Why did BR go for the double arrow in the first place?

[StephenHunter]

Instead of a logo incorporating the "BR" letters in it like most railways have over the last 200 years?

 

[Gloster]

Instead of a logo incorporating the "BR" letters in it like most railways have over the last 200 years?

I suspect because a symbol was felt to be modern and, because it lacked letters, completely divorced from the ‘old-fashioned’ heraldic designs. BR was desperately trying to project a modern, with-it image completely different from the old steam age one, so a complete change was probably felt necessary.

 

[williamn]

If I remember correctly it was the result of a last minute change of mind. Luckily - they ended up with one of the most powerful and memorable logos of all time.

 

[Merthyr Imp]

If I remember correctly it was the result of a last minute change of mind. Luckily - they ended up with one of the most powerful and memorable logos of all time.

Very few people had a good word to say about it when it was introduced! Lots of scathing comments about barbed wire as I remember.

 

[StoneRoad]

Known as the "hadaway comeback arrahs" as I recall.

 

[The exile]

I suspect because a symbol was felt to be modern and, because it lacked letters, completely divorced from the ‘old-fashioned’ heraldic designs. BR was desperately trying to project a modern, with-it image completely different from the old steam age one, so a complete change was probably felt necessary.

No doubt an unintended consequence, but the advantage of a word/letter-less logo is that it can survive a change of name (or in this case more upheavals than in an earthquake zone).

 

[stuving]

Instead of a logo incorporating the "BR" letters in it like most railways have over the last 200 years?

Explicitly to make a break with the past and present a new look for the railways.

The "new look" was announced in January 1965 at the Design Centre in London. This kind of visual redesign exercise was a very sixties thing, and part of what the Design Council and Centre promoted.

The new look included the double arrow, the new livery colours of monastral blue and pearl grey (with flame red), the name British Rail, and signage using Rail Alphabet and "continental" symbols. These elements would be used in a major campaign of visual redesign across the network, applying the new image over a short period.

The adverse press comments I can find were mostly about the use of British Railways for the formal name of the organisation at the same time as British Rail for what we would call a brand name. That concept seems to have been unfamiliar to journalists!

There were also new uniforms, which certainly were mocked (but then they always are). Oh, and there was a round of fare increases - which obviously were not popular, but weren't meant as part of the new look.

 

[KevinBrum12]

Believe the BR double arrow may have been mocked as the "arrows of indecision", initially as the Beeching closures began to arrive on the Ministers desk but were held up (possibly because they and Number 10 were worried about how many marginal seats they went though), then in later years because of a lack of progress in modernisation. electrification and service improvements. Look at how many battles BR had to go through to get the InterCity 125 authorised and even then, they did not get the full number the British Railways Board thought were needed.

The new look included the double arrow, the new livery colours of monastral blue and pearl grey (with flame red), the name British Rail, and signage using Rail Alphabet and "continental" symbols. These elements would be used in a major campaign of visual redesign across the network, applying the new image over a short period.

It was quick-ish....and the reduction in the locomotive and rolling stock fleet helped. The last BR loco in pre-corporate identity green (a class 40) never saw a rail blue paintbrush and whilst there were pre-nationalisation LMS and LNER coaches that received blue and grey in the 60's, there were a few BR Standard coaches that held onto BR Maroon or Southern Region Green until well into the 1970's.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Believe the BR double arrow may have been mocked as the "arrows of indecision"

I always likened it to a diagrammatic representation of the directions of travel on a 'standard' British double track (one UP, one DOWN) line. Easy to spot the odd loco with it applied in reverse (at least one class 08 ISTR?).

 

[Buzby]

I always likened it to a diagrammatic representation of the directions of travel on a 'standard' British double track (one UP, one DOWN) line. Easy to spot the odd loco with it applied in reverse (at least one class 08 ISTR?).

Then there were the Sealink variations (the upper arrow always pointed forward - so was reversed on one side). Then there was the recent ’Iinnovation 200 Exhibition train’ - which carried a model of a modern station, complete with a reversed logo!

 

[ThirteenArches]

And the Dutch and Irish logos, at least, appear to have been inspired by it.

 

[birchesgreen]

I always likened it to a diagrammatic representation of the directions of travel on a 'standard' British double track (one UP, one DOWN) line. Easy to spot the odd loco with it applied in reverse (at least one class 08 ISTR?).

I saw a photo of a class 20 like that too.

Of course Sealink ferries being the "wrong way" too, but that was intentional.

 

[The exile]

And the Dutch and Irish logos, at least, appear to have been inspired by it.

Arguably the former Austrian one as well.

