That would have been Saturday November 13th 2021. Didn't see any such trouble on the coast line services I used that day (which were crush loaded). Are you sure the BTP intervention was soccer related or is it usual story assume soccer fans are to blame for everything and not stag/hen parties or just general drunkards?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

That would have been Saturday November 13th 2021. Didn't see any such trouble on the coast line services I used that day (which were crush loaded). Are you sure the BTP intervention was soccer related or is it usual story assume soccer fans are to blame for everything and not stag/hen parties or just general drunkards?

Couple of (possibly drunk) women football supporters, if I correctly recall. Probably on the WCML (TPE) service, as the last direct Cumbrian Coast train for Barrow would have just gone by then.

 

[Pinus contorta]

So you would have a trainload of Barrow fans getting on at Barrow, any Barrow fans living in say Askam or Kirkby-in-Furness or Millom, etc., unable to board the train, then a load of Carlisle fans getting on at Whitehaven/Workington (also Harrington... this one was scheduled to call there!) and so on. If anything this is encouraging fanbase mixing and/or active discrimination against the Bluebirds diaspora outside of Barrow proper. Good thing they aren't even actual rivals anyway!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jan 2023 ==


That would have been Saturday November 13th 2021. Didn't see any such trouble on the coast line services I used that day (which were crush loaded). Are you sure the BTP intervention was soccer related or is it usual story assume soccer fans are to blame for everything and not stag/hen parties or just general drunkards?

Is there a BTP presence at Barrow? I don't know tbh. Running the train non stop Barrow to Whitehaven and then BTP ( who work out of Carlisle ) joining the train and appeasing any fan unrest from Whitehaven onwards seems a likely way of spreading a sparse/ thin rsource out . Given the long distances involved.

Off thread but someone told me the game last season you mention was dire , with no shots on target till injury time dull as ditch water ( or something along those lines) perhaps it was good that the game was called off this time?

 

[156421]

Is there a BTP presence at Barrow? I don't know tbh. Running the train non stop Barrow to Whitehaven and then BTP ( who work out of Carlisle ) joining the train and appeasing any fan unrest from Whitehaven onwards seems a likely way of spreading a sparse/ thin rsource out . Given the long distances involved.

Off thread but someone told me the game last season you mention was dire , with no shots on target till injury time dull as ditch water ( or something along those lines) perhaps it was good that the game was called off this time?

Sounds correct. Since then there was in fact a pizza cup game featuring firework-gate.