 

[John Webb]

In "British Rail 1948-78, a Journey by Design" (Brian Haresnape, Ian Allan, 1979) one diagram shows a number of alternatives the BR Design Panel looked at. They were more complex than the eventual double arrow logo in what appears to be an attempt to show the interconnectivity of the railway system. I'm left with the impression (there is no detailed explanation) that the final choice was made on the grounds of both simplicity and low cost!

 

[The exile]

Other than the white on green “S” on German S-Bahn systems what other current railway-logos pre-date the BR double arrow?
For the sake of clarity - “current” means “still being applied on a system-wide basis” (so no one-off applications for heritage or similar reasons)?

 

[43096]

Other than the white on green “S” on German S-Bahn systems what other current railway-logos pre-date the BR double arrow?
For the sake of clarity - “current” means “still being applied on a system-wide basis” (so no one-off applications for heritage or similar reasons)?

The roundel for the Underground?

 

[stuu]

Other than the white on green “S” on German S-Bahn systems what other current railway-logos pre-date the BR double arrow?
For the sake of clarity - “current” means “still being applied on a system-wide basis” (so no one-off applications for heritage or similar reasons)?

SNCB's is from the 1930s

 

[MotCO]

There were also new uniforms, which certainly were mocked (but then they always are).

Did that include the 'french gendarme' style of cap?

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Other than the white on green “S” on German S-Bahn systems what other current railway-logos pre-date the BR double arrow?

The London Underground roundel dates from 1908 according to the LT Museum.

The evolution of the roundel | London Transport Museum

The roundel, the symbol of London's public transport and a powerful icon of the city, is over 100 years old. Discover its history, from humble beginnings to a unified corporate identity we know today.

www.ltmuseum.co.uk

 

[pdeaves]

The London Underground roundel dates from 1908 according to the LT Museum.

The evolution of the roundel | London Transport Museum

The roundel, the symbol of London's public transport and a powerful icon of the city, is over 100 years old. Discover its history, from humble beginnings to a unified corporate identity we know today.

www.ltmuseum.co.uk

Albeit with some minor tweaks (though fundamentally the same).

Like the BR arrows it demonstrates longevity through simplicity and clarity.

 

[The exile]

The London Underground roundel dates from 1908 according to the LT Museum.

The evolution of the roundel | London Transport Museum

The roundel, the symbol of London's public transport and a powerful icon of the city, is over 100 years old. Discover its history, from humble beginnings to a unified corporate identity we know today.

www.ltmuseum.co.uk

Stupidly that one hadn’t even occurred to me!

 

[Davester50]

There's a good webpage here with the history of design on the railway.
The corporate logos on this page are here.

 

[birchesgreen]

British Rail Designed is a great book on this sort of thing. It goes into the design of the logo and some of the alternatives.

 

[StephenHunter]

Arguably the former Austrian one as well.

Israel as well.

 

[delt1c]

I always likened it to a diagrammatic representation of the directions of travel on a 'standard' British double track (one UP, one DOWN) line. Easy to spot the odd loco with it applied in reverse (at least one class 08 ISTR?).

Sign to Harlow Mill Station in 90's had it reversed , dont know if it still is

 

[Gloster]

It seems that the corporate identity was the child of a working party of BR’s design panel chaired by Milner Gray, one of the founders of industrial design. The idea for the arrows came from Gerry Barney, a junior member of Design Research Unit, a consultancy of which Gray was one of the leaders. Milner was supposed to have have been influenced by watching the the track on his commute in to London.

The reason for the arrows being to the standard design on the port side and reversed on the starboard is that it is maritime tradition to have arrows and the like pointing towards the bows: it seems that it was felt that with two arrows it should be the top one that pointed to the bows. A similar situation arose with flags, which are also reversed on one side as the upper arrow should point towards the flagpole.

 

[matchmaker]

How many remember this logo?

 

[stuving]

Did that include the 'french gendarme' style of cap?

Yes - also called "faintly German style" in one report. The designs had been shown a year earlier, and production uniforms tried out in a few places later in 1964. They were in the exhibition as part of the new look.

 

[AndrewP]

The great 'Beauty of Transport' website has a great article on the logo https://thebeautyoftransport.com/2022/12/14/rail-symbol-2/

 

[NER1621]

The London Underground roundel dates from 1908 according to the LT Museum.

Well, up to a point Lord Copper. The device in its current incarnation (a hollow circle and crossbar) dates from Edward Johnston’s work some ten years later. His design, squashed vertically, was also the basis for the BRB “sausage” totem (apparently because Lord Ashfield refused to let the nascent BTC adopt the bar and circle device for the nationalised mainline railways.)

The bar and circle device was called “the bullseye” until the DRU tweaked its proportions in the late 1960s, after which the preferred corporate name for the device became “roundel”